Classroom Application of EB (going live in a couple of months)

[Teleklos Archelaou]

The box from Amazon.com arrived this past week - inside was seven copies of RTW Gold. I have 14 students in two sections, seven in each, and I will be installing RTW Gold and then EB 1.2 (with a minor music addition) onto seven computers in our school computer lab. It will probably be April before we actually try this, but I am thinking two weeks for the project.

My students will be almost done with their year-long Ancient Greek I class. About 60-40% Grammar/Vocabulary-Culture/History. We will read and talk about Hellenistic Greek History and Alexander before the project begins, and a little about the different Greek "factions" after Alexander's death, then I will take them into the lab for a one-day introduction to the software/interface/etc. That would be about 45 minutes. Then we would have 80 min, 45 min., 45 min. that week, and then 45, 80, 45, and 45 the next week of actual playing time. They would each choose a faction and play as it, mostly autoresolving the battles. I would like to maximize the educational benefits here - with them seeing and hearing the military units on the battlefield, but focusing on learning about their faction's history and culture in the campaign map. I'm thinking about basically making them write AAR's - keeping diaries of their campaign and playing for about 5-10 years. They could only play in the lab though, as they won't have the game at home. But they could be working on their diary/AAR as homework each night (during the two weeks of this project we won't be doing any other grammar/translating really). These would be sort of "alternative history" reports, as they describe what they would have done differently at an important point in the history of the Greek world. It would be really cool if they could use images from their campaigns and make true AAR's, but that is probably asking too much - still it would be great to show people later instead of just looking at the text by itself.

So I'm asking, what do you guys think? These are mostly really good high school seniors at a terrific school with good grades (the ones with the lower grades are probably going to be even more into this btw). What sort of direction would you take this if you had total control of a Greek class with really sharp 17 year olds, a computer lab, and EB 1.2 on seven computers? Half of them are females, but the females all have high marks. Any thoughts or suggestions? I want to make this as good as it can be and possibly make a video of the students in class playing EB and talking about what they learned from it too. It could be great PR for the game but also for my class at school and the school itself if done right.

edit: Oh, I almost forgot, any spam or negative comments in this thread will be deleted post haste.

[Kull]

What a fantastic thing! Here's a couple ideas for you to consider:

1) I agree with autoresolving the battles, but you should consider using some of the pertinent historical ones (like Raphia) so they get a taste of that, too.

2) EB is all about having the opportunity to "rewrite history", but there are reasons why it flowed as it did. So when your students take their factions in a non-historical direction, it might be helpful if they wrote about that later in the context of "why didn't this happen historically"?

3) It's hard to see how the school could NOT get very favorable media coverage out of this. The angle is so obvious that the story almost writes itself: "Boring history comes to life in the classroom!" But it gets better if the twin bogeymen of "evil video games" and "the dangerous internet" are exposed as shallow oversimplifications. Video Games, properly researched, can be a fabulous interactive learning tool. And the Internet connected people of every age, nation, language, and race into a cohesive team that created a product so multi-dimensional that is boggles the mind to just think of it - the sounds of ancient languages, the sights of two and three dimensional artwork, the volumes of synthesized historical research, to say nothing of the technical accomplishments necessary to make it all work seamlessly.... as always, just "wow".

[oudysseos]

I don't know how practical this is, but I always thought that it would be really cool to do a group battle: you could set up a good historical battle on an overhead projector and divide your class into teams, selecting generals, centurions etc etc and then play hotseat or mulitplayer. The general would have to give orders to his officers who would execute them by manipulating only the units they are supposed to be in control of.

You as the teacher could pause the game from time to time for a talking point. You could even have someone betray their general and defect to the other side!

Back in the day, I had a teacher do something like that with Squad Leader (god, what a great game that was): there were about 14 of us in an after school history club. We also dressed in period uniform while playing. No girls, though.

Also I thought you might be interested in this.

[Codyos Vladimiros]

The box from Amazon.com arrived this past week - inside was seven copies of RTW Gold. I have 14 students in two sections, seven in each, and I will be installing RTW Gold and then EB 1.2 (with a minor music addition) onto seven computers in our school computer lab. It will probably be April before we actually try this, but I am thinking two weeks for the project.

My students will be almost done with their year-long Ancient Greek I class. About 60-40% Grammar/Vocabulary-Culture/History. We will read and talk about Hellenistic Greek History and Alexander before the project begins, and a little about the different Greek "factions" after Alexander's death, then I will take them into the lab for a one-day introduction to the software/interface/etc. That would be about 45 minutes. Then we would have 80 min, 45 min., 45 min. that week, and then 45, 80, 45, and 45 the next week of actual playing time. They would each choose a faction and play as it, mostly autoresolving the battles. I would like to maximize the educational benefits here - with them seeing and hearing the military units on the battlefield, but focusing on learning about their faction's history and culture in the campaign map. I'm thinking about basically making them write AAR's - keeping diaries of their campaign and playing for about 5-10 years. They could only play in the lab though, as they won't have the game at home. But they could be working on their diary/AAR as homework each night (during the two weeks of this project we won't be doing any other grammar/translating really). These would be sort of "alternative history" reports, as they describe what they would have done differently at an important point in the history of the Greek world. It would be really cool if they could use images from their campaigns and make true AAR's, but that is probably asking too much - still it would be great to show people later instead of just looking at the text by itself.

So I'm asking, what do you guys think? These are mostly really good high school seniors at a terrific school with good grades (the ones with the lower grades are probably going to be even more into this btw). What sort of direction would you take this if you had total control of a Greek class with really sharp 17 year olds, a computer lab, and EB 1.2 on seven computers? Half of them are females, but the females all have high marks. Any thoughts or suggestions? I want to make this as good as it can be and possibly make a video of the students in class playing EB and talking about what they learned from it too. It could be great PR for the game but also for my class at school and the school itself if done right.

Dude, this sounds awesome.

I did stuff like this for some of my papers in college, when they were based on military interactions. And sometimes, it was a great way to procrastinate without procrastinating.

[Novellus]

This appears to be an excellent way to get everyone's attention. The autoresolving, I wouldn't be too happy with if I were a student, especially considering how off-balanced the computer seems to be when it comes to them. But it's completely understandable since there is only so much time available.

It's a wonderful idea. So much work was put into the creation of Europa Barbarorum, and there is so much to learn from it. I myself spend about the same amount of time reading the history that the researchers put into the game as playing itself.

I wish my school had an Ancient History class. I would attempt to bring it into the classroom as well!

[Dayve]

I wish history had been like that for me at school. Two subjects i were interested in the most was history and information technology... or computers, if you like. But the teachers were crap and the classes were crap.

This is a good thing. Keep it going and EB could one day be used in classrooms all over the world. I know kids will love it, especially if they have some interest in history. I've had people walk in my room when i'm playing and ask me what's going on, and i've explained to them, showed them what i'm playing, showed them a family members unit card with all his traits and his biography, then shown them a battle on how that faction fought their battles in this time and they have just been amazed.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Amen to that.

[A Very Super Market]

My history teacher has half his room stacked with different tabletop games, and every so often he will ask us to try one out. I've played ones detailing ancienct history, colonization, medieval life, industrial revolution business, and 18th century politics. Let me just tell you as a student myself that any kid or teenager given the chance to play any fun game will inevitably enjoy the experience and learn something from it.

[Olaf Blackeyes]

THIS RIGHT HERE IS HOW SCHOOL SHOULD WORK!!!!!!!
I support this with every last little bit of weight i got. Just two things.
1.Make them read the unit descriptions, building descriptions, and have them write a report on one thing that they learn about Greeks from the experience. For example, where we get the word gymnasium from. This could be used as extra-credit or something.
2.Post the best AARs on here id LOVE to see this.

A side note, make sure they are given a sufficient tutorial on how to use the RTW engine, and give them a quick run over on what to do about CTDs so they dont freak when the EB messes up.

[Cyclops]

What a good idea. Certainly there's a heap of work on detail in the mod that could rub off on players, and its a way to get at the machinery behind the events.

Will you set them any specific goals? 5-10 years is a short time frame, but you might set each group a target e.g. "take a major city in Asia minor and hold it for 1 calendar year" (so they have to set up a reasonable admin/garrison, not just capture it and lose it to revolt straight away).

Anway good luck and good on you for making use of this excellent mod.

[lobf]

I feel like it would be hard to learn too terribly much about history playing for such a short amount of time, though maybe autocalcing will help. How old are your public computers?

As much as I would have loved to do this in high school, it may just distract the students. Or it might be an incredible learnign experience that inspires them to reach new depths in their historical knowledge. Only one way to find out. Please, let us know how this works out for your classroom.

Also, will you be revealing your role in the production of your lesson? :)

[Dayve]

I've already said EB is a book in video game form, a book people who hate reading can enjoy. EB takes all the best bits from 300 years of history and sews them together into a game that you can play at your own desired length with infinite replay value. Finish one faction, read everything about them and move on to another completely different faction, learn about a new culture, its history, then another, then another, then another, it's amazing.

It'll work. Anybody that's interested in history and especially ancient warfare will eat this game up like it was their last meal, and this game would make millions who have no interest in history whatsoever HAVE an interest in history just because of how fun it is.

Apart from the CTD's which can be very very annoying and frustrating, i'd say EB is the best thing to happen to people like us who love history. The quality of this mod is simply unbeatable and the work gone into it unmatchable. It deserves to be in classrooms. It will show kids that there is more to ancient history than Rome, and that every people in the world at this time had a rich culture and weren't mere savage barbarians like schools teach still to this day.

[Antinous]

Hey I want to be in your history class!!! Sounds like a smart plan to have your students have fun and learn at the same time. You should tell us what happens in the end. Also I agree with some people that you should have them play historical battles and pick a faction explain that factions advantage and disadvantages in the troop types. You also could try and have the kids play historical battles against each other, but have them use their own strategy and explain on a paper how this strategy would have influenced the real battle.

[Olaf Blackeyes]

I've already said EB is a book in video game form, a book people who hate reading can enjoy. EB takes all the best bits from 300 years of history and sews them together into a game that you can play at your own desired length with infinite replay value. Finish one faction, read everything about them and move on to another completely different faction, learn about a new culture, its history, then another, then another, then another, it's amazing.

It'll work. Anybody that's interested in history and especially ancient warfare will eat this game up like it was their last meal, and this game would make millions who have no interest in history whatsoever HAVE an interest in history just because of how fun it is.

Apart from the CTD's which can be very very annoying and frustrating, i'd say EB is the best thing to happen to people like us who love history. The quality of this mod is simply unbeatable and the work gone into it unmatchable. It deserves to be in classrooms. It will show kids that there is more to ancient history than Rome, and that every people in the world at this time had a rich culture and weren't mere savage barbarians like schools teach still to this day.

Quote for [rainbow] truth.
Also TELL us how it goes when u do it. I wanna know this. PLEASE!?!?!?!
(begs u pathetically)

[Mooks]

Iv never met another high schooler (im in the 11th grade) that played Total War games, much less knew what they were. Every time iv had a friend at my house while I was playing this game, they were completely confused when I was trying to teach them how to play.

You might run into a snag if these people are unfamiliar with strategy games.

[Mulceber]

Yeah, that's the one issue from my perspective - people who've never played RTW are going to have a heck of a time getting used to EB. I really needed the tutorial to learn to play Rome, and I think I'd never be able to play EB if I just picked it up without ever having tried RTW. Maybe you should have them play the tutorial on vanilla first...maybe even have them take the basic RTW home and assign the tutorial as a homework assignment. -M

[SwissBarbar]

I really love your idea, I'd really like to be in your class too, but I have to ask: are your Computers sufficient? We always had the worst kind of Computer in our classes, a game like EB would've never run on one of them. Make sure your students enjoy the game, and don't lose their nerves because of CTD's and spending 50% of the time waiting for the turn to end.

PS: Do you take in exchange-students to your class?

[HunGeneral]

That's a very interresting plan you have there Teleklos Archelaou.

I have heard several times about the concept of using Video games for Education. (EB however deserves to be called more then just "a" game) However I would also suggest you show them well how to play it - if they don't know it they might have a hard time getting used to it.
It might also give them an Interrest in History or atleats this period of it. RTW actually gave that to me and since then it has only been reinforced by EB.
The other "trick" you could try is to tell them of the events before 272. BC. but don't tell them how things developed later on (only at the end). This might make it even more interresting. Always make them read the "Year in history" messages that appear every year and ask them if any very important events are mentioned there.

I wonder how it would work. If it was possible and the students would agree could you post some of thoose "AAR's" here? I would be really interrested to know what they thought about it.

Good luck to your project.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Two or three of the students have played RTW before - after one class of introducing them to the basics I think they'll be ok with at least the campaign part. These are kids who have played computer games and had computers in their rooms at home for most of their life, so it won't be seriously challenging to acclamate them to the game I think. They already are familiar with earlier Greek history and have had lectures on Bronze Age Greece (and seen a video about Mycenaeans), had lectures on Early Greek history, given Powerpoint presentations on different aspects of the Persian Wars, had lectures on Classical History and Greek religion, and will be familiar with Alexander (I'll show some of the best parts of the Oliver Stone movie to them in addition to lectures) and the Hellenistic world to 272 by the time we start the project.

Also, the computers are fast enough, I did a test run on one last summer and while I won't advise huge unit numbers and cranked up graphics settings, they will be good enough to run the mod fairly fast. They would all be playing as Greek culture factions (Epeiros, KH, Maks, Seleukids, Ptolemies, or Baktria, but I'll advise against Seleukids). I'll also advise playing on an easier level for most of them.

[Cozur]

I suggest you make them battle it out in tournaments.

Allowing them to only have the interface set on "general" view. As in not being able to see the battlefield apart from what the general can see.

One of the biggest problems most of my fellow students had when we started our studies was to remember that a general could never see anything but what we can see when walking down the street (or sitting on a horse!).

Think it would give them quite a different view on being a succesfull commander, especially if they battle it out on huge settings.

[julius_caesar_the_first]

I think this is an excellent way to get them to learn more about ancient history.

An idea that I have would be to have them play the different factions in different periods of time.

This could be done by:

1. Playing the game yourself and using cheats to control the expansion of the factions in a historical manner and crating saves in important years in history.

2. Moding EB to have the campaign start in a diferent year with the factions as they were then.

I admit this could be too time consuming to be worth the effort, so maybe it's not such a great idea.

[Ibrahim]

I have reservations about this (computer memory, what type of PC, etc). that said, good idea, you should try it out teleklous.

[theoldbelgian]

another problem with autoresolve is that if the other general has high command power you nearly always lose the battle

"so you come with 3000 men to my city gates of which there are severall experienced and overal stronger then my units?"
"no mather with my 200 men i wil slaughter over 2500 of you men while losing only 15 men"

ow and give them a few houserules for more realism

[Olaf Blackeyes]

another problem with autoresolve is that if the other general has high command power you nearly always lose the battle

"so you come with 3000 men to my city gates of which there are severall experienced and overal stronger then my units?"
"no mather with my 200 men i wil slaughter over 2500 of you men while losing only 15 men"

This is true the AI has MAJORLY inflated chances of winning when auto-resolving

ow and give them a few houserules for more realism

Houserules are for Experienced RTW and EB players, i dont think students would enjoy them.

[Macilrille]

Ma Hist and a great fan of alternate ways of teaching history. If ever I get employed I intend to let them roleplay and re-enact/lifeRoleplay some times. This too is a great idea.

Good thinking.

With the gaming industry now larger then movies we need to think of new ways of teaching.

[gamegeek2]

Cmon, show them at least 1 battle...OMG PLZ1!!!

[Tarkus]

Hey Teleklos,

Really great idea! There's been some interesting research published recently in Science magazine on the value of game-based learning...see the 2 January 2009 issue if you want to dig deeper. In addition, a new book, titled What Video Games Have to Teach Us About Learning and Literacy, is particularly relevant. I do a bit of simulation software-based learning in my own job, and have found that high school-age students really appreciate the "hands-on" aspect of computer lab experiences. A few observations and suggestions for ya:

• I've found that high school students these days pick up really quickly on the mechanics of a new piece of software...much quicker than I would have expected. That said, a well-planned "tutorial" during that first 45-minute session will help them greatly in the actual exercise.
  
• Allowing students to work through the assignment individually has its merits. Alternatively, you might want to think about assigning pairs of students for this exercise. Pairing them up will force them into discussing different strategic and tactical options in a "group" setting, which is always a very useful skill to develop for more effective decision-making capabilities later in life. They could also help each other through the mechanical aspects of the software -- especially those that have previous experience with the RTW engine.
  
• Auto-resolving battles does have its downsides, but I think this is the better option. The intricacies of tactical maneuvering on the battlefield may very well be beyond the scope of this exercise. Besides, I think the more strategic outcome is of greater value to the students as a study in history and how it unfolds.
  
• As mentioned earlier by Cyclops, I think the identification of 1-2 very specific goals for each faction would be a good idea. This will help focus the students' activities and reduce their tendency to simply "play around" with the software and see what happens (I used to adopt this more vague approach and it didn't work very well). The goals could be historically realistic, and the students could then be asked to discuss in their AARs how they were able to achieve them and, if unsuccessful, why they couldn't "recreate" the faction's achievements.
  
• If possible, I would recommend that you end the exercise with each student (or pair of students) giving a brief presentation of their "AAR" to the rest of the class. This may really eat into their simulation time, but if you could build it into the exercise (or make additional time) I would do it. The other students would be able to ask questions and you could come up with some interesting questions for each faction that could stimulate discussion in the class: e.g., influence of starting position, different factional capabilities, financial constraints, etc. Again, some work on your part but definitely worth the effort for their overall experience.

Hope this helps...again, this is an awesome idea and I know we're all interested in hearing about how it comes out! Your own "AAR" of sorts, right??!

[Macilrille]

In fact this has made me try and give my first baloon...

Teleklos Archelaou

[Skullheadhq]

EB in school!?!? I wish my school had that

[Subotan]

I think that you should spend some time playing Vanilla (Whilst stressing the historical abhorrence), and letting them muck around with that for half a lesson, to show them how the controls work etc. I've found that when playing games, although people go "Uh uh, yeah, sure" when eplaining the controls, they really have no idea what to do unless you let them muck around with it on their own and let them ask you questions about it. But seriously, this is such an awesome idea. Let's hope it's good for EB and your students grades.