Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

[Apázlinemjó]

Spearmen and Heavy cavalry can destroy them very fast, so you have to use them carefully or they begin to rout or run amok and get you a sad defeat.

[antisocialmunky]

Its pretty funny when they run amok into your elephants and rout them.

[Apázlinemjó]

Its pretty funny when they run amok into your elephants and rout them.

Chain run amok, rofl, never seen that yet.

[Apraxiteles]

Don't charge cataphracts with them. They die in hilarious fashion.

Huh. When I tested them one on one versus Hellenikoi and Hetairoi Kataphraktoi, the Scythed Chariots ate them for breakfast, taking very few casualties. I tend to use them for exactly that purpose. All those spikes are AP, and seem to chew right through armored horses like a huge meat-grinder. But then, maybe it depends on which ones you're using. The Seleukid ones have 4 more armor points than the Pontic ones.

Also, chain run-amok with chariots and elephants is the most hilariously destructive thing ever.

[Companion Cavalry]

For the category of "surprising goodly" I nominate the Dahai Hippotoxotae.
Useful, unless going up against other horse-archers.

[Ibrahim]

Chain run amok, rofl, never seen that yet.

I have. it can quite literally be a bloody mess. I had that with the Pontus army while I was playing as A.S. ; my peltastai threw a hail of javelins that killed a few charioteers, which caused the horses to jerk in most inconvenient ways-this led them to crash into their own men, including another squad of chariots, and they in turn jerked in inconvenient ways. I practically won the battle without most of the men charging sarrissas.

no elephants were used, but its still hilarious to watch.

seriously,though, chain run amoks can be nasty.

[satalexton]

amok units hurt both sides don't they? lucky they didn't run into you

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I used to do 20 on 20 unit battles in Vanilla and by far the most fun were either 20 wardogs on 20 wardogs or 20 ellies on 20 ellies. The elephant battles were determined by who had the best luck in having the last unit of elephants to run amok.

[satalexton]

A break from my philhellenic traditions.

No where near as solid as true hoplitai, they have swords. They can hold anything short of a catank charge, and can go toe to toe against the barbaroi in a chop-fest thanks to their large aspis. While that's happening, MY catanks can wheel around and literally mow them barbaroi from behind.

[Companion Cavalry]

These chaps can hold their ground against barbaroi swordsmen for surprising lengths of time,
while the heavy cavalry crush the enemy wings, wheel around, and charge the enemy infantry.

[Ibrahim]

amok units hurt both sides don't they? lucky they didn't run into you

yes they do so to both sides. I had that happen once when I was in IBFD, but luckily javelinmen were vailable to knock them down-not before I lost 150 men from the rampaging elephants. (yes, I did win the battle)

[godsakes]

Another good:
Iberian Assault Infantry


Exclusively Carthaginian unit. Again excellent ratio: price/effectiveness.

They beat most infantry units available in the game, for example any roman infantry unit 1 on 1, all phalanxes units 1 on1 (if they have access to their sides). Only most expensive infantry elites can beat them, but it means it must be much more expensive infantry than 2239 mnai.
They are good against missiles because of armor.

Their weaknesses are: - they got exhausted quickly as heavy inf, they must avoid chariots and they are less effective against cav then spearmen.
The best use is against infantry lines of any type.

they're a great unit, but one of their flaws is their weapons can't be upgraded

i tend to find by the time i can get them, i've long since held italy and been spitting out (upgraded) samite heavy infantry and conentrate on recuriting pikemen in the home regions

[satalexton]

they, like all karchdoi reform units, have an extra attack point put into account for the 'cant be upgraded' trait. The reasoning is that you are assumed to have built blacksmiths in all of your major recruiting centres.

[dragoon47]

I found the Holitai Haploi to be a surprisingly good unit too. When I was conquering Greece I once had one unit of them try to hold off the Spartan general while my phalangites ate up their main line and they were still fighting them when I was done with the rest of the army, albeit having taken nearly 60% losses, but their losses alone without routing shows their strange resilience, especially with a general unit behind them cheering them on.

EDIT: I probably should also mention that those Spartans may have been in guard mode, so that's another lucky thing, otherwise I think they would have just plowed through the Hoplitai.

[Watchman]

they're a great unit, but one of their flaws is their weapons can't be upgraded

As with all the "siege reform" units with un-upgradeable weapons, they already have the +1 to both attacks factored in.

[godsakes]

As with all the "siege reform" units with un-upgradeable weapons, they already have the +1 to both attacks factored in.

aye, i'm just pointing out that if you already have italy capable of producing upgraded (via blacksmith/temple/gov 4) samite heavy infantry - i'd argue they're a better value alternative and strategically i personally (in the home regions) produce mostly pikemen & calvary ship them off to italy to be reinforced by samite heavy infantry & hastati and maybe the odd classical hospite before moving them on (maybe adding some cretan archers if they're on the way)

the iberian unit would still have better morale and would last longer in a really prolonged battle, or if they were being used as line infantry. So while i can accept they are a better unit, rarely do i find myself in a situation where i need the iberian version over the (cheaper) samite version (but bare in mind i do gear my southern cites in italy for war production - so i get temple/gov4/blacksmiths bonuses)

[antisocialmunky]

Huh. When I tested them one on one versus Hellenikoi and Hetairoi Kataphraktoi, the Scythed Chariots ate them for breakfast, taking very few casualties. I tend to use them for exactly that purpose. All those spikes are AP, and seem to chew right through armored horses like a huge meat-grinder. But then, maybe it depends on which ones you're using. The Seleukid ones have 4 more armor points than the Pontic ones.

Also, chain run-amok with chariots and elephants is the most hilariously destructive thing ever.

In several online battles using Baktria in a heavlong charge vs Scythed chariots, Baktrian Super Kataphracts win every time. Now, if the horses don't go for a straight charge... well poop. You lose.

[Apraxiteles]

Ah, that explains it. They can't handle the cataphract charge. Interesting. If I ever start playing online battles, I'll have to remember that.

[athanaric]

I have. it can quite literally be a bloody mess. I had that with the Pontus army while I was playing as A.S. ; my peltastai threw a hail of javelins that killed a few charioteers, which caused the horses to jerk in most inconvenient ways-this led them to crash into their own men, including another squad of chariots, and they in turn jerked in inconvenient ways. I practically won the battle without most of the men charging sarrissas.

I once won a not-really-serious custom battle with basically 1 unit of Arab Archer-Spearmen: They shot flaming arrows at the advancing chariots, causing them to run amok instantly and run back straight into a unit of 100 Asiatikoi Hippakontistai, all of whom were killed by their own chariot "friends"! My archers meanwhile were unscathed...

[Andy1984]

Huh. When I tested them one on one versus Hellenikoi and Hetairoi Kataphraktoi, the Scythed Chariots ate them for breakfast, taking very few casualties. I tend to use them for exactly that purpose. All those spikes are AP, and seem to chew right through armored horses like a huge meat-grinder. But then, maybe it depends on which ones you're using. The Seleukid ones have 4 more armor points than the Pontic ones.

Also, chain run-amok with chariots and elephants is the most hilariously destructive thing ever.

It depends on how you use them and in what situation you're in. Charge them frontally into an unengaged unit of heavy cavalry and your chariots are done. Charge them in loose formation through a unit of cavalry that is moving or shattered for some reason, and the cavalry is done.

Agreed, they can be taken out quite easily, but then they do only have an upkeep of 900... which is less then most heavy cavalry units.

About the amok feature: I had more than once enemy elephants running amok through streets, killing another unit of enemy elephants... and basically routing an attacking army that way. Making elephants run amok in a city (or chariots) is to me something like a 'last defensive option'. (Yes I admit to have 'sacrificed' my chariots for that specific purpose in the past...)

[antisocialmunky]

I've always wanted to like 400 elephants up and shoot one in the left so they domino.

[WinsingtonIII]

No, the Getic phalanxes don't have AP. Their secondary weapon, like the Komatai, is the sica, which isn't AP.

That doesn't make them any less *awesome*, though. They are your best line infantry, well able to hold anything attacking from the front in place so that you can flank with Drapanai and the like.

And to disagree with WinsingtonIII here: I think that the Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai (Dacian Heavy Phalanx) is among the best heavy spearmen units available.

And as for the Boii Cingetos: admittedly, I haven't used them yet, but I might have an idea on how you (APX) tried to employ them. They are not meant to be thrown headlong into the frontal assault. With only 7 armor, they are prone to death by missiles. Rather, use them to flank the enemy.

Oh I agree that they're very good spearmen, I was just saying that you can't expect them to do anything ridiculous, but if you use them properly as pinners they're very good. I just used a poor choice of words there saying that they aren't the best heavy spearmen. I think what I meant is that they aren't very versatile compared to your other infantry as the Getai (but this isn't really fair because the Getai have some of the most versatile infantry in the game).

[DaciaJC]

Oh I agree that they're very good spearmen, I was just saying that you can't expect them to do anything ridiculous, but if you use them properly as pinners they're very good. I just used a poor choice of words there saying that they aren't the best heavy spearmen. I think what I meant is that they aren't very versatile compared to your other infantry as the Getai (but this isn't really fair because the Getai have some of the most versatile infantry in the game).

Got ya. Yes, they have a specific role, but they excel in that role.

[Companion Cavalry]

Highly efficient elephant killers, and, for their cost, excellent at skirmishing. Due to their unit size, they literally shower enemy lines with javelins. As a bonus, these guys can be recruited a stone's throw away from the Indian regions, where you'll be facing eleutheroi stacks with elephants.

[satalexton]

agree. I use these dudes to screen my catanks. I export them all the way to Italia (as Baktra) to serve as assault troops, which they do surprisingly well at >=D

[WinsingtonIII]

Got ya. Yes, they have a specific role, but they excel in that role.

I also like to use them because I feel like it's historically inaccurate to neglect them and just use Drapanai and Komatai. Their description does say that they are the "nucleus of the getic infantry line" or something like that.

[Ludens]

For example I've read of this one guy who arrived at his post as the commander of a legion stationed in Syria or thereabouts (during one of those lulls in the sporadic wars with the Iranians natch) only to find out his new underlings were by *far* more competent in gambling and whoring than soldiering.
So he took them to military exercises in the Armenian highlands...

That was Gnaeus Domitius Corbulo. According to one chronicler he even found soldiers that had sold their armour. Goldsworthy does caution that tales of famous commanders finding their new command in a dismal state and immediately impose a strict discipline, are something of a Roman literary cliché.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

*BUMP*



I hold these guys in high esteem. My Pontos campaign taught me this, alas - Put them on the flank of a phalanx and they'll be extremely valuable. They hardly die alas! Plus they are quite cheap and numerous for elite infantry, which is what the free exp and weapon upgrades turn them into once Ankyra gets a decent infrastructure.

In fact I favour them over the Galatian Wild Men. The East is full of archers and missile troops which can massacre them, but the Kuarothoroi are extremely well armoured, have a better shield and thus are much stronger under missile fire.

I didn't build Galatian Heavy Cavalry since it requires a level 4 regional MIC, but once I finish up building Ankara I'll switch govts. and build it. Needless to say Galatians provide almost everything you need in a Pontos campaign: superior heavy infantry, the best heavy cavalry you can get mid-game plus good, cheap and flexible light infantry. And the best light cavalry in the world (Leuce Epos), IMO.

[Julius Augustus]

I don't know why, but in my experience, Pontic heavy spearmen haven't been too effective. A unit of legionnarries can beat them, as can agrianikoi pelikophoroi. They are not bad, they are just not cost effective.

[athanaric]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

*BUMP*

I hold these guys in high esteem. My Pontos campaign taught me this, alas - Put them on the flank of a phalanx and they'll be extremely valuable. They hardly die alas! Plus they are quite cheap and numerous for elite infantry, which is what the free exp and weapon upgrades turn them into once Ankyra gets a decent infrastructure.

Yes, but OTOH they aren't ideal on walls because they insist on using their spears up there. Not so very long ago I had a siege battle as Makedonia against the Getai, where I put these men up against a unit of Agema Orditon - only to experience a retarded spear-"duel" on the wall. (The Ordes won, btw., being an elite unit while the Kuarothoroi are just heavy infantry, which means I had to remove the Ordes manually with some falxmen or axemen).

In fact I favour them over the Galatian Wild Men. The East is full of archers and missile troops which can massacre them, but the Kuarothoroi are extremely well armoured, have a better shield and thus are much stronger under missile fire.

The shield value of Tindanotae and Kuarothoroi is the same (4), however the armour stats are different enough (12 vs. 5). I, too, slightly favour the Kuarothoroi because they are more versatile (IMO) and because of their being less exhibitionist.


Edit:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A break from my philhellenic traditions.

No where near as solid as true hoplitai, they have swords. They can hold anything short of a catank charge, and can go toe to toe against the barbaroi in a chop-fest thanks to their large aspis. While that's happening, MY catanks can wheel around and literally mow them barbaroi from behind.

I second that. I didn't expect too much of these guys, however they proved quite capable against both cavalry and infantry and are a very valuable asset for any Pahlava player. The downside is though that they are only available at a lvl 4 MIC.