Fighting Saka as Baktria

[Raygereio]

Long time lurker here; please bear with me as I tell a little story.

After having some fun with the Romans in 1.1, I decided to go with the Baktrians for 1.2. Things went well as I expanded eastward and annexed the indian cities into my growing empire.
Arche Seleukeia declared war rather quickly in the meantime and attacked Baktria itself, but their halfhearted invasions were easily expelled.

Having no where else to go east, my commander turned his gaze to the north. To the city of Alexandreia-Eschata to be exact; the large Seleukid army stationed there yielded with little fight.
Imagine the poor commander's surprise however as just over 3 months after conquering the city, it was besieged by 2 large armies of very intimidating looking men on horseback.
6 months later the over 2000 strong army of horseriders attacked the 1000 Baktrian besieged; the Baktrian commander not only won, but managed to take out the Saka's leader and his Son.

Feeling even more confident now, it was decided the commander took his army north again; it ended in disaster. Just shy over 250 men of the original 1100 returned after encountering an Saka force numbering no more them 500 souls. (Oh, survivers claimed numbers of over 2000 and that demons fought along side the Saka, but let's not get sidetracked by fancy tales of arrows blotting out the sun).

How does a Baktrian commander fight the Saka on open ground?
I can beat them in the cities just fine. But on open ground their horse archers just make mincemeat out of my infantry. Even if I beat them, the losses are staggering.
I reckon the answer is probably using cavalry to counter theirs, but I just don't have the financing to fund a large cavalry wing to take on the Saka and keep large enough garrisons around to fend of Seleukids.

Any tips on beating them in a more economical manner?

[Wausser]

Just don't fight them in open fields, or use HA yourself...

[Havok.]

I would say stick in the mountains, open plains is the terrain where YOU get kicked by them, perfect for HA and large cavalry charges (The things which Saka rely on a battle mostly) so mountains places where the mobility of their cavalry is largely affected is the ideal place for killing them, forests are good as well, but please, never, never, i mean, NEVER fight them in a large, open, sparky plain field if you have any love by your man.


Waiting their armies in cities is another alternative, though i consider this a bit more risky of losing men easily(If they besige your cities for long periods, thus, you lose troops in this)


Or, if all else is useless, i'd say rambo rush into their cities, capitals, towns where they draw large amounts of money, making the further recruitment of HA's difficult, to impossible. Then, taking the active remaining armies inside walls or ambushes through the map.

[A Very Super Market]

At least you didn't let them take Alexandreia-Eschate. AHSes are a pain. If you really have to move into their territory, try and stay on the mountains. There, your archers will outrange them, and they will quickly die for their lack of armour.
Also, once the Baktrian reforms come along, your bodyguards can shrug of arrows like no other, so use them to provide a target while your other troops move in.

[HunGeneral]

Fisrt of all welcome to the forums

Well I have more experience from the "other side of the front" but I hope I can give you some useful tips:

How does a Baktrian commander fight the Saka on open ground??

- Wel in the ideal case the bactrians don't since as a result there probeably won't be enough survivers to report to the Basileus. Like you said:

on open ground their horse archers just make mincemeat out of my infantry. Even if I beat them, the losses are staggering

.

- However if you do fight them in the field: always bring lots of archers (archer-spearmen are ideal against unarmored horse-archers since they cause more casualities on distance and can fight in melle with there spears, Persian heavy archers are also good since there armor makes them more resistent against counter-fire), use spearmen (I heard thuherophoi are more useable then phalangites) as defence and mostly don't use cavalry - those nomads outclas your (melee) horsemen almost every time. And the horse-archers are to fast to catch.
- Also if you fight in the field make sure to be on the defensive and on a hill with lost of archers and spearmen and pray to the almighty god (or gods) that you have enough arrows to shoot and enough soldiers.
- Never attack if they ARE ON A HILL - you should expect heavy losses till you get your archers in range.
- You should be better of fighting agains them in the streets but I see you know that already.

Any tips on beating them in a more economical manner?

Hmmm.. This should be answered by someone who has more experience fighting as Bactria.

Like said I have my conclusions from fighting on the oder side

[SwebozGaztiz]

Well i have played as baktria many times and i think in most of those campaigns the sakas never invaded me or where too persistent, but that was back on 1.1, anyways i think the previous posts have given you a lot of insight and really good information, but once again its really important to remember that no matter what, never engage them in open terrain, even if you outnumber their armies you will get ur ass kicked or if you win you will loose way too much soldiers. Try to get some HAs yourself, if your able to capture Aasak well you will be able to get Parthian horse archers which are quite good, i mention this town because its one of the Arche Seleukeia cities and well since youre already at war with them, it wont be too much of a hassle to capture it.
Also if you want to have a more strategical victory remember, every time you capture one of their cities destroy their barracks just in case you loose the town, that means they will loose precious time rebuilding and expending money getting their barracks again.
Fighting in the streets of your town its always the best way to take this horse armies, also try to get those subeshi archers they have really good range, although theyre not that good as the persian spearman in melee but they are quite good still. Anyways i know this is not a lot of information but i hope it can be useful for you my friend, good luck against those HA hordes!!!

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Use lots of phalanxes supported by archers. Keep your own cavalry on reserve.

[Raygereio]

Usefull tips there, thanks.

[Kromulan]

Don't forget. . . their generals, in addition to their bows, are extremely heavily armored, so you may want to bring some infantry with AP weapons to mob them with.
I like the Indian longbowmen for this purpose. Their range is disappointing compared to the HA's, but those Saka heavies have a tendency to charge missile troops. The longbowmen have the same melee weapon as the guild infantry, so they tend to make those melees quite painful for the heavy horse. Just don't leave them alone in the melee. They're weak on defense.

[Atraphoenix]

As my favorite faction is Pahlava, I can advice you one more thing the rest stated about, as the worst possibility namely to face a HA army in the open field, I can advice you to deploy elite phalanxes,
HAs can handle pandotopoi, and phalangites very easily, but Pezotairoi and the its upper class phalanxes can absorb arrows very well, you can lose %20 maximum before they run out of arrows, the rest is easy.

You can ask me how to handle elite phalanx, simple they have no armour bonus from flanks and rear, so do not let HAs to outflank you, if they are likely, use this tactic.
__ __
/ ..... \
/ __ _ \
******

.... = missile infantry
/ \ _ _ = phalanxes
****= any cavalry if you have HAs yourself you can put them in from of your missile or behind dpend on your choice.
luckily AI cannot handle this formation so I decimate them

I hope it may help you during the worst scenario and of course you can adjust any triangular tactic that suits you

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

As long as you can keep your phalangites facing the enemy from the front, any phalanx will absorb any ranged attack.

[mlp071]

Any tips on beating them in a more economical manner?

Combination of Persian Archer-Spearmen and Prodromoi(4-6 units) along with your general or 2 got job done for me very easily. Prodromoi are able to catch up with any armored Saka or Pahlava HA and rest can be killed by your archers.

I steamrolled both HA factions with only one army of that composition in last 2 Baktria campaigns, with no significant loses on my side. That was around 190 BC(Saka part), and i wasn't even paying attention on terrain.

Just focus your cavalry on mass charging one target at time, after you lure their best units(starting with their FM) to you.6 units charging one will break and decimate any unit in game.

You can mix in some Persian Archers and/or Eastern Slingers, or mercenary HA's in for variety if you want to.All those units , but Prodromoi have very low upkeep and huge AoR, so they are easily replaceable.

[A Very Super Market]

What freaking difficulty are you playing on? I tried that kind of tactic and got massacred...

[mlp071]

What freaking difficulty are you playing on? I tried that kind of tactic and got massacred...

VH campaign and M battles.There is progression pics somewhere in 1.1 campaign post on one of those campaigns.I played with script that gives more money to AI then regular one, afaik.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

AI loves to go after human FM's , so use them to get AI into range of my cavalry.

In this https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=101742&page=3