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Thread: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

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    Vindicative son of a gun Member Jolt's Avatar
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    Default Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    Interesting. As a former student of archaeology, my favourite period has always been the Portuguese discoveries. Speaking with my colleagues, one of them talked about a "Sancho Brandão", which had supposedly discovered Brazil in the reign of D. Dinis. Curiously, I've never heard of such a thing, as most people don't. I did a quick search on the net, and I stumbled across this site (In Portuguese, translated to English through google):

    In a book entitled "Brazil 500 years with new marranos and Christians" are references to some documents that mention the word "world" already used long before its discovery "official" by Pedro Alvares Cabral. This work is the work of the historian of Brazilian Raquel Souza. Here is an excerpt of it include:

    "On February 12, 1343 (through concrete evidence of the expedition of the Captain of the Portuguese Royal Navy, Sancho Brandão) El-Rei D. Diniz, related to the new Pope Clement VI of magnificent land, inhabited by naked men, opulent in trees of red ink, "the islands of the West - as the Vatican secret documents, published by the Jesuit scholar Manoel Fialho.

    The author adds that the Pope also sent a map of the region, aiming it entered the word "Insula in Brazil or brandane", which according to Cabral, was how Brazil has become known in antiquity. Indeed, more than twenty maps show, in different places, the island Hy Brazil, also called the San Brandão. This mythical island said to have had the ability to depart when the boat tried to approach her, which explains why the location changed from map to map. Hy Brazil was discovered and colonized by St. Brandão, Irish monk leaving for the sea in the year 565 AD, which then 105 years old. He was in search of a place removed to dedicate himself entirely to meditation, the worship of God.

    A poem of the fourteenth century, located in libraries in Europe, reads as follows:

    "He looked to the spanhwk his eyen
    hs not need him to dye for colors,
    with Brazil, with the grain of Portugal. "


    that in the translation into Portuguese, Maria da Glória de Vasconcellos, in what is transcribed below, which is undoubtedly very plain:

    "He looked with eyes of hawk
    Brazil now has no lack;
    for Portugal colors to tint
    without seeds. "

    In "Magagion" in the year 1376, R. of Taliensen, XII, 144), is "... of Portugal and Brazil." So that was the English expression to define the area of land of the great South American continental plate that the Portuguese colonized later: "... the country of Portugal."

    Raquel de Souza also refers browsers that left written references on the existence of Brazil: In 1375, a cartographer of Majorca has been sent to the Vatican by King Charles V of France, with the task of copying, correcting and expanding the original Portuguese map of according to changes made between 1343 and 1375. This map is in the National Library in Paris (see Ethnography, 11, 132.c.XVI) it can be seen the island of Brazil, their training and geographical location in South America in the British Museum in London, is is the map of the world Ranuulf Nyggeder, dated 1360, which is already entered this "Island of Brazil". His position is identical to the map of the King of France, Carlos V. Brazil also is mentioned in three other maps: the Andreia Bianco; to Becchario and of Nicolo Zeno.
    In the fourteenth century, the planisférios of cartographers Solleri, MD White and Pinelli already showed an island Brazil, always located to the west of the Azores archipelago. The renowned Brazilian historian Sergio Buarque de Holanda was of the opinion that the origin of this name is a Celtic legend who made reference to a "land of delight" wrapped in clouds. But the first map which appears unambiguous references to Brazil is the real map of Cantina, where you can see parrots, forests and the contour of the Brazilian coast - land of Pindorama and was called by the Indians - from the north to the southeast. A Portuguese cartographer, whose treason was discovered but later punished with death penalty and your last name and all of its descendants doomed to perpetual oblivion, it would have sold in 1502 to spy Italian Alberto canteen, which sent secretly to your Sir, the Duke of Ferrara, who documented that paid a very large sum. Officially, however, the only Spanish and Portuguese travel to Brazil until the year were those of Vicente Pinzón, the estuary of the Amazon, and of Pedro Álvares "Cabral" (that only by granting real well was not being named because he firstborn son in fact the law did not allow that to this time) to where today is the Bahia. How, then, that detailed design of the Brazilian coast from Cabo Frio to the Amazon? Therefore, already then a secure knowledge of the configuration of the coastal land west of the Atlantic. Than 4 000 kilometers of the Brazilian coast appears that the Florida map, Terra Nova (now Canada) and Greenland. Portuguese historians of today as Luciano Pereira da Silva and Jorge Couto are of the opinion that the Jewish sefaradic convert Duarte Pacheco Pereira, the same which had been negotiating the Treaty of Tordesillas and author of "Esmeraldo de Situ Orbis" (1505) has evidence that which is in Brazil's Maranhão coast and the mouth of the Amazon river had visited four years after the signing of the treaty reprobate, or in 1498. He (who was one of the captains of the expedition commanded by Pedro Alvares Cabral) had received the real task of exploring the island of Brazil identifying their astronomical coordinates. In "Esmeraldo in Situ Orbis," Pacheco says that "is found and navigate such a land with many large islands adjacent to it that extends to seventy degrees ladeza the equinoctial line, against the Arctic Pole." Between this version and the strict secrecy that kept the successors of the Knights Templar monks, or rather, the knights of the Order of Christ, financiers and sponsors of these expeditions that gave the disappearance compromising documents. To them it was, after all, must, under the command of the grand-master Prince Henry, the great Portuguese overseas management, in their epic dash. Therefore, the ships and the caravels exhibited in their sails round the Cross called "the Christ", symbol of primeval extinct Order ... which survived the "big burn" that the Inquisition on charges of heresy in Paris killed 500 monks knights in one day, bearing a part of the treasure of the Order, they would have been welcomed and protected by the great King Diniz provided that the new face of the institution, storing it in the Castle of Tomar, with the permission of the Pope of Rome to whom the Portuguese monarch was obedience.
    Another character that can not and must not be forgotten in the midst of this imbroglio has not yet clarified, is the famous Master João .. If Pero Vaz de Caminha was the chronicler of famous LETTER, Master João was the cartographer and the first to describe the navigation, by means of instruments, and say where it was Brazil. By dusk the 1st of May 1500, in the light of a lamp bruxuleante, he took the pen and wrote his report, brief and concise, which would be the only evidence of their participation in the adventure .... The birth certificate of Brazil, written by Pero Vaz de Caminha, would be lost until February 1773, the year it was rediscovered by the guard-mor da Torre do Tombo, José Seabra da Silva. But the letter of Master João, however, would only be found in 1843 by the Brazilian historian Francisco Adolfo de Varnhagem, also in the middle of the vast paperwork of the Torre do Tombo. Since that time there was a controversy surrounding the search as Master João .. Who was he? Why wrote this letter in Spanish and not in Portuguese? His name was João or Juan? It would be such a master João Menelau cited in other chronic sixteenth?
    The Portuguese historian Sousa Viterbo concluded that Master João was Joam Faras, bachelor of arts and medicine, physical and particular surgeon of King Manoel I, the Adventurous. This Joam Faras was a Jewish convert natural in Galicia, Spain, and believes that it has been set in Ireland around 1485, was the translator of the book De Situ Orbis (A Description of the World) written in classical Latin, in I century AD, the Roman geographer Mela Pompônio born in the Iberian Peninsula. It was because of this translation that Sousa Viterbo find Master John, also astronomer of D. Manoel that day I showed him what the stars ... But what, after all, the relationship between the Master João and the "discovery" of Brazil? Since he wrote the following letter to king Manoel: "Send Your Highness bring a world-map that has Pero Vaz Bisagudo V. and so can not see the site of this land, but that the world map does not certify whether this land is inhabited or not; map is old and there find your Highness also written to (the fortress) Mine. "
    The Portuguese historian Carlos Dias Malheiro, in 1921, discovered in an old documents Pero Vaz da Cunha "nicknamed d'Bisagudo, captain-major of the twenty sent Galleys" with great people and shine, so as officers of arms to construction of the fortress of Mina. "Bisagudo Although there really existed, unaware that this was the map which is the Master John said, knowing only that the mapping of the time usually showed dozens of legendary and mysterious island, one of them, held as a kind of "paradise lost", called Hy Brazil., which already appear in other maps such as those highlighted ago, one of which the Genoese Andrea Bianco, in 1448, and still others as the Florentine physician and astronomer Paolo Toscanelli in 1474 - that inspired Columbus, it seems also Portuguese Jew, Colon, not Genoese, to seek the Indies by the route of the west.
    The map of the Turkish admiral Piri Reis, idem, and the first world created in 1484 by German Martin Behaim, another Jew, as they were almost all the Brazil has not been forgotten ...
    In October 1969, in Vienna, Austria, where the deslocáramos on an official visit at the invitation of the federal government and the Municipality of Austrian capital had the company of then young professor Prof. Dr. Günther Hamann at the time director of the Center for Historical Studies, University of Vienna, which had just edit his monumental work, in German, never translated into the English language, dedicated to Iberian Discoveries and in particular to the Portuguese that renowned historian admired in particular coming to the point of view that these were made only parallel in the recent conquest of the moon by NASA astronauts and that his country would ever again be annexed by a foreign power, the nationality that he would take it .. . the Portuguese. Prof.. Hamann referred to us to the rediscovery of Brazil observed that symbolize Cabral made from only the official policy of what has been discovered in fact, several years before, by Lusitanian navigators ... Highlighted the policy of "secret" which is then practiced and espionage that Genoese and Spaniards were held in Lisbon.
    This is a gigantic finding, as it proves a safe trip to and back from Brasil, more than one century before Columbus. It also proves why our King João II was adamant in demanding the 300 nautical miles West of the Canaries, when the negotiations for the Treaty of Tordesillas took place.
    Last edited by Jolt; 02-06-2009 at 16:42.
    BLARGH!

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    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    This is very interesting Jolt.
    It does explain some strange things in history and some of the shadowy things we see in the edges of the excepted histories.

    One of the persistent legends to come out of medieval Europe involves the Templar Fleet.

    The whole Templar thing just doesn’t seem to go away and crops up in odd places and this is actually a bit of a tie-in.

    It is said that most of them ended up in Portugal. Many names are pointed to and the order they formed.

    Portugal did suddenly lead the world in navigation from about this time and her discoveries were many fold. Columbus went to Spain from Portugal and is thought to have gained information there.

    The English and Basque fishing fleets are thought to have used the Grand Banks off of Canada long before Columbus made his voyage.

    It all ends up causing more questions then we will ever have answers to, and each time the evidence is pigeon-holed.

    We have archaeological evidence of Phoenician and Roman ships off South America but that is always overlooked as well.

    This piece should cause a stir, but it doesn’t seem to have caught on, does it?


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    Spirit King Senior Member seireikhaan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    We have archaeological evidence of Phoenician and Roman ships off South America but that is always overlooked as well.


    Say what? When was this discovered?!
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    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    TBH im always surprised how long it took to 'discover' the america's... heard various theories about fishermen making thier way there... and vikings discovering USA/Canada never heard about roman ships off south america though...!
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    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    There have been several finds of Roman amphora and artifacts found in Brazil and I think Venezuela.

    There have also heard of Phoenician artifacts found though the details escape me.

    It is always attributed to the ship blown off course idea, but I am sure you will find something on some of them with a good search.

    Most of the articles I read were pre internet and I can’t recall the exact publications.

    Edit:

    Something I found in part;

    In 1976, diver Jose Roberto Texeira salvaged two intact amphorae from the bottom of Guanabara Bay, 15 kilometers from Rio de Janeiro. Six years later, archeologist Robert Marx found thousands of pottery fragments in the same locality, including 200 necks from amphorae.

    Amphorae are tall storage vessels that were used widely throughout ancient Europe. These particular amphorae are of Roman manufacture, circa the second century B.C. Much controversy erupted around the finds because Spain and Portugal both claim to have discovered Brazil around 1500 A.D. Roman artifacts were distinctly unwelcome. More objectively, the thought of an ancient Roman crossing of the Atlantic is not so farfetched. Roman wrecks have been discovered in the Azores; and the shortest way across the Atlantic is from Africa to Brazil -- only 18 days using modern sailing vessels.

    (Sheckley, Robert; "Romans in Rio," Omni, 5:43, June 1983.)
    Last edited by Fisherking; 02-12-2009 at 12:12.


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    Vindicative son of a gun Member Jolt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    I do not doubt even for one second that Romans and Carthaginians discovered the Azores, and might have even attempted to make a settlement there.
    But taking into consideration the priorities for the Roman Republic and Empire, I doubt the Romans reached Brazil and tried to colonize it. In my opinion that is the works of winds that blew the ships off course and they just wrecked there and the material culture presented there doesn't point out for established Roman settlements, much rather just shipwrecks, thus they went without returning to Europe to report their findings. The case I have presented here (Which I was unaware of) was of a voyage which, despite the fact that the fleet or ships under Sancho Brandão might just have been blown off, the fact is that they returned to Portugal with the news of land, and D. Dinis even informed the Pope, which is something superb. This "finding" (e.g. Voyage and return of Sancho Brandão) was discovered/analyzed in 2001.

    But yeah, it is widely known (At least in my archaeological circles) that Roman and Phoenician amphorae had been found in Brazil, Madeira and the Azores.
    BLARGH!

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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    This is very interesting Jolt.
    It does explain some strange things in history and some of the shadowy things we see in the edges of the excepted histories.

    One of the persistent legends to come out of medieval Europe involves the Templar Fleet.

    The whole Templar thing just doesn’t seem to go away and crops up in odd places and this is actually a bit of a tie-in.

    It is said that most of them ended up in Portugal. Many names are pointed to and the order they formed.
    It is quite known that the Templars (Or at least a part of them) survived in Portugal. After the bill Pastoralis Praeeminentiae, which ordered the arrest of the Templars, the Templar Order in Portugal (Which had relatively good power in Alentejo, an area which formed large eclesiastic fiefdoms), simply changed the name from Templar Order to Order of Christ. No Templar whatsoever was persecuted in Portugal. Curiously, (just found out this now), all this happened under D. Dinis's reign, meaning he protected the knights. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    Portugal did suddenly lead the world in navigation from about this time and her discoveries were many fold. Columbus went to Spain from Portugal and is thought to have gained information there.
    I may be biased, but its quite probable that Cristóvão Colombo was a Portuguese noble from a familly already related to the discoveries, born a village in Alentejo curiously named "Cuba". It explains why he consulted D. João II first, and his defection to Spain, just like another known Portuguese navigator Fernão de Magalhães (Magellan), which attempted the very same thing that Colombo did. Find a path to India for Spain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    The English and Basque fishing fleets are thought to have used the Grand Banks off of Canada long before Columbus made his voyage.
    I don't doubt it. It is also curious that João Corte-Real went exactly to discover Newfoundland, which supposedly is where it is thought where the Templars built their uber-colony.
    BLARGH!

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    master of the wierd people Member Ibrahim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    perhaps this is the reason for a curious provision in the treaty of tordisillas (1494)? the demarcation line for who colonizes what?
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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    @ Jolt


    I also agree that the Romans are unlikely to have tried to colonize the new world. There is some circumstantial evidence that at least some came and stayed, but that does not mean that it was a deliberate colonization.

    What is so often forgotten is that the idea that the world was flat was a dark age idea, fostered by the Church, and that it was known long before that the world was round.

    It was never really lost information but more hidden. Knowledge is power and was more carefully guarded in days gone by.

    I have no doubt that the Portuguese were capable and in fact did make successful voyages to and from the Western Hemisphere.

    Where and how they gained the knowledge, and why it served the Church and other Powers That Be to conceal that knowledge, even to this day, are other matters entirely.


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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post
    perhaps this is the reason for a curious provision in the treaty of tordisillas (1494)? the demarcation line for who colonizes what?
    Exactly what I wrote in the final of my initial post. It had long been suspected (As long as history has been studied) that our Portuguese monarch D. João had information about the existence of Brazil, thus why he was so adamant in demanding time and again for the demarcation line to be 300 miles west of the Canary Isles, thus putting Brazil into Portuguese territory. And the proof that Sancho Brandão did discover and report the finding of Brazil, coupled with D. João II's zeal for colonization (Bear in mind that D. João II is widely considered the best Portuguese monarch ever. Thus why his nickname is better than "the Great". He was "the Perfect Prince". :D ) has shed light over centuries of mystery regarding whether Portugal knew pre-emptively about the existence of Brazil.
    BLARGH!

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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    From my memory of my Archaeology course from last year the most common reason given for having shards of Roman pottery in South America is simply tides - things get caught up from ship-wrecks and over time they work their way across the Ocean.
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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    Spoilsport.
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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    From my memory of my Archaeology course from last year the most common reason given for having shards of Roman pottery in South America is simply tides - things get caught up from ship-wrecks and over time they work their way across the Ocean.
    Exactly. Ships that were blown off course and just happened to reach South America.
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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly View Post
    TBH im always surprised how long it took to 'discover' the america's... heard various theories about fishermen making thier way there... and vikings discovering USA/Canada never heard about roman ships off south america though...!
    Yes one of my old lectures showed us some of his digs in Newfoundland which proved that vikings made the short hop from green land to North america. I wonder how what else we dont know.
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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolt View Post
    Exactly. Ships that were blown off course and just happened to reach South America.
    Actually he meant they were wrecked somewhere far-ish from South America and then brought to South America by the tides. So he did not mean the ships were blown over to South America, if I understood him correctly. It's something like those stories you get of things getting blown off ships in the Pacific and then washing up on Australian beaches from time to time.
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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    …the most common reason given for having shards of Roman pottery in South America is simply tides - things get caught up from ship-wrecks and over time they work their way across the Ocean.


    That assertion is patently ridiculous!

    Ships are not messages in a bottle. Tides may move wrecks but the distances there are astronomical.

    There is evidence of visits not just wreckage. Some people must have survived the voyages, whither they were intended voyages or not is not material.

    Tides and wind would make the graveyard in the Caribbean and not on the Brazilian coast.

    Simple explanations are often true but simplistic explanations are very misleading.


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    Bopa Member Incongruous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    That assertion is patently ridiculous!

    Ships are not messages in a bottle. Tides may move wrecks but the distances there are astronomical.

    There is evidence of visits not just wreckage. Some people must have survived the voyages, whither they were intended voyages or not is not material.

    Tides and wind would make the graveyard in the Caribbean and not on the Brazilian coast.

    Simple explanations are often true but simplistic explanations are very misleading.
    It is almost impossible to believe that a shallow waters galley of the ancient Roman world could have survived the high seas of the Atlantic,that they were intended or not is entirely material to the discussion. The supplies needed would simply not have been present aboard such a ship, the crew would have starved to death and the ship simply broken up.

    Your own assumptions are far more ridiculous than the possibility of wreckage washing ashore.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    Quote Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar View Post
    It is almost impossible to believe that a shallow waters galley of the ancient Roman world could have survived the high seas of the Atlantic,that they were intended or not is entirely material to the discussion. The supplies needed would simply not have been present aboard such a ship, the crew would have starved to death and the ship simply broken up.

    Your own assumptions are far more ridiculous than the possibility of wreckage washing ashore.
    Really?

    There is physical evidence of various types and much more antidotal evidence in both North and South America of Roman ships and Romans them selves. But not just Romans, also Phoenicians, Egyptians, Celts, and so on. Some is much sketchier than others but it is still there.

    I was not saying that anyone colonized the New World, just that the trip could have and was made, however unintended it may have been. There were many ship types and no one said they were military galleys.

    What I meant was ridiculous was the idea that it all washed up from the sea floor to the coast. A sunken wreck from the time could possibly move a few hundred miles at best provided the conditions of current and the sea floor were perfect but moving it from one cottontail shelf to the other is more fantastic than the idea of accidental contact.


    http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...&ct=image&cd=1

    http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_histo...voya/index.swf


    There is even some evidence of stone age contact between the Americas and Europe as well as some old accounts of reverse contact.


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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    I'd find it quite unbelievable for wreckage to move over the seafloor and get passed the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. However if some only sunk beyond that ridge, washing up might be possible.

    I don't know if we'll ever know the real truth in this matter.

    One thing strikes me: if the Portugese already knew Brazil existed, why did they continu to send ships down Africa and not continue exploration of their newly found land. They didn't have the troubling Reconquista in which Spain was still struggling so they could've earned a decent headstart. Granted, they were a far smaller nation, but that didn't stop them from building tradeposts all over the African and Indian coasts.

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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    Really?

    There is physical evidence of various types and much more antidotal evidence in both North and South America of Roman ships and Romans them selves. But not just Romans, also Phoenicians, Egyptians, Celts, and so on. Some is much sketchier than others but it is still there.

    I was not saying that anyone colonized the New World, just that the trip could have and was made, however unintended it may have been. There were many ship types and no one said they were military galleys.

    What I meant was ridiculous was the idea that it all washed up from the sea floor to the coast. A sunken wreck from the time could possibly move a few hundred miles at best provided the conditions of current and the sea floor were perfect but moving it from one cottontail shelf to the other is more fantastic than the idea of accidental contact.


    http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...&ct=image&cd=1

    http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_histo...voya/index.swf


    There is even some evidence of stone age contact between the Americas and Europe as well as some old accounts of reverse contact.
    Nos ship of the ancient world was biult for deep sea sailing, be it Celtic, Carthaginian, Roman or Egyptian, such "evidence" and "history" is phoney and a is a product of modern man's ability to lie to himself in the hope of fantastical outcomes.

    Stone age? You mean Ice Age? I am fully aware that it is now likely that Ameri-Indians are descended from Ice-Age people from Europe. However once the ice sheets melted such contact would become impossible.

    I find all this to be much in the same vein as Holy Blood Holy Grail...

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    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    @Bopa the Magyar
    You are certainly entitled to your opinions and beliefs and I would not try to change them.


    I will however, review a few of the things you bring up or that I have discussed.

    The Classical World knew the earth was round. They computed it circumference. They understood spherical geometry. The predecessor to the sextant, the cross staff, was known to them. We have records of voyages to Briton and to India. We have no idea of what may have been lost in Alexandria.

    It is not inconceivable that someone undertook a voyage and if not it is still possible that it could have been made accidentally.

    Thor Heyerdahl successfully made a trans-Atlantic voyage in a reed boat in 1970. I doubt the ancients would have chosen such a craft for a long voyage but it does show that it was at least possible.

    I am not sure what to make of your statement about Holy Blood, Holy Grail. It should not lead you to a suspension of belief for anything in history which that book touches on. Much of it is based on history and traditions long held as true. When they start trying to link the priest to the legends and the assertion that the Priory of Sion still exists is when it becomes fantastical.

    The Templars did exist and it is said that the remains of Mary Magdalene from a tomb in southern France were entrusted to them. The Priory may have been a subgroup which cared for them. At a point in time the Priory broke away from the Templars before they were destroyed. The remains were eventually returned to the Church. Those are the established facts.

    The Templar naval ensign was a skull and crossed bones (Mary Magdalene?) which later became the black flag of the pirate. It is claimed they had advanced knowledge of navigation along with all of the other speculation about their treasures and knowledge. Members of the order escaped to Portugal and Scotland where they were protected. Most of the fleet as far as is known went to Portugal. Shortly there after Portugal became the world leader in navigation and long distance sailing.

    That leads us back to where Jolt began the thread.
    Last edited by Fisherking; 02-19-2009 at 09:20.


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    Bopa Member Incongruous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    @Bopa the Magyar
    You are certainly entitled to your opinions and beliefs and I would not try to change them.


    I will however, review a few of the things you bring up or that I have discussed.

    The Classical World knew the earth was round. They computed it circumference. They understood spherical geometry. The predecessor to the sextant, the cross staff, was known to them. We have records of voyages to Briton and to India. We have no idea of what may have been lost in Alexandria.

    It is not inconceivable that someone undertook a voyage and if not it is still possible that it could have been made accidentally.

    Thor Heyerdahl successfully made a trans-Atlantic voyage in a reed boat in 1970. I doubt the ancients would have chosen such a craft for a long voyage but it does show that it was at least possible.

    I am not sure what to make of your statement about Holy Blood, Holy Grail. It should not lead you to a suspension of belief for anything in history which that book touches on. Much of it is based on history and traditions long held as true. When they start trying to link the priest to the legends and the assertion that the Priory of Sion still exists is when it becomes fantastical.

    The Templars did exist and it is said that the remains of Mary Magdalene from a tomb in southern France were entrusted to them. The Priory may have been a subgroup which cared for them. At a point in time the Priory broke away from the Templars before they were destroyed. The remains were eventually returned to the Church. Those are the established facts.

    The Templar naval ensign was a skull and crossed bones (Mary Magdalene?) which later became the black flag of the pirate. It is claimed they had advanced knowledge of navigation along with all of the other speculation about their treasures and knowledge. Members of the order escaped to Portugal and Scotland where they were protected. Most of the fleet as far as is known went to Portugal. Shortly there after Portugal became the world leader in navigation and long distance sailing.

    That leads us back to where Jolt began the thread.
    Thor Heyerdahl knew that America existed, I would also like to know if he used any knowledge of the Atlantic wind and currents to help him in his journey and how did he eat?

    Britain and India, such journey are easy compared to a journey across the uncharted Atlantic, Britain was just across from Europe and one did not need amazingly good ship construction to get there. india was just as accesible via coastal sailing routes and had been discovered by Europeans proper in the 4th century and even ruled by some. The comparison is unsound.

    Holy Blood Holy Grail is bogus and based on nothingness, there was an expose on the authors by Tony Robinson which amounted to a virtual admission of fakery.

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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    Quote Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar View Post
    Thor Heyerdahl knew that America existed, I would also like to know if he used any knowledge of the Atlantic wind and currents to help him in his journey and how did he eat?

    Britain and India, such journey are easy compared to a journey across the uncharted Atlantic, Britain was just across from Europe and one did not need amazingly good ship construction to get there. india was just as accesible via coastal sailing routes and had been discovered by Europeans proper in the 4th century and even ruled by some. The comparison is unsound.

    Holy Blood Holy Grail is bogus and based on nothingness, there was an expose on the authors by Tony Robinson which amounted to a virtual admission of fakery.
    I think it is safe to assume that Thor Heyerdahl knew that America existed and that he ate during the voyage. It was actually his second attempt as the first boat sank. This only shows that it was not an easy thing to undertake. I don‘t have everything committed to memory but I think the foods were prepaid in an ancient fashion and that rain water was collected for fresh water on the voyage.

    I won‘t bother with Egyptian artifacts found in Australia or fossil remains of kangaroos found in Egypt. Many artifacts from several Old World cultures have been found across North and South America. Some of those are inscriptions. How they got there is not explained by them washing ashore.

    As to Holy Blood Holy Grail, you brought up the book and no one ever said it was anything at all. However, if you are discounting everything in the book, as you seem to be, then you must also discount the existence of France where the book takes place.

    Anything and everything can be tainted by unscrupulous individuals, but let us not unestablish what is recorded history because it was mentioned in a fraudulent book.


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    Bopa Member Incongruous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    I think it is safe to assume that Thor Heyerdahl knew that America existed and that he ate during the voyage. It was actually his second attempt as the first boat sank. This only shows that it was not an easy thing to undertake. I don‘t have everything committed to memory but I think the foods were prepaid in an ancient fashion and that rain water was collected for fresh water on the voyage.

    I won‘t bother with Egyptian artifacts found in Australia or fossil remains of kangaroos found in Egypt. Many artifacts from several Old World cultures have been found across North and South America. Some of those are inscriptions. How they got there is not explained by them washing ashore.

    As to Holy Blood Holy Grail, you brought up the book and no one ever said it was anything at all. However, if you are discounting everything in the book, as you seem to be, then you must also discount the existence of France where the book takes place.

    Anything and everything can be tainted by unscrupulous individuals, but let us not unestablish what is recorded history because it was mentioned in a fraudulent book.
    Holy Blood Holy Grail was brought up by myself because all this talk of "finds" of ancient Egyptian, Celtic, Roman or whatever artifacts across the globe reminded me of all the "finds" reported in that absurd book.

    You are taking my words and painting them a shade of stupid, I dislike that colour, I was implying that all the claims pertaining to a hidden "history" or a Priory of Sion in that infernal book are false and made up, such was as I have already said virtually admitted to by one of the authors in that Channel Four exposé.

    No onto the crossing of the Atlantic, so, he failed once out of a total of two times and he knew of the existence of America and set out on a voyage knowing full well where he was headed and thus planned for such a voyage. Any ancient ship which found itself wandering off coarse through the Pillars of Herakles into the Atlantic would be stuffed, the navigators would have no idea where they were going and supplies would be insufficient for such a journey. Again ancient ships were not built for the high seas,they would have simply been wrecked in the Atlantic, and please, Australia from Egypt? Even from the Cape that journey is simply absurd.

    Please do post up the facts of these finds, I want to know what sort of archeology they are based upon.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    Sorry Bopa the Magyar, I didn’t intend to color you in any fashion. I merely wished to point out that a disregard for what is established because of the taint of a hoax can be damaging.

    There have been artifacts found of ancient Egyptian origin in Australia but there have also been hoaxes. It is the same in the Americas.

    If one troughs out everything touched by hoaxes then one would believe nothing.

    Older finds are impossible to verify other than the artifact them selves. They are only anecdotal evidences.

    One example, or several together would be in Galveston Texas. The remains of one or more ships were examined in the late 19th century. An expert stated they they match those of Roman ships of some period or other, I just can‘t recall. There was also evidence of a bridge found on shore also possibly attributable to them. A scholar from some years before the discovery also said that one of the Native Indian languages of the area showed a Latin influence. The language is now extinct. Roman coins and other artifacts have turned up in the general vicinity.

    Australia & Ancient Egyptians:

    I don’t vouch for the facts found here one way or the other. It is the internet for god sake.

    http://www.domainofman.com/forum/ind...ames;read=2045


    According to Cairo Times, in 1982, archaeologists working at Fayum, near the Siwa Oasis uncovered fossils of kangaroos and other Australian marsupials.

    I have no idea of the veracity of the story. Nor is it particularly of any importance.


    I was not referring to any hidden histories for the Priory of Sion or anything else hidden.

    It was a breakaway from the Knights Templar that existed for a time in the 13th century. That is not hidden. What hoaxers may have done with claims of deep hidden knowledge does not bare on that.

    As to the Ancients of all lands we are left with puzzles. The ancient Egyptians are said to have been a red race and in some regards resembled Native American Indians.
    Kennewick Man was a 9000 year old Caucasian found in Washington state USA.
    There is the mystery of the cocaine mummies which leaves a host of questions.
    There are the huge bronze doors for structures high in the Andes.
    Bronze fittings have been found in buildings in Mexico but no records of bronze work or even additional evidence of the knowledge of bronze can be found.

    There are enough of these to question our views of the ancient past. Unfortunately we are still exploring answers.

    I have engaged in mild speculation based on anecdotal evidence and reasonable possibilities. If a Roman vessel could be wrecked on the South American coast carrying hundreds of amphora (some found in tact) it is not wild to ask if their may have been survivors, since other artifacts of Roman design or manufacture have been found ashore.

    I believe that most scholars would not exclude accidental contact as a possibility, even if highly unlikely. After all, we are talking about thousands of years. Saying no contact was possible at all flies in the face of those artifacts.

    As to ship technology let us not forget that there were other more adept cultures who manufactured ships than the Romans. I think that Caesar‘s account of Venettii ships would suite them for deep water travel and I doubt that they were totally unique to that one single tribe. There are also the Frisians, the Basques, the Portuguese, and many others to consider, before we look at the Far East or South America and a different topic.
    Last edited by Fisherking; 02-20-2009 at 12:15.


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    Vindicative son of a gun Member Jolt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    As to the Ancients of all lands we are left with puzzles. The ancient Egyptians are said to have been a red race and in some regards resembled Native American Indians.
    Wierd. Never ever heard of such a thing (Even in my course of Egyptology). And I doubt it is even possible, much more arguable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    There are the huge bronze doors for structures high in the Andes.
    Bronze fittings have been found in buildings in Mexico but no records of bronze work or even additional evidence of the knowledge of bronze can be found.
    Well, for Bronze Works existed in the Americas by the sole evidence of those doors and fittings. The thing is the Native Americans discreditted or didn't realize the potential functional value of the material, thus the material was scarcely used, and only with a symbolic intention. Those explanations come from Anthropology. For instance, grain seeds were originally used by the Iberian elite as a sign of power and wealth (e.g. Symbolism), and not for a functional purpose (e.g. Planting food). Indeed, individual and tribal power as measured in some areas in Iberia from the Neolithic/Bronze Age as to how much grain seeds the tribe or individual possessed. Another example in the Americas is the wheel. The wheel as a concept existed in the Americas. There are several religious miniature models of (clay?) bulls which have instead of legs and pawns, have wheels, thus proving that the Aztecs (Where these were found) knew what the wheel was, however, they didn't understand the functional concept of that invention on a bigger scale.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    There are enough of these to question our views of the ancient past. Unfortunately we are still exploring answers.

    I have engaged in mild speculation based on anecdotal evidence and reasonable possibilities. If a Roman vessel could be wrecked on the South American coast carrying hundreds of amphora (some found in tact) it is not wild to ask if their may have been survivors, since other artifacts of Roman design or manufacture have been found ashore.

    I believe that most scholars would not exclude accidental contact as a possibility, even if highly unlikely. After all, we are talking about thousands of years. Saying no contact was possible at all flies in the face of those artifacts..
    As it may be probable that some shipwrecks got to the Americas, they would be then be starving, in a completely unknown land which a much distinct florae and faunae. Furthermore, it is rather sketchy that a handful of survivors would establish a settlement. At best, they'd probably be found by a local tribe, and if not killed, they would be assimilated into the tribe. And since those who normally made the journey to the Outer Sea were merchant and sailors, there is little chance someone with skills to share to the American tribes would survive and share their expertise with the Americans.
    Last edited by Jolt; 02-20-2009 at 13:56.
    BLARGH!

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    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Portugal found the Brazil in 1343

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolt View Post
    Wierd. Never ever heard of such a thing (Even in my course of Egyptology). And I doubt it is even possible, much more arguable.



    Well, for Bronze Works existed in the Americas by the sole evidence of those doors and fittings. The thing is the Native Americans discreditted or didn't realize the potential functional value of the material, thus the material was scarcely used, and only with a symbolic intention. Those explanations come from Anthropology. For instance, grain seeds were originally used by the Iberian elite as a sign of power and wealth (e.g. Symbolism), and not for a functional purpose (e.g. Planting food). Indeed, individual and tribal power as measured in some areas in Iberia from the Neolithic/Bronze Age as to how much grain seeds the tribe or individual possessed. Another example in the Americas is the wheel. The wheel as a concept existed in the Americas. There are several religious miniature models of (clay?) bulls which have instead of legs and pawns, have wheels, thus proving that the Aztecs (Where these were found) knew what the wheel was, however, they didn't understand the functional concept of that invention on a bigger scale.



    As it may be probable that some shipwrecks got to the Americas, they would be then be starving, in a completely unknown land which a much distinct florae and faunae. Furthermore, it is rather sketchy that a handful of survivors would establish a settlement. At best, they'd probably be found by a local tribe, and if not killed, they would be assimilated into the tribe. And since those who normally made the journey to the Outer Sea were merchant and sailors, there is little chance someone with skills to share to the American tribes would survive and share their expertise with the Americans.
    The Coptics are considered to be descendants of the Ancient Egyptians and are still a race apart from others in the region.

    It has been said that they have a coppery complexion and some other features, though I have never heard of DNA information linking them to the Americas.

    There is however DNA links from Africans to South America in some isolated populations of Indians.

    As to the bronze, as ingenious as the peoples of South America were, I find it puzzling that they would not recognize bronze for its weapons potential, however in view of the evidence of its onetime smelting I suppose it must have been ignored or lost.

    On your finial point, I too must agree. Any exchange was small and isolated.
    Last edited by Fisherking; 02-20-2009 at 16:02.


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