English! Who talks funny?

[Dodge_272]

My regional English accent is derived from Viking settlers, so it's probably a bit older than the US of A.

[Fisherking]

My regional English accent is derived from Viking settlers, so it's probably a bit older than the US of A.

Humm, could be.

You want to test it?

Do you pronounce settlers as:

a. set’lahs

b.set-tel-ers

c. some other way

If you are dropping your R’s then the accent may have modified.

However, I doubt your Viking ancestors would understand the language as it is spoken today.

[Incongruous]

With Australia, like NZ, the accent has been moving further and further away from the original as can be witnessed by recording from the 19th to early 20th centuries, the pronounciation of dance instead of dah'nce is a recent development as can be evidenced by my great aunt's way of talking. Also, there is a slight inflection on the American pronounciation of dance which does not exist in the Australian form, which would lead me to believe that the two are unconnected in terms of the development of pronounciation. As I said in NZ people used to sound much the same way as they did back in the Homeland, my great-Grandfather spoke in a very strong Scots accent as did most of the people from the South Island. It is interesting to note that, in Invercargil, an area of hight Scots immigration they now pronounce many words with an accent almost indistinguishable from an American one.

Also, you said that the British aristocracy changed the way it pronounced words in the early 19th cen. whereas the majority of British immigartion to Oz occured much later and I find it hard to beleive that the majority of new settlers changed their dialect for the sake of fitting in with the old colonial minority.

[Fisherking]

I have heard it said that the New Zealand accent is more British than the British. I assume they are talking about the North Island, but I have so little experience with it I couldn’t say.

Accents today are leveling to a vast degree because of mass media. What they were before the advent of TV and Radio is nothing like what they were before. We tend to talk like those around us or those we hear. It can be conscious or unconscious but the phenomenon exists. Also we live in a highly mobile society, which also has its effect.

The way my grand parents spoke was different than my parents and I in turn sound little like they did. My children have a different way of speaking still.

In another language all to gather, German, I have noticed another phenomenon which would also fit in to the way things change. There is a train voice announcement for a station. The locals have called the town Easting, with a strong emphasis on the E as in English. The Announcer from some where in North Germany calls the town eS’ting. Now those from other places along with a good deal of the locals have adopted that pronunciation for a town that is so old it could make you cry.

It may seem like an insignificant change to most people who no nothing of German place names. But when most places would have names in English of say Upper or Lower pig stream, the Nut Tree Grove, or the Roman’s Farms, then you realize this place had a Celtic original name that makes no sense to a north German you begin to see what is lost.

I have known linguist that could do an amazing job of guessing your parentage and ancestry just by holding a conversation with you. All the more amazing in America where everyone’s ancestors came from so diverse nations in the distant past. Subtleties and nuances in speech tell them much more than most of us could guess.

The first time I heard a voice recording of my self, I thought I must be gay. It didn’t sound like any of my friends, but betrayed my class and region of origin. I was shocked! That class does not really exist today and the regional accent has also changed. Most have leveled. This is also true in Brittan.

Somehow, I developed a generic accent, though it was not deliberate, but a few days with relatives will cause it to revert.

Most of us tend to develop the way of speaking which we here most. For a lot of us in the workplace is full of people of various regions, and the News Readers all sound much the same.

A couple of years ago I had a class with about 20 Germans who all spoke English. Several, perhaps eight of them has spent some time in Ireland. All spoke English with a pronounced Irish accent, but you could tell which studied in Cork to those who studied in Dublin, even through the typical German/English accent.

The outside world does have an impact on how we sound and I can only surmise that eventually we will all sound much more alike.

[InsaneApache]

Humm, could be.

You want to test it?

Do you pronounce settlers as:

a. set’lahs

b.set-tel-ers

c. some other way

If you are dropping your R’s then the accent may have modified.

However, I doubt your Viking ancestors would understand the language as it is spoken today.

I'm guessing that he's a northener so he would use flat vowels a lot.

a. set’lahs

b.set-tel-ers

c. some other way

Most likely pronounced set' lurs.

Depending on which side of the Pennines you came from. I was born in Lancashire and mainly lived there until I was twenty. After 29 years of living in Yorkshire my accent is all over the place.

When i hear myself on recordings the persons I most sound like, that you may know about, would be a Sean Bean/Christopher Eccleston hybrid.

Now anyone from the north of England would instantly 'hear' the differences between Seans and Christophers accents. Folks from 'darn sarf' would not hear the difference and I know for certain a yank wouldn't.

When my dads present wife first arrived over here about 10 years ago from Jacksonville, she was astonished at how diverse the accents were just within a 10 mile radius. My dad took her on a grand tour of the UK from the southwest, Wales, south east and Scotland. In fact the only place they didn't go to was the six counties. I remember her saying after she'd been to Somerset and Devon how she could hear traces of the American accent. Even more so after visiting Wales.

One of the funniest things was the first time we all met up. My dad threw a dinner party and invited my wife and I, my kids (both grown up in their 20s), their kids and my brother. Oh and just to add a bit more spice to the mix my old mate who's a Scouser.

She literally didn't understand a word we were saying. She just sat there looking bemused and saying "what?" a lot.

[Fisherking]

Now anyone from the north of England would instantly 'hear' the differences between Seans and Christophers accents. Folks from 'darn sarf' would not hear the difference and I know for certain a yank wouldn't.

That might depend on the yank, especially the age of the yank…

When I was a kid south Florida sounded southern, today it sounds like south Brookland with a Yiddish twist…

[Dodge_272]

Humm, could be.

You want to test it?

Do you pronounce settlers as:

a. set’lahs

b.set-tel-ers

c. some other way

If you are dropping your R’s then the accent may have modified.

However, I doubt your Viking ancestors would understand the language as it is spoken today.

Set'laz. You'd have to hear someone say it as in talking directly to you though. As we all know, the Geordie accent should be banned from being broadcast on television.

[Don Esteban]

Set'laz. You'd have to hear someone say it as in talking directly to you though. As we all know, the Geordie accent should be banned from being broadcast on television.

I still remember the day I arrived in Durham to be greeted by the question (I later realised) Sucaplaya?

Took about 5 repeats before I realised I was being asked if I was a soccer player....

[Brandy Blue]

My regional English accent is derived from Viking settlers, so it's probably a bit older than the US of A.

You could be right, for all I know, but I find your logic puzzling.

All kinds of English derive from the 5th century Saxion invasion of England. Therefore American English has the same ancient roots as yours. Just because your region added some Norse words and pronunciation along the way doesn't necessarily mean that its current form is older than American English. Both your form and mine must have met a lot of outside influences since Viking times!

On another subject, I think I'd be correct in saying that the BBC played a big role (quite deliberately) in standardizing English, and that British English, as spoken today, has a lot to do with the introduction of radios into peoples' homes. Ironically, after setting a common standard, the BBC now hires some announcers with regional accents. I assume that they are now trying to be more diverse.

[Fisherking]

Ibrahim, I agree with your 1-5 assessment in the largest part and the reasons given.


In other regards;
As to Norse influence on English, it is not to be doubted. Many of our words are still the same in Norwegian in particular. This would point more to Ireland than England as a source of Norse words though.
This does seem a bit odd, but I know little of modern Danish and its development. They must have been more alike in that period.

Whether German changed its words or they were developed in some other way is beyond my scope.

Saxon “English” if that can be a term of usage, was the same as the Western Saxon German spoken until as late as the mid 700s. Friesian however is the closest language to English today, and they were a much smaller part of the invasion, though they may have provided most of the transport and maintained a longer contact.

I believe that a Dublin dialect is universally agreed to be the oldest in spoken English.

[Sisco Americanus]

Whether German changed its words or they were developed in some other way is beyond my scope.

I'm no linguist, but from my study of German many years ago I recall that the modern standardized German is Hochdeutsch, or "high German," so called because it originated in the German highlands in the south. I assume Low German, the dialects from the north, would be a decended dialect of the Saxons et al. who migrated to Britain, and indeed to this day that dialect is closer to English than Hochdeutsch is. My German teacher in high school once told us a personal anecdote from when she was studying abroad in northern Germany (I forget where, exactly), and one morning as she was just waking up she heard some maintanance men speaking to each other in the thick local dialect; she couldn't really understand what they were saying, and in the haze of not quite being awake yet the first thing she thought was, "Oh my gosh, I've forgotten English!!"

I have a question regarding the Irish dialect being the oldest dialect of English still spoken: Would the Irish dialect of the 18th century have been essentially the same as that spoken in England and America at the time? I had always assumed the Irish, Scottish, and Welsh dialects were so different because they were more heavily influenced by the old gaellic tongues of their ancestors. Is this incorrect, or is it just that the English in England in the 18th century was just as much influenced by this as the Irish, etc.?

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I'm no linguist, but from my study of German many years ago I recall that the modern standardized German is Hochdeutsch, or "high German," so called because it originated in the German highlands in the south. I assume Low German, the dialects from the north, would be a decended dialect of the Saxons et al. who migrated to Britain, and indeed to this day that dialect is closer to English than Hochdeutsch is. My German teacher in high school once told us a personal anecdote from when she was studying abroad in northern Germany (I forget where, exactly), and one morning as she was just waking up she heard some maintanance men speaking to each other in the thick local dialect; she couldn't really understand what they were saying, and in the haze of not quite being awake yet the first thing she thought was, "Oh my gosh, I've forgotten English!!"

This is a bit inaccurate. Regional dialects are still common among certain groups throughout Germany. High German isn't very similar to the regional dialects that dominate in the South (Bavarian, Austrian, Swabian) or the North (Plat German and so on). The coastal dialects tend to borrow more words from English and maybe even pronunciation because of the influence of commerce. Bavarian and Austrian is practically incomprehensible for most Germans, as is the dialect of Cologne.

[Sisco Americanus]

This is a bit inaccurate. Regional dialects are still common among certain groups throughout Germany. High German isn't very similar to the regional dialects that dominate in the South (Bavarian, Austrian, Swabian) or the North (Plat German and so on). The coastal dialects tend to borrow more words from English and maybe even pronunciation because of the influence of commerce. Bavarian and Austrian is practically incomprehensible for most Germans, as is the dialect of Cologne.

I guess I've been misinformed, then. Or perhaps I'm not recalling correctly-- It was many, many years ago.

EDIT: Perhaps this is the source of the confusion. From Wikipedia (yeah, yeah, I know):

Hochdeutsch (lit. "high German") is a phrase in German.

Linguistically and historically, it refers to the High German languages, which developed in the Southern uplands and the Alps.
Hochdeutsch is always used to refer to Standard German in daily (German) language, a confusing term since it collides with the linguistic meaning.
In the common meaning, "hoch" refers to "high" in a cultural or educational sense (sometimes pejoratively), while the linguistic term simply refers to the geography of Germany.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I guess I've been misinformed, then. Or perhaps I'm not recalling correctly-- It was many, many years ago.

EDIT: Perhaps this is the source of the confusion. From Wikipedia (yeah, yeah, I know):

Hochdeutsch (lit. "high German") is a phrase in German.

Linguistically and historically, it refers to the High German languages, which developed in the Southern uplands and the Alps.
Hochdeutsch is always used to refer to Standard German in daily (German) language, a confusing term since it collides with the linguistic meaning.
In the common meaning, "hoch" refers to "high" in a cultural or educational sense (sometimes pejoratively), while the linguistic term simply refers to the geography of Germany.

Yeah I'm not really sure where standard German came from either. Maybe it takes elements from High German? I have no idea.

[Fisherking]

I have a question regarding the Irish dialect being the oldest dialect of English still spoken: Would the Irish dialect of the 18th century have been essentially the same as that spoken in England and America at the time? I had always assumed the Irish, Scottish, and Welsh dialects were so different because they were more heavily influenced by the old gaellic tongues of their ancestors. Is this incorrect, or is it just that the English in England in the 18th century was just as much influenced by this as the Irish, etc.?

Not the over all Irish but one or more of the Dublin dialects.

Linguists say they go back to the 13th century.

Irish (Gaelic) was not allowed to be spoken in Dublin and it was settled by English and had a mostly Norse population to begin with.


toPhilipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
It is splitting hairs to some extent but we are talking more of accents more than dialects. Remember what was said earlier about the R sounds and how they play in words.

The West Country is certainly older in its purest form and contributes to the American accents.

English is a curious language. Any vowel sound my be mutated in almost any word to sound like almost any other by one dialect or another. For some of us it makes spelling a nightmare. For others, they simply cannot comprehend how a word may be misspelled. English and American spelling differ on some words which are still pronounced the same by both speakers. Jail and Gaol spring to mind.

I know that when I first was in Central Arkansas that it was a local joke, however true, that it was impossible to distinguish the spelling of fair, for, far, and four by the way they were pronounced, which was all the same…“far“.

The English language also only retains around 300 of the original Anglo-Saxon words. We have snatched all the others from elsewhere.