Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

[anubis88]

I must completly dissagree with you. The elephant's are one of the strongest units by far in EB if used correctly. There is no non pike army that can stand their charge.

I always saved lot's of my soldiers lives by using elephants

[machinor]

Any Hellenistic monarch has to have elephants in his army. Period. Of course it is the show-off factor but those beasts are weapons of mass destruction in hellenistic warfare. Have them guarded by a unit of Peltastai who can chase away any enemy skirmishers. As soon as you disposed of them, you can bring the elephants into action. When the main battle lines are engaged, you can just steamroll the enemy line with your elephants. The best way to dispose of enemy elite infantry without getting overly high losses yourself. If the elephant charge will not break them, their line is in disorder and you can move in your elite infantry to chop them up.
Plus they are superior general killers if the enemy general is stupid enough to have his bodyguard unit engage into melee combat.

[Zett]

I still prefer my xystonboys



They are fast and cheap if compared to these "weapons of mass destruction in hellenistic warfare". BTW with "weapons of mass destruction in hellenistic warfare" you mean killing your own troops, right? Or is it just me who always fails in using them?

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Faramir D'Andunie]

Hippeis Xystophoroi, one gets to love em in KH campaigns.

As for elephants they are a double edged sword able to equally harm both you and your opponents. But such a sharp sword, able to inflict terrible wounds

[Ludens]

They are fast and cheap if compared to these "weapons of mass destruction in hellenistic warfare". BTW with "weapons of mass destruction in hellenistic warfare" you mean killing your own troops, right? Or is it just me who always fails in using them?

Elephants are tricky to use indeed. They cost an army and a leg, while cheap skirmisher units can and will kill them if you are careless. However, like chariots, they do have their uses. They are can bulldoze their way through pinned enemy phalanx-formations, tearing them up, destroying their formation and reducing their morale. They also are good at countercharging heavy cavalry. Personally, I use them to precede my heavy cavalry: this disrupts the enemy charging, making them easy pickings for my horsemen. Off course, you do need to keep light infantry and cavalry away, so always keep some skirmisher cavalry at hand (armed with bows or javelins, depending on the opposition). So, in brief:

1) Use elephants to destroy enemy formations and disrupting their charges: don't target a single enemy unit, keep them moving, and let other units do the killing.
2) Elephants work best in combination with light and heavy cavalry. Elephants cover and precede your heavy cavalry, light cavalry covers and precedes your elephants.

Using elephants against non-phalanx heavy infantry is a bit more risky, since these generally have a precursor weapon that can hurt an elephant. However, in my experience, if you keep your elephants moving they generally survive.

[BurningEGO]

Havent gotten my hands into those yet in EB, but THESE were weapons of mass destruction in normal RTW. I remember the countless Phalanx/Hoplites i smashed with them. Only thing that usually survived an Elephant charge were these damned Spartans.

But anyway, Elephants are expensive, yes, but they have devastating effects. Still remember how i usually blitzed Rome in the vanilla version. All these hastati fleeing in terror and awe from my elephants...

Although i must say that i find Elephants far more deadly using "Huge" sized units.

P.S: While your Phalanx line holds the enemy at bay, try a flank attack using your elephants... Nasty man, Nasty.

[antisocialmunky]

I was playing the Romans in custom and gave them two units of elephants. I was using a kinda realistic Macedonian army with some levies in it. The AI managed to punch a hole through a units of levies on the left flank with those elephants. Then they died but I was impressed that it managed to get that right.

No one mentioned my favorite use of elephants: Battering Rams so you don't have to sit for a season.

[machinor]

Using them as battering ram is a bit risky in my opinion. While one of them batters the gate, the others stand still, ideal targets for skirmishers (plus of course it's suicide to try to batter the gate of a city with stone walls with elephants). One has to be extra careful. If I don't want to wait to storm a city, I usually infiltrate it with spies, that's safer.

[antisocialmunky]

I usually have enough Cretans to supress any javelin shenanigans though going anywhere close to Dacia with Elephants seem rather unpleasant.

[machinor]

It's too bad you can't recruit Elephantes Kataphraktoi as Epeiros. Oh well, the standard Indians will have to suffice.

[Madlax]

Prodromoi (Successor Medium Cavalry)

I rarely use them ever since I saw the enemy light cavalry beating the crap out of them every time ( 1 on 1 ). They deliver a good charge ( in the back of the enemy that is ), but whenever I use them, it is to chase routing units or to buy some time for help to come when they engage enemy cavalry that wants to attack me in the back or flanks.

[Novellus]

Prodromoi (Successor Medium Cavalry)

I rarely use them ever since I saw the enemy light cavalry beating the crap out of them every time ( 1 on 1 ). They deliver a good charge ( in the back of the enemy that is ), but whenever I use them, it is to chase routing units or to buy some time for help to come when they engage enemy cavalry that wants to attack me in the back or flanks.

What? I love these guys! They're excellent when it comes to causing casualties among missile units. Some use them in Baktria in order to counter the horse archers since they have decent speed and stamina. I use the Prodromoi to knock out wavering opponents. They're like a light shock cavalry unit.

[BurningEGO]

Well, the first time i used these guys (the prodomoi cavalry), in VH/VH, i remember i charged them against a heavy peltastai unit... Worst thing i could ever do. In no time, my cavalry had been routed. So yeah, they rule.

I still use them sometimes, but they are ideal only for repeated rear attacks (charge, flee, charge, and repeat the same cycle over and over), or for killing routing enemies fast. I kinda dislike the extremely low attack that cavalry got in EB. Except for a few cavalry units.

[Marcus Ulpius]

Prodromoi are indeed weak. In my Mak campaign I thought they would deliver a good punch and charged them into a battle. In a short time they've started to drop in numbers and I had to retreat them.

I think they are quite similar to Roman bodyguards in their performance. They are good for rear charges, chasing routing troops or routing wavering units. However they'd be decimated in prolonged melee against most infantry and most cavalry (except may be the lightest and unarmored).

Their advantage is the price and very wide AOR for any Hellenistic faction.

[Tolg]

However they'd be decimated in prolonged melee against most infantry and most cavalry (except may be the lightest and unarmored).

You should never use cavalry in prolong melee. Even cataphracts will suffer far too many losses. Always have them charge and retreat, everything else is wasting their abilities.

[athanaric]

Well, the first time i used these guys (the prodomoi cavalry), in VH/VH, i remember i charged them against a heavy peltastai unit... Worst thing i could ever do. In no time, my cavalry had been routed. So yeah, they rule.

If you play on VH battle difficulty, it's your own fault. This game is recommended and balanced for "Medium" battle difficulty.
Prodromoi are not ideal in melee but they are excellent for other tasks.

[Tartaros]

What? I love these guys! They're excellent when it comes to causing casualties among missile units.

I always feel save with prodromoi by my side. for me "the" absolute standard for light cav!
Only hippeis tarantinoi are similar effective in use (for greeks factions).

[Chloe]

Yes, I was surprised when I saw the Tarentine cav! They are best in huge unit sizes, then they can squash almost anything, including general's bodyguards.

[machinor]

Totally agree on Hippeis Tarantinoi, they truely deserve to be called "Tarantine Elite Cavalry".

[Novellus]

I wish the Tarantinoi carried lances rather than javelins though.....

For some reason, it's like the javelins never seem to hit anything!

[Chloe]

I wish the Tarantinoi carried lances rather than javelins though.....

For some reason, it's like the javelins never seem to hit anything!

They are nice in hand-to-hand combat, though.

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah, I was very surprised to see how much more awesomer they became in 1.1/1.2. Before that they blew chunks.

[BurningEGO]

This game is recommended and balanced for "Medium" battle difficulty.

Real men only play the hardest mode. Sure, the AI units get some bonus, but even so battle generally speaking is hell easy.

[A Very Super Market]

No, it's hardly realistic, and it's "fake" difficulty. It's not the AI genuinely outmaneuvering you, it's units of Skirmishers beating the crap out of Spartans.

[BurningEGO]

If you think Skirmishers are bad, then try to face Saka's Noblemen... Ouch.

Took me an army of 2000 men to wipe out 400 of their horsemen. Even so i lost 1000 men! Massive Parthian Spearmen + Persian Archers ftw (actually wanted to use Parthian Horsemen, but my population in the provinces i can recruit them is terribly low).

[Cullhwch]

If you think Skirmishers are bad, then try to face Saka's Noblemen... Ouch.

Took me an army of 2000 men to wipe out 400 of their horsemen. Even so i lost 1000 men! Massive Parthian Spearmen + Persian Archers ftw (actually wanted to use Parthian Horsemen, but my population in the provinces i can recruit them is terribly low).

That sounds like the polar opposite of fun. Just play on medium battle difficulty.

[BurningEGO]

Medium is just too easy man. VH at least gives some challenges. I screamed like a crazy woman when i saw my pandotapoi killing the enemy general (for example).

[desert]

Are you really THAT good? I have to try pretty hard to win battles on Medium, and I'd rather not lose my armies fighting a unit of Peltastai on an enemy's walls.

What are you gonna do about the Central European fullstacks, huh? HUH? They have attack values in the 30s and DF in the 40s in VH! That's like a step away from godhood!

This is basically what you are dealing with:

[Arutima]

Are you really THAT good? I have to try pretty hard to win battles on Medium, and I'd rather not lose my armies fighting a unit of Peltastai on an enemy's walls.

What are you gonna do about the Central European fullstacks, huh? HUH? They have attack values in the 30s and DF in the 40s in VH! That's like a step away from godhood!

Let him have his fun. It almost equal stabbing yourself into the eys with rusty needles, but it's still his fun.


anyway. anyone who did a saba campaign must have really love the Abbir Ezra'him



They are not the most armored, but they do a great job, even against 2 silver chevrons, all elite yellow death stacks

[BurningEGO]

Well considerating i never assault castles (unless garrison is pathetically smaller then mine), i havent had any problems yet. Also i rarely got to fight in Central Europe since i usually play with some eastern nation. I usually stop my expansion westwards when i reach Rome. And sometimes when i am greedy i get Iberia and North africa too.

All nations, except for the Saka Rauka and Parthia (if you let them expand too much), proved to be too easy to beat in VH/VH. Again, i havent met nations (yet) like the one in great britain or the one in germany, but with a proper terrain advantage, all enemies can be beaten. And in this game there are so many rivers... (how many times did a river save my entire army and give me an heroic victory?)

Of course, i believe a campaign on VH/VH with some barbarian nation might prove... very hard indeed. Still, in my first campaign in EB, i annexed Macedonia and Rome at the same time as Epirus (VH/VH).

Regardless of what i dont understand that picture of yours. Care to elaborate?