Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

[antisocialmunky]

In Phalanx vs Phalanx, then you're going to die horribly with pantodapoi unless they too are using absolute craph phalanxes. These guys are axemen first, and phalangites second.

[Apázlinemjó]

I figured with a name like 'elite' they might be good. I was wrong.

Sadly, I have to agree with that, they can't even hold their lines, standard hoplites are much cheaper and better in that work (Post-Marians own them badly too). They aren't good flankers either, since don't have AP weapons and they are slow. If somebody wants a good sword unit as Pontos, then your target is Galatia.

P.S: They don't have 'elite' in their name.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Machimoi Phalangitai have 1 less armour than the Pantodapoi or Deuteroi. Deuteroi have a linthorax, whereas Machmoi have a padded vest. Also, both the Panatadapoi and machmoi have a 5-attack axe. Ridiculous. I modded the axe attack to 7 in my EDU. Five is just too low. Deuteroi have 7 sword attack. Keep all that in mind when you boast of the AP attack of the Eastern Levy Phalangites.

[HansDuet]

Pantodopoi Phalangitai fills its role well. Its rather a surprisingly good unit.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Pantodopoi Phalangitai fills its role well. Its rather a surprisingly good unit.

I agree. In my current Eperios Campaign, the Levy Phalanxes rule the world. Levy Phalanxes are the best EB surprisingly good units, along with light under-hand spear cavalry. Levy Pikes can hold any non-pike/heavy cav unit at bay for almost infinite amount of time, especially in street battles, whether offensive or defensive. As a bonus, due to having 5 shield, a stat unequalled by any other non-pike unit, the phalangites are nearly impervious to frontal missile fire.

[Watchman]

Machimoi Phalangitai have 1 less armour than the Pantodapoi or Deuteroi. Deuteroi have a linthorax, whereas Machmoi have a padded vest. Also, both the Panatadapoi and machmoi have a 5-attack axe. Ridiculous. I modded the axe attack to 7 in my EDU. Five is just too low. Deuteroi have 7 sword attack. Keep all that in mind when you boast of the AP attack of the Eastern Levy Phalangites.

Yeah well. Axes and maces take -1 to base attack value (to offset the AP and fairly high lethality), xiphos-type mid-sized swords give +1... see where that goes ?

Anyway, I've personally found the Panty pikes quite useful. But then again I don't even try to use them for "push of pike", but pin enemy pikes in place for flankers to destroy. Deep "box" formations and guardmode does well there.

As for the Pontic thorakitai, is that with or without the +2 to defskill (making it 11) recommended as a fix to make them viable ? (Goes for the closely related Hai armoured swordsmen too, incidentally.) The kit design is kinda bad, granted.

[Marcus Ulpius]

All phalanx units are surprisingly good simply because the AI has absolutely no clue how to fight them. The only thing that can trouble your army of levy phalanxes is the army of better phalanxes, but even then if you have some support troops you can still win the battle. With Macedonia I conquered Greece and kicked the AS out of western Asia Minor with levy phalanx armies.

[Fierro]

I agree. In my current Eperios Campaign, the Levy Phalanxes rule the world. Levy Phalanxes are the best EB surprisingly good units, along with light under-hand spear cavalry. Levy Pikes can hold any non-pike/heavy cav unit at bay for almost infinite amount of time, especially in street battles, whether offensive or defensive. As a bonus, due to having 5 shield, a stat unequalled by any other non-pike unit, the phalangites are nearly impervious to frontal missile fire.

What? In my current AS campaign my levy pikes get mauled by pretty much any unit other than light skirmishers/very light cavalry.
Pretty depressing seeing a cavalry unit charge right into a wall of pikes not only surviving but kicking the phalanx' ass.
(medium difficulty btw)

I think I might just have terrible luck though.
People are always complaining of the AI doing stupid things and pretty much every battle being a breeze. For me the AI may still be retarded but everything that can go wrong usually does. Very frustrating at times.

[Aemilius Paulus]

I think I might just have terrible luck though..

That, and mostly inexperience with phalanxes. As there are tens of tricks and various things you can do with a phalanx. Such as for one, put one phalanx on top of another, for extra pike density. And BTW, this is actually historical, as I do remember one EB Team member defending my tactic when I mentioned it in one of the past threads.

The whole point of a levy phalanx is that it can hold any infantry unit, absolutely regardless of its quality. I have destroyed the most elite and experienced units with the static levy phalanx, which they ground against.

Just remember, there are important weaknesses of a phalanx. One is heavy cavalry. It will get through the pikes and smash it, although this heavily depends on the circumstance. Most of the time, my double phalanx will hold the cavalry at bay, and dispatch any lone riders that get through. There are exceptions though. Sometimes cavalry will break through, although much of the time, it will lose the fight, especially against the axe-armed levy phalangites.

Then you have the enemy phalanxes. An enemy phalanx is the other of the two great dangers to your levy phalanx. However, I have never yet been beaten by an enemy phalanx, despite fielding the Epriote Deuteroi Phalangitai. The reason for that is mostly because AI will attack at an angle, meaning that while their pikes are still reaching for my soldiers, my pikes are already grinding their blokes. In any case, a duel with an enemy phalanx will decimate yours, unless you bring other units in the fray.

After those two man dangers, you have the minor ones. One of them is enemy officers/generals. I mean the single officer soldier and the single general soldier, not the units their in. While the rest of the bodyguard is held by the pikes, a general will often get through and chop down your phalangites one by one. His hydra-like hitpoints and high weapon stats will decimate your phalanx.

Officers have a similar although less significant effect. They too have numerous hitpoints and powerful weapons, enabling them to break through alone and wreak havoc. I had a single Hastati officer break through my 3-experience pikes and kill 25 of them ALONE before his unit routed. Scary stuff. What I normally do is get another unit to move in the place where the officer/general is attacking, and let them kill him, as the phalangites' pikes take forever to kill something.



The final weaknesses of your phalanxes are flanking and not getting enough time to form up. You can, through prudence, protect yourself against both, but the latter one is the most crucial one, although the latter problem only arises in street battles. Remember that the phalangites, once they stop, have to have some time to form up, until the yellow arrows indicating movement are gone from their unit card. Alternatively, to make them do it faster, you can press "Backspace" numerous times. Only when they halt and finally rearrange, only then can you order them to form a phalanx. If ordered earlier, the phalangites will do their dreaded rearrangement move, where they all get into a circle and I am sure you ahve seen it before...

Last tip: when fighting in the phalanx mode, remember to continuously press "Backspace" for the soldiers to switch to pikes and to stop fighting (the red crassed-swords icon) as a pike phalanx only needs to stand still as the enemy sewers themselves onto the pikes. Otherwise, your phalangites will become tired.

[HansDuet]

What? In my current AS campaign my levy pikes get mauled by pretty much any unit other than light skirmishers/very light cavalry.
Pretty depressing seeing a cavalry unit charge right into a wall of pikes not only surviving but kicking the phalanx' ass.
(medium difficulty btw)

Well they are levies, the crappiest of the crappiest and really not meant for beating anything in fair fight. However, they are cheap numbers and can make a difference by holding enemy still those seconds you need to maneuver your cavalry behind the enemy lines and... bang.

Very useful.

[A Very Super Market]

That would be against the point of a phalanx, or any other long speared weapon. Their main goal is to keep the enemy at bay, and leave the unit itself relatively safe. I don't know what difficulty you're playing on, but if your phalanxes last a few seconds before disintegrating, someting is wrong.

[K-Dogs]

Surprisingly Bad


I know these bad boys have been mentioned already, but i don't really agree with the guy who said they were amazing. Maybe I got caught up in the hype, "the people the romans couldn't conquer", or that that quote from Tacitus by the Caledonian leader, but trekking up into the highlands as the Casse on my first campaign, I was expecting something a bit cooler, or more numerous, when I got up into scotland.

They just seemed to drop like flies when I sent in Lugoae, maybe in greater numbers they would have been effective, or maybe a defense script for a nice chevroned army of them. I was playing on VH/H, and it was pretty anticlimactic.

Getting the message, 'you've united britain' or whatever was a bit strange after I just crushed their tiny army.
And they're no use once you invade the continent because the AOR is so bloody far away from anywhere else.

[Fierro]

That, and mostly inexperience with phalanxes. As there are tens of tricks and various things you can do with a phalanx. Such as for one, put one phalanx on top of another, for extra pike density. And BTW, this is actually historical, as I do remember one EB Team member defending my tactic when I mentioned it in one of the past threads.

The whole point of a levy phalanx is that it can hold any infantry unit, absolutely regardless of its quality. I have destroyed the most elite and experienced units with the static levy phalanx, which they ground against.

Just remember, there are important weaknesses of a phalanx. One is heavy cavalry. It will get through the pikes and smash it, although this heavily depends on the circumstance. Most of the time, my double phalanx will hold the cavalry at bay, and dispatch any lone riders that get through. There are exceptions though. Sometimes cavalry will break through, although much of the time, it will lose the fight, especially against the axe-armed levy phalangites.

Then you have the enemy phalanxes. An enemy phalanx is the other of the two great dangers to your levy phalanx. However, I have never yet been beaten by an enemy phalanx, despite fielding the Epriote Deuteroi Phalangitai. The reason for that is mostly because AI will attack at an angle, meaning that while their pikes are still reaching for my soldiers, my pikes are already grinding their blokes. In any case, a duel with an enemy phalanx will decimate yours, unless you bring other units in the fray.

After those two man dangers, you have the minor ones. One of them is enemy officers/generals. I mean the single officer soldier and the single general soldier, not the units their in. While the rest of the bodyguard is held by the pikes, a general will often get through and chop down your phalangites one by one. His hydra-like hitpoints and high weapon stats will decimate your phalanx.

Officers have a similar although less significant effect. They too have numerous hitpoints and powerful weapons, enabling them to break through alone and wreak havoc. I had a single Hastati officer break through my 3-experience pikes and kill 25 of them ALONE before his unit routed. Scary stuff. What I normally do is get another unit to move in the place where the officer/general is attacking, and let them kill him, as the phalangites' pikes take forever to kill something.



The final weaknesses of your phalanxes are flanking and not getting enough time to form up. You can, through prudence, protect yourself against both, but the latter one is the most crucial one, although the latter problem only arises in street battles. Remember that the phalangites, once they stop, have to have some time to form up, until the yellow arrows indicating movement are gone from their unit card. Alternatively, to make them do it faster, you can press "Backspace" numerous times. Only when they halt and finally rearrange, only then can you order them to form a phalanx. If ordered earlier, the phalangites will do their dreaded rearrangement move, where they all get into a circle and I am sure you ahve seen it before...

Last tip: when fighting in the phalanx mode, remember to continuously press "Backspace" for the soldiers to switch to pikes and to stop fighting (the red crassed-swords icon) as a pike phalanx only needs to stand still as the enemy sewers themselves onto the pikes. Otherwise, your phalangites will become tired.

Thanks for the post.
I agree that one of my weaknesses might be not getting enough time to form up. City battles have a tendency of really making me want to break my keyboard in half! Why is it that the pathfinding is so screwed up? random spots will be inaccessible, formations will run into invisible obstacles and the entire formation will be broken. The city square makes absolutely no sense as sometimes units will run to a far corner corner when you only tell them to move 5 steps to the front. I've had phalanxes in the street sometimes do a full three rotations before finally being in formation, then there's always one or two slow guys that have to run to their spot and THEN do all the pikes finally come down adn the phalanx acts as a single unit but by then the enemy's swords are already covered in phalanx blood..

[Apázlinemjó]

As for the Pontic thorakitai, is that with or without the +2 to defskill (making it 11) recommended as a fix to make them viable ? (Goes for the closely related Hai armoured swordsmen too, incidentally.) The kit design is kinda bad, granted.

Without +2 defskill, although I don't think it would change the situation that much.

[AttilaDerHunn]

lusotanan infantry are killers on the walls,caetrati wasted my loricati scutarii on the walls,and the ambakaro almost wiped out my vollorix

[Watchman]

Without +2 defskill, although I don't think it would change the situation that much.

Of course it does. The units are *all about* their stats.

[Apázlinemjó]

Of course it does. The units are *all about* their stats.

But +2 def skill? I don't think it's enough then, I'd played some custom battles, comparing these guys to other units, like Post Marians, Thracian Peltastai, German Swordsmen and such, and well...they lost, badly.

[Watchman]

Their problem is that they're too lightly armoured and shielded for their tactical role; slightly lighter than eg. Marian legionaries, though they are of superior skill level, and noticeably lighter than the common Thorakitai of the same quality level. Compare:

;504
type             eastern infantry pontic thorakitai
dictionary       eastern_infantry_pontic_thorakitai      ; Pontic Thorakitai
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       Heavy_1
soldier          eastern_infantry_mardig_georgian_swordsmen_pontic_thorakitai_parthohellenikoi_thureophoroi, 40, 0, 1.15, 0.25
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation        1.2, 1.6, 2.4, 3.2, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         6, 4, javelin, 35, 2, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown
stat_sec         12, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.1
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  9, 9, 3, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        4
stat_ground      0, 0, 0, -2
stat_mental      13, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1813, 453, 196, 374, 1813
ownership        carthage

;241
type             roman infantry legionary cohort i
dictionary       roman_infantry_legionary_cohort_i      ; Cohortes Reformata
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       General_1
soldier          roman_infantry_cohorsreformata, 50, 0, 1.18, 0.25
officer          ebofficer_roman_centurion
officer          ebofficer_roman_early_standard
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation        1, 2, 2, 3, 5, square, testudo
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         4, 4, pilum, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown, ap
stat_sec         11, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  10, 8, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        4
stat_ground      0, 0, -2, -2
stat_mental      14, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1790, 448, 100, 160, 1790
ownership        seleucid, slave

;177
type             greek infantry thorakitai
dictionary       greek_infantry_thorakitai      ; Thorakitai
category         infantry
class            spearmen
voice_type       Female_1
soldier          carthaginian_infantry_lybianspearmen_thorakitai_scortamavera, 40, 0, 1.18, 0.25
officer          ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer          ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
mount_effect     elephant -1
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap
formation        1, 1.4, 2, 2.8, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         6, 6, javelin, 35, 3, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown
stat_sec         15, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    light_spear
stat_pri_armour  12, 9, 3, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        5
stat_ground      0, 0, -2, -3
stat_mental      13, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1910, 478, 40, 60, 1910
ownership        romans_brutii, romans_julii, greek_cities, numidia, thrace

21 to 22 or 24 totals; the +2 ought to RATHER help bridge the gap. (Ditto for the virtually identical Armenian heavy swordsmen, natch.)
On the plus side, they're faster moving than the other two and "hardy", unlike the usual Thoras.

[Maion Maroneios]

Indeed, they have better stamina. I've found them to be quite a pain in the rear, actually. They were able to keep their own against my pikemen for a long time, plus they gave my Thureophoroi and Peltastai a nasty surprise.

Maion

[athanaric]

Perhaps the horribly low lethality of their swords (0.1) might be a big part of their weakness. It is no wonder they lost in the test against Germanic swordsmen, who sport Celtic longswords, or against the even nastier Thracians.

[Watchman]

The difference to the xiphos, sica and similar slightly larger swords, spears and the "improved" Iberian shortsword is a mere 0.03, though... hardly very decisive, and in any case the norm for short swords.

[Apázlinemjó]

The difference to the xiphos, sica and similar slightly larger swords, spears and the "improved" Iberian shortsword is a mere 0.03, though... hardly very decisive, and in any case the norm for short swords.

Okay, maybe with that +2 def skill, but still they aren't that good. They are quite vulnerable against cavalry, don't have AP weapons, low lethality, average numbers, average moral, and quite expensive. I like the Galatikoi Kuarothoroi more, they cost more a bit, however they have spears and long swords, and they are better armored too.

type             galatian infantry kuarothori
dictionary       galatian_infantry_kuarothori      ; Galatikoi Kuarothoroi
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       General_1
soldier          celtic_infantry_arjos_rycalawre_solduros_kuarothoroi, 40, 0, 1.18
mount_effect     elephant -2
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest
formation        0.85, 1.1, 1.8, 2.6, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         11, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.225
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         16, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    light_spear
stat_pri_armour  12, 10, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        4
stat_ground      0, 0, -1, -1
stat_mental      13, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 2092, 523, 80, 130, 2092
ownership        carthage, romans_julii, seleucid, macedon

[Chris1959]

Scorpiones!!! The General killers, never know a single type kill so many FM's outside routes.
Best used when you are the attacker, though useless in woods. Once killed 4 out of 5 KH FM's in a single battle, foot generals are particularly vunerable, in fact they are so deadly I have to ration myself to 5 units in the whole Empire and never more than 1 per Consular army.
Though there is this little guy with his hands behind his back at the rear of the unit who keeps muttering something about "Grande Batteries"......

[Tartaros]

Surprisingly BAD



in my sele campaign i wanted to build a native force (to secure and kill rebels) in babylon/media. So i recuite sipri tukul, toxotai syriakoi (both are great!) and Asabaran-i Madaen.

But they are so disapointing... it seems that they don´t have the punch for the hammer tactic (desc. 27), sometime they a in full speed and stop before the enemybacklines. They have no second melee-weapon and the short cav-speer is to bad. they´re also ineffective to kill fleeing enemys. they share a lot of time, by riding along and doing nothing. Compared with the greek hippeis they are surprisingly bad.

[Cute Wolf]

Hey, at least they are still capable to fight well against another cav...

[Ca Putt]

Oh I first thought you meant that the whole class of overhand medium cavalry is bad but then I read

Compared with the greek hippeis they are surprisingly bad.

:D Ok that realy is bad, one uint more I'll not recruit :D to be honest I never had a unit of them only the rather similar looking Eastern mediums in my first campaign.

[Tartaros]

ohh, that´s right. the eastern mediums are still out there. they have the exact same stats and costs. hopefully they do a better job.

but i normally prefer the red ferrari´s (seleucid prodromoi).

[Ca Putt]

I didn't say they are good they only do a decent job at intercepting Lance cav and keeping ranged units(when psiloi, they can even kill them :D) ocupied which is rather usefull when playing as KH, I just don'T like it when my flankers are shot upon ^^. As I had experience with hippeis I never realy used them for anything else. maybe sometimes as backup for my prodromoi.

Prodromoi, that's a different story they are definately worth it.

[Tartaros]

i remember a epeiros game where i fight nearly all battle very successfull with hippeis. there was no need for other cavalary.

[Watchman]

Okay, maybe with that +2 def skill, but still they aren't that good. They are quite vulnerable against cavalry, don't have AP weapons, low lethality, average numbers, average moral, and quite expensive. I like the Galatikoi Kuarothoroi more, they cost more a bit, however they have spears and long swords, and they are better armored too.

*shrug* Barb units get a minor freebie stat boost, so there's that too.

Note however that the Pontic Thoras are faster, have lower MIC preqs, and IIRC are more widely available. All together, the two really fill a different tactical niche.

in my sele campaign i wanted to build a native force (to secure and kill rebels) in babylon/media. So i recuite sipri tukul, toxotai syriakoi (both are great!) and Asabaran-i Madaen.

But they are so disapointing... it seems that they don´t have the punch for the hammer tactic (desc. 27), sometime they a in full speed and stop before the enemybacklines. They have no second melee-weapon and the short cav-speer is to bad.

Wait, what ?

;212
type             eastern cavalry mada asabara
dictionary       eastern_cavalry_mada_asabara      ; Mada Asabara
category         cavalry
class            light
voice_type       General_1
soldier          eastern_cavalry_aspet_kappadocian_mediancavalry, 25, 0, 1, 0.3
mount            saddle horse light
mount_effect     chariot +1
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, very_hardy
formation        1.5, 4, 3, 6, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         8, 27, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 160 ,0.15
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         7, 15, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, axe, 0 ,0.165
stat_sec_attr    ap
stat_pri_armour  8, 8, 2, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        3
stat_ground      0, 0, -3, -1
stat_mental      11, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 2176, 544, 40, 90, 2176
ownership        romans_brutii, romans_julii, egypt, parthia, pontus, saba

What part of that looks like "no secondary" to you ? (...and why does that spear still have the old 160 attack delay ? Must've missed it at some point...)

they´re also ineffective to kill fleeing enemys. they share a lot of time, by riding along and doing nothing.

That's the usual pathfinding idiocy when chasing routers, not anything to do with the units. Micromanage, grasshopper.