Adding religion to EB

[Ferromancer]

I was thinking, now that the EB for BI installer has stabilized a bit, it would be nice for my installer to take advantage and add religions to EB.

As a list of religions of the time period I was thinking:

Celtic -- Casse, Lusotanni, Aedui, Arverni
Germanic -- Sweboz
Hellenistic -- Romani, Greek Factions, Getai? Pontos?
Semitic -- Carthage, Saba
Animist -- Saka Rauka, Saraumatae
Zoroastrian -- Seleucid? Baktria? Hai? Pahlava?
Egyptian -- Ptolomeic

I put the question marks next to ones I wasn't sure about. Somebody more familiar with the temples/gods for each faction could help me. Some factions may even have multiple religions based on which temple is installed in a region, correct (Seleucids for instance)?

To simplify things, I was wondering I could use the existing temple system. And do something like:

...temple_of_fun...
            ...
            capability
            {
                ...
                religious_belief celtic 1 { /* celtic factions */ }
                religious_belief hellenistic 1 { /* greco-roman factions */ }
            }
            ...

Though I have to admit I'm totally confused by the faction name enumerations--they don't map exactly to the modern EB factions.

Then all I would have to do, at the minimum is to add pips and this would work, right? If I don't define regions with a religion, they would just pick it up from the existing temple complex?

I think I can leave out traits and ancillaries since those are already very detailed.

[A Very Super Market]

Isn't there a religion limit of three? Would make this rather difficult, or at least really general

[Ferromancer]

I'm pretty sure the limit is 9. (10 actually, but the last pip doesn't show up)

[Βελισάριος]

I support this implement!
I was thinking about it the other day, because BI allows you to add religions and therefore conflict and therefore making it even more difficult to conquer new provinces... FUN!

Sarcasm aside, I do think it is something that would help with the realism that EB prides itself in.
As for the religions themselves, you have to keep in mind... there were a plethora of them to be had in 272 BC. I'm fairly certain that the Germanic tribes each had their variations on the "main" religion... which is why in later times you had Wotan and Odin depicting the same god but in technically different religions. I'm guessing the Celtic peoples (in their vast expansion) had the same issue.

I can help you with the Getai religion. Not that it should be extremely complicated... EB already does a good job with it (except for including Ares, Dyonisos and was it Demeter? in there. I know there are no recorded names for these gods... but still.)

[Marcus Ulpius]

Could be an interesting idea, but I'm not sure religion played such an important role in creating unrest during EB timeframe. I think since they are not monotheistic religions they were more tolerant to each other with less zeal and fanatism than we encounter in later periods where monotheistic religions dominate the world.

Second point is that Seleucids can't be considered Zoroastrian as the were Hellenistic kingdom (with non-Hellenistic population). I'm not sure Zoroastrism even existed at that period. I think it appeared much later. Ptolies are Hellenistic kingdom too with Egyptian population. This makes the religion issue even more complicated as religions were interweaving a lot those times.

[Marcus Gallicus]

Can't you make it resemble culture instead of religion?

[SwissBarbar]

I completely agree. For example, when the romans met a new culture, they just allocated the foreign gods to their own, due to what their function was. Not only would it be extremely difficult to implemet that in the game, its just not necessary, for as Marcus Ulpius said, religion is not that important at those times, as it was later in history.

As for Zotoastrism, yes it already existed in the EB-Timeframe. Actually even for a few centuries.

[oudysseos]

Well yesterday I posted this on the Asia ton Barbaron thread: the important bit is the link at the bottom.

Religion is another kettle of fish. There's a theoretical limit of 10, a soft limit of 9 (otherwise the graphics display get effed up) and I have always understood that only the first three religions actually impact public order. This is not so bad actually: first off unless you drop a player faction you can't have loyalty or FMs rebelling. Secondly although people back then were very religious in the sense of personal piety, sectarian political strife was less prevalent than it is today.

'Religion' of course could be used for other concepts: political systems, social demographics, language groups and so on. Anyway here are a couple of ideas.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

To Hellenikon
This is a big umbrella concept that stands for Greek identity or Greekishness.
Makedonia, Ptolemaioi, Arche Seleukia, Baktria, KH, maybe Epeiros
Propogated by Greek cultural structures (theatres, festivals, schools)
Herodotus 8.144

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

τὸ Ἑλληνικὸν ἐὸν ὅμαιμόν τε καὶ ὁμόγλωσσον καὶ θεῶν ἱδρύματά τε κοινὰ καὶ θυσίαι ἤθεά τε ὁμότροπα, τῶν προδότας γενέσθαι Ἀθηναίους οὐκ ἂν εὖ ἔχοι

Imperium
This represents a Roman 'manifest destiny' of conquest, something that would have been well established by the time they emerge onto this map.
Roma
Propogated by Roman government structures, roads, aqueducts

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In ancient Rome, imperium could be used as a term indicating a characteristic of people, the wealth held in items, or the measure of formal power they had. This qualification could be used in a rather loose context (for example, poets used it, not necessarily writing about state officials). However, in Roman society it was also a more formal concept of legal authority. A man with imperium had in principle absolute authority to apply the law within the scope of his magistracy or promagistracy, but could be vetoed or overruled by a magistrate or promagistrate having imperium maius (a higher degree of imperium) or, as most republican magistratures were multiple (though not quite collegial since each could act on his own), by the equal power of his colleague (e.g., the other consul). Some modern scholars, such as A.H.M. Jones have defined it as "the power vested by the state in a person to do what he considers to be in the best interests of the state".

Avesta and Vedas
This represents the proto-feudal nature of these societies and their rulers' propagation of 'The Law' that keeps everyone in his place.
Pahlava, Pontus, Hayasdan
Propogated by settled government structures, Satrapies, Persian uniques, Persian structures (Gardens, Badghirs, Security Buidings, Royal Outposts), maybe Temples

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Asha (aša) or arta is the Avestan language term for a concept of cardinal importance to Zoroastrian theology and doctrine. It is commonly summarized in accord with its contextual implications of 'truth' and 'right(eousness)', 'order' and 'right working'. Sanskrit ṛtá as used in Vedic Sanskrit literally means the "order or course of things", cognate to Avestan aša and related to the English right. In the Vedas, rta lays the philosophical foundation for the Hindu conception of dharma. Both Avestan aša/arta and Vedic ŗtá- are commonly translated as "truth" as this best reflects both the original meaning of the term as well as the opposition to their respective antonyms. The opposite of Avestan aša/arta is druj-, "lie." Similarly, the opposites of Vedic ṛtá- are ánṛta- and druh, likewise "lie". The Vedic word dharma literally translates as that which upholds or supports, and is generally translated into English as law. Avestan Daena is the eternal Law, whose order was revealed to humanity through the Mathra-Spenta ("Holy Words"). Daena has been used to mean religion, faith, law, even as a translation for the Hindu and Buddhist term Dharma, often interpreted as "duty" or social order, right conduct, or virtue.

Ashvamedha (the Horse Sacrifice)
Information about the religious practices of these people is sketchy: Ashvamedha represents the Steppe culture of Iranian-speaking horse people.
Saka Rauka, Sauromatae
Propogated by Nomadic and Pastoral government types, Horse Herds, Temples and Cults, maybe hidden resources (horse/steppes)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Horse cults and horse sacrifice in Antiquity is almost exclusively associated with Indo-European culture. Many Indo-European branches show evidence for horse sacrifice, and comparative mythology suggests that they derive from a Proto-Indo-European ritual.
The Ashvamedha could only be conducted by a king (rājā). Its object was the acquisition of power and glory, the sovereignty over neighbouring provinces, and general prosperity of the kingdom. The horse to be sacrificed must be a stallion, more than 24, but less than 100 years old. The horse is sprinkled with water, and the Adhvaryu and the sacrificer whisper mantras into its ear. Anyone who should stop the horse is ritually cursed, and a dog is killed symbolic of the punishment for the sinners. The horse is then set loose towards the North-East, to roam around wherever it chooses, for the period of one year (or half a year, according to some commentators). The horse is associated with the Sun, and its yearly course. If the horse wanders into neighbouring provinces hostile to the sacrificer, they must be subjugated. The wandering horse is attended by a hundred young men, sons of princes or high court officials, charged with guarding the horse from all dangers and inconvenience. During the absence of the horse, an uninterrupted series of ceremonies is performed in the sacrificer's home.

Oracles of the Ancestors
Little is also known about the pre-Islamic religions of the Arabian peninsula. Local polytheism seemed prevalent as well as Judaism.
Saba
Propogated by Temples, the Kaaba

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Prior Islam on the Arabian Peninsula in 622 the Kaaba of Mecca was covered in symbols representing the myriad demons, djinn, demigods and other assorted creatures which represented the profoundly polytheistic environment of pre-Islamic Ancient Arabia. We can infer from this plurality an exceptionally broad context in which mythology could flourish. Stories of genies, ghouls, magic lamps, flying carpets, and wishes contained in tales from the Arabian Nights and other works have been passed down through the generations.

Rún (‘Celtishness’: similarities in language, religion and culture)
Alternative name: Touta, ‘The People’
Aedui, Averni, Casse, Lusotannan
Propogated by Celtic temples and barracks, Government Types, Celtic Schools, Celtic Uniques

Anyways,here's an interesting thread about modding religions in BI.

[Atraphoenix]

Is it possible to add religions under Alex,too?
+ Jews lived happily under Parthians, so is it also possible to add multiple temples of Judaism and Zoroasterianism in the same settlement without causing religious conflict?

[oudysseos]

Well there are no 'multiple temples' possible in EB as far as I know: there was a polytheism mod for RTR 6.0 waaaaaay back when but I have no idea how it worked, and I bet it would be impossible for EB anyway. But, there's no reason AFAIK why conversion to religion x can't be made part of another build tree, one that doesn't conflict with temples.

I think a religion mod for BI-EB would be great but let's not kid ourselves: it'll be a lot of work.

[Atraphoenix]

hardcode 10 religion number(working ones 9) is same with kingdoms exe for EB2?
But I do not think, either; religions will be represented under EB2

[oudysseos]

To add religions into EB:

1. edit/create descr_beliefs.txt

2. edit/create expanded_bi.txt

3. edit descr_regions.txt

4. edit export_descr_buildings.txt and export_descr_buildings_enums.txt

5. edit export_buildings.txt

6. possibly edit export_descr_ancillaries.txt and export_ancillaries.txt

7. edit export_descr_character_traits.txt, export_descr_VnVs_enums.txt and export_VnVs.txt

8. edit descr_strat.txt

Steps one and two wouldn't be terrible: just copy-and-paste from bi/data and rename things as you wish. A big stumbling block would be the pips for religion that appear in the settlement descriptions: unless you'd be willing to use the existing bi pips you'd have to create them yourselves; perhaps an alternative would be in EB/data/menu/symbols/FE_buttons_24: these are small EB faction symbols but they may be too big to act as religion pips. You'd really need someone who knows what he's doing with the graphical interface here.

Step three will be very time consuming as you will have to go through 199 regions and decide what percentages of your religions to assign to them.

Steps four and five will be hard: EB export_descr_buildings.txt is damn long and complicated but you'll have to add in religious effects to all the buildings that you want to have an impact on the religions. Also the hidden resources. Yikes.

Step six is if your want religious ancillaries: personally I wouldn't screw around with this. Remember there are already priest ancillaries in EB but they don't have any conversion effects or anything like that.

Step seven will be a real heart-breaker as I think EB export_descr_character_traits.txt is even more complex than export_descr_buildings.txt but you will have to add in religion traits on top of the whole EB trait system. I would be scared of this myself.

Step eight again very time consuming as you'd have to go through and add in religions to all the characters in game.

If anyone is serious about this I think it's a good idea but I would suggest starting small: 2 or 3 religions at first, see how hard it is to integrate into EB, then build on that if it works. Anyone up for it?

[Ferromancer]

I'm warming up to the idea of using conflicting culture instead of conflicting religion.

There is something I need to confirm though. You can have a soft limit of 9 religions, but only three religions have any effect on order? Is that for real?

[Atraphoenix]

OMG, to create a religion on EB is harder than to create a new religion in the world
"Come my disciples, thou will be revealed to the true path of light!"

[Ferromancer]

Another question:

The question is: if each building has a +1 cultural spread, how many turns would it take for a settlement to be converted? I may have to limit the types of buildings that spread culture if it spreads too quickly. Any wonder would also have to generate culture, so that if you don't demolish a wonder it will generate resistance.

Also, before I even think about proceeding I need to know whether it's true or not that the first three religions are the only ones that have an effect on order (otherwise, why bother?).

[IrishHitman]

Can't you make it resemble culture instead of religion?

I agree with this.
Those who have played the Britannia campaign on Medieval Kingdoms will know the possibilities.
Religion is just a pointless rebellion-creating factor, whereas culture could be used to recruit higher units from other factions' home areas.

[Βελισάριος]

Another question:

The question is: if each building has a +1 cultural spread, how many turns would it take for a settlement to be converted? I may have to limit the types of buildings that spread culture if it spreads too quickly. Any wonder would also have to generate culture, so that if you don't demolish a wonder it will generate resistance.

Also, before I even think about proceeding I need to know whether it's true or not that the first three religions are the only ones that have an effect on order (otherwise, why bother?).

The Wonders don't necessarily have to "spread" culture. Besides, that would shift the balance too much in favour of Hellenistic culture. Not that I would mind but it would not be fair to other players.

Figures shouldn't be hard to calculate, go by multiplying 5% (e.g.: Hellenistic ruler in the region +5% Hellenistic conversion, shrine of Artemis +5%, Large temple +15% and so on).
Also, the type of goverment should affect the cultuer factor. For example: Makedonian Satrapy: Total conversion (+10-15% Hellenistic conversion), Makedonian Allied State minimum conversion (5% or none at all.)

And a settlement would be "converted" when the balance shifts towards the new culture, So if you have 45% Hellenistic and 55% Roman with a +10% Hellenistic conversion, the settlement would "turn Greek" in the next season.

That's my two Mnai.

[Marcus Ulpius]

I think the problem here is that the conversion will be too quick to have any resemblance to a real historic process. I always found it funny that in Medieval you could convert a settlement from Catholicism let's say to Islam in 10 years, while in reality 100 years would be much closer to truth. Romanization of Gauls and Iberians took more than 100 years. It is probably possible to make the bonuses to work at the same rate in EB, but given that EB time frame is limited, would it make so much difference?

Another question is what would it add? If it will give the opportunity to recruit higher level troops, then the original AoRs are obsolete as well as some reforms. Romani, for example, can recruit legions in provinces only after Marian reforms. Will "converting" settlement to Roman make it possible to recruit Polibian legions in Type II provinces?

[lenin96]

I would lower the cultural conversion rate a lot, even the largest temple should only have a small increase, public order and law bonuses should be what they mostly do.

[Gabeed]

Could be an interesting idea, but I'm not sure religion played such an important role in creating unrest during EB timeframe. I think since they are not monotheistic religions they were more tolerant to each other with less zeal and fanatism than we encounter in later periods where monotheistic religions dominate the world.

Indeed. Since polytheistic religions of the time were more open to the idea of adding foreign deities to their pantheons (Cybele for the Romans, for example), or else equating foreign gods to their own, there was not nearly as much religious conflict as later. The Romans seemed to think that as long as the worship of a god didn't disrupt public order and wasn't morally abhorrent to them (the Bacchanalia, Carthage's infamous baby sacrifices to Saturn), it was fair game.

With that said, I would agree with the others who have suggested "religion" as "culture" for EB-BI, but isn't that already somewhat represented in public order?

[A Very Super Market]

Yeah, that culture anti-bonus is a killer, especially when dealing with far away huge cities.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I believe the limit on religion in BI is both 3 and 9.
You can add 9, but only the first 3 will cause religious unrest.

[Ferromancer]

So the unrest limit really is three? It doesn't seem worth the bother :(

You'd be limited to an oversimplification of Greek, Non-Greek, and Barbarian cultures.

[ziegenpeter]

I wouldn't say so - I mean the first three are obviously the most important cultures in a city. The smaller ones possibly don't cause unrest

[antisocialmunky]

Religious wars are really more of a product of politics mixing with Abrahamic religions. Religions coexisted for the most part.

[LordCurlyton]

Well the limit of 3 causing unrest doesn't have to be ALL bad. Just pick the 3 most ornery to control cultures (or the 3 you want to be the hardest to control) and let them be the unrest causers. Also, does BI allow for units that require a specific cultural/religious percentage, like in M2TW Kingdoms? If so, then you can customize the spread of various culture's fighting styles, etc. A prelim list I always wanted to do was:
Roman, Hellenistic, Celtic, German, Steppe, Iranian, Iberian, Getic, Punic

or

Roman, Hellenistic, Celto-Germanic, Steppe, Iranian, Punic, Iberian, Getic, Indian

The issue with the quick conversion rates is definitely the biggest hurdle, though in both BI and M2TW it was character traits like Piety that were the killers. Especially in BI, where you could convert Italy to Paganism in one turn if you were hording as Vandals/Mongols and brought the vast majority of your family members over. Also, in BI I believe each level of conversion = 5% conversion, so it will be relatively fast regardless. At least they fixed that in M2TW (each level there is now 1%) but they still have the problem of very fast conversion via agents/characters. Also, there is the neighboring province effect, which in BI is 5% per province for whatever religion/culture it possesses as its dominant/official one. At least in the Britannia campaign it still exists but seems to only be at most 1% per province (possibly just 1% per turn for having a different culture province next door but I am pretty sure it is 1% per province).
So in BI the minimum conversion you could get is 5% per turn (excepting 0% of course), which would be far to quick for use in EB (20% per year? A little quick). If we could get the conversion rate to be 0.5% per level you could at least drag things out for a generation or two. And when you think about it, seeing as EB runs at roughly 4 times historical rates to retain playability (sorry, I'm not willing to wait 400 turns to do something), that roughly equates to the 100 year solution. Personally, I'd look at it as acculturating the nobility as once they see themselves as your culture it really doesn't matter beyond public order what the peasants believe. If the nobility trains in your style of fighting, lives in your style, and raises troops like you do, is it really any different than if you'd had a bottom-up conversion?

[Ferromancer]

I agree 5% a turn is way too fast of a conversion rate. Are fractional values allowed? like
religious_belief celtic 0.1?

[LordCurlyton]

Unless I'm mistaken, no. You have to use integer values for the levels of conversion, and in BI level 1 = 5%, M2TW level 1 = 1% (the Muslims just get multiple levels quickly for their mosques).