Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Of Huscarles

  1. #1
    Forever MTW Member Durango's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    228

    Default Of Huscarles

    Quote Originally Posted by Asai Nagamasa View Post
    I mentioned the patch only because the original release has some bugs and issues.

    The Viking Huscarles are only available in VI and are not known by any other name. I cannot remember their requirements offhand because I've played a modified version of the game for so long.

    May I ask what version you're playing? The Pocket Mod perhaps? I'm currently into the MedMod IV due to the more restricted and limited unit roster etc. compared to XL. I've considered modding the Huscarles to be slower, so that say a group of Javelins can skirmish against them.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Sv: Re: beating the game...

    Welcome Durango,

    The Pocket Mod is my own mod, so yes that would be it.

    Overpowered units are overpowered units. You can slow them and you can reduce their units size, but at their root they're very imbalanced. To balance the 1087-1453 campaign, Huscarles are best removed altogether. The generic "Viking" is one of the better units with just enough edge to make it very useful. Those introduced with the VI expansion are not needed and turn any campaign as the Danes into a farce.

    Last edited by caravel; 02-07-2009 at 23:34.

  3. #3
    Forever MTW Member Durango's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    228

    Default Sv: Re: Sv: Re: beating the game...

    Quote Originally Posted by Asai Nagamasa View Post
    Welcome Durango,

    The Pocket Mod is my own mod, so yes that would be it.
    Thank you! Ah, yes I recognize you know, you used to have another name before. I've read the Pocket Mod thread some time ago and I have to say, intriguing concept to say the least

    Quote Originally Posted by Asai Nagamasa View Post
    Overpowered units are overpowered units. You can slow them and you can reduce their units size, but at their root they're very imbalanced. To balance the 1087-1453 campaign, Huscarles are best removed altogether. The generic "Viking" is one of the better units with just enough edge to make it very useful. Those introduced with the VI expansion are not needed and turn any campaign as the Danes into a farce.

    How about stripping them down to their underwear in the battle mode, so that they become embarrassing to use... or put silly hats on them. Or, better yet, have them be only recruitable from a special province ala the Homelands? Norway should have the honor. This way, they become somewhat un-spammable.

    Meh, I've never really liked them anyway. As you say, they play out the best when out of the main campaign. They were made for clashes with the Irish and Picts in the VI expansion.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Sv: Re: Sv: Re: beating the game...

    I've moved these post to another thread as the other was in danger of straying off topic.

    I've tried reducing their unit size and making them dependant on an unique Royal Palace and only available in the Scandinavian provinces. However when it comes down to it, the extra Viking units from VI should stay in VI.


  5. #5
    Forever MTW Member Durango's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    228

    Default Sv: Re: Sv: Re: Sv: Re: beating the game...

    Quote Originally Posted by Asai Nagamasa View Post
    I've moved these post to another thread as the other was in danger of straying off topic.

    I've tried reducing their unit size and making them dependant on an unique Royal Palace and only available in the Scandinavian provinces. However when it comes down to it, the extra Viking units from VI should stay in VI.

    Yeah, this discussion feels like it would belong in the Pocket Mod forums.

    But yes, a few units from the VI campaign should never have made it into the big one. It's funny how you sort of gravitate toward a more restrictive structure when you realize just how much more balanced the game could be. Huscarles, Javelins, even Naptha throwers and Pikemen to a degree.

    Not strictly due to those units necessarliy being overpowered, but redundant within the build of the game. Huscarles chop their way through most enemies being fast, armour-piercing, and armoured themselves. Javelins and Napthas demand a greater range due to the AI's inability to skirmish, but Napthas still almost always hurt your own troops when you get the oppurtunity to use them. Pikemen are too easy too wrap with Swords and Halbs etc.

    But on topic, the Huscarles would after all make an interesting BG unit for the Scandinavian factions instead of regular heavy cavalry again like in the MedMod. IF they could be balanced, which they can't obviously. Maybe only have them as mercenaries in special places and buildings reqs?

    Overall, I don't really like tactics that rely on storming in and swinging axes around like some drunkard fool

    Too...wasteful. I don't like too much chaos. Chaos means that a commander has lost control. I prefer luring the enemy in and waiting for just the right moment to break their morale, and Huscarles are just the opposite of that in my mind. That makes it so satisfying to smash them with Kerns.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Sv: Re: Sv: Re: Sv: Re: beating the game...

    This is why STW simply worked because it had that pure simplicity that is important in such a game. Every faction had the same units and none had an advantage over the other. Also there were few duplicate units as with MTW where you can train several types of javelins, spears and swords at once. This array of unit choice confuses the AI and allows the play to exploit this. VI only made this problem worse. The English for example have Fyrdmen, Spearmen and Feudal Sergeants. This is pointless.
    Last edited by caravel; 02-08-2009 at 11:41.

  7. #7
    Forever MTW Member Durango's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    228

    Default Sv: Re: Sv: Re: Sv: Re: Sv: Re: beating the game...

    Quote Originally Posted by Asai Nagamasa View Post
    This is why STW simply worked because it had that pure simplicity that is important in such a game. Every faction had the same units and none had an advantage over the other. Also there were few duplicate units as with MTW where you can train several types of javelins, spears and swords at once.
    Sadly, I didn't get to play Shogun that much back in the day. I'm thinking of installing the SW mod someday though.

    However, paradoxically, I do like the variety present in MTW in contrast to Shogun. Having exactly the same units available to all factions is a bit hardcore for my taste. I prefer to have a sort of "handicap" approach to the game design whereupon the factions have different strengths and weaknesses without having access to several different versions of units.

    The problem with this approach is that the AI is not programmed for different strategies. If a specific faction has, for example, a unit roster heavy on missiles and cavalry the AI can't adapt to this limitation.
    I enjoy having to make do with what I got, but still that is easily exploitable...

    I can get around this somewhat by playing with a set of personal rules, but this isn't the optimal solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asai Nagamasa View Post
    This array of unit choice confuses the AI and allows the play to exploit this. VI only made this problem worse. The English for example have Fyrdmen, Spearmen and Feudal Sergeants. This is pointless.
    One solution for this that is in the MedMod is placing restrictions on the trainable units per era, and I'm guessing that this is either in the Pocket Mod or was considered a long time ago. It's the best way I can think of to have a line of three spears/swords/cav with only one per era. Although with the spear line of units, I imagine that the way the game handles them puts an obstacle on this. As far as I know, in Shogun, the spears functioned like halbs in that they actively killed cavalry. Unlike in MTW, where they stand around in a block hoping that something runs into their pointy sticks...

    Maybe removing the whole spear line and replacing them with faction specific halbs would work?

  8. #8

    Default Re: Sv: Re: Sv: Re: Sv: Re: Sv: Re: beating the game...

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango View Post
    Sadly, I didn't get to play Shogun that much back in the day. I'm thinking of installing the SW mod someday though.
    The SW mod is easily my favourite mod for MTW. I'd highly recommend it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango View Post
    However, paradoxically, I do like the variety present in MTW in contrast to Shogun. Having exactly the same units available to all factions is a bit hardcore for my taste. I prefer to have a sort of "handicap" approach to the game design whereupon the factions have different strengths and weaknesses without having access to several different versions of units.
    Of course in MTW having the same units available to all factions clearly wouldn't work. Though factions could be balanced better than they are to ensure that the game has a balanced RPS system in place. The strengths and weaknesses should be exactly that, they should not be as in RTW where some factions are ridiculous overpowered and others serve as "targets" for these factions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango View Post
    The problem with this approach is that the AI is not programmed for different strategies. If a specific faction has, for example, a unit roster heavy on missiles and cavalry the AI can't adapt to this limitation.
    I enjoy having to make do with what I got, but still that is easily exploitable...
    Precisely. The problem with unbalanced factions is that those factions with the strongest sword infantry and heavy cavalry do best in AI vs AI autocalced battles. MTW also suffers from regional imbalance and easily exploitable trade, but that's another issue. It is the main cause of the predictable nature of the campaign however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango View Post
    One solution for this that is in the MedMod is placing restrictions on the trainable units per era, and I'm guessing that this is either in the Pocket Mod or was considered a long time ago. It's the best way I can think of to have a line of three spears/swords/cav with only one per era. Although with the spear line of units, I imagine that the way the game handles them puts an obstacle on this. As far as I know, in Shogun, the spears functioned like halbs in that they actively killed cavalry. Unlike in MTW, where they stand around in a block hoping that something runs into their pointy sticks...

    Maybe removing the whole spear line and replacing them with faction specific halbs would work?
    Yes the era restrictions are a core part of this mod.

    As to the spears, yes you're absolutely right in that turning spears into what are effectively lower quality halberdiers is the best solution. Changing some attributes can get spears to behave something more like Yari Samurai in STW. There is also the issue of the hardcoded bonus that swords get vs spears, but this can be compensated for.

    Last edited by caravel; 02-08-2009 at 16:57.

  9. #9
    Forever MTW Member Durango's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    228

    Default Sv: Re: Sv: Re: Sv: Re: Sv: Re: Sv: Re: beating the game...

    Quote Originally Posted by Asai Nagamasa View Post
    The SW mod is easily my favourite mod for MTW. I'd highly recommend it.
    Sounds terrific!

    Quote Originally Posted by Asai Nagamasa View Post
    Of course in MTW having the same units available to all factions clearly wouldn't work. Though factions could be balanced better than they are to ensure that the game has a balanced RPS system in place. The strengths and weaknesses should be exactly that, they should not be as in RTW where some factions are ridiculous overpowered and others serve as "targets" for these factions.
    Right. Another way to achieve better balance would of course be to remove all weapon and armour upgrades and perhaps also the higher level valour bonuses.

    I intend to do this for my own home mod. I gather this is also a feature of the PM/SW mod?

    Concerning Rome, I didn't play that one much at all. I was not struck by the hype when it was released, neither was I impressed with what I saw. Only played some at a friend's place. Terrible feel to it compared to MTW. I'm not at all impressed with graphics, and I can probably see myself sticking with the older games for an indefinite period of time

    Quote Originally Posted by Asai Nagamasa View Post
    Precisely. The problem with unbalanced factions is that those factions with the strongest sword infantry and heavy cavalry do best in AI vs AI autocalced battles. MTW also suffers from regional imbalance and easily exploitable trade, but that's another issue. It is the main cause of the predictable nature of the campaign however.
    Hmm, yes, the way the game counts only melee stats when doing the autocalc really, as you say, seem to favour the factions with robust infantry and cheap but good cavalry. Huscarles, again...

    But the trade could, with proper rebalancing and tweaking, be a better income generator than farming. Farming creates wealth in a way that's simply a matter of math, the more land = the richer you are which easily favours a competitive human player. Trade is more unstable and unpredictable, relying not on permanent ownership of provinces but on having enough ships....while staying on good terms with other naval powers. Fortune could favor anyone, when wars rage across the seas, and trade income could fluctuate majorly if the system could be made to work.

    When I played XL, only the first 20-30 turns were challenging with the nerfed trade and increased farming income. After 6 provinces or so, the AI is doomed and I become bored. Great quality mod, but it's not very difficult and punishing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asai Nagamasa View Post
    Yes the era restrictions are a core part of this mod.

    As to the spears, yes you're absolutely right in that turning spears into what are effectively lower quality halberdiers is the best solution. Changing some attributes can get spears to behave something more like Yari Samurai in STW. There is also the issue of the hardcoded bonus that swords get vs spears, but this can be compensated for.

    Great

    I'm thinking that spears could simply be removed altogether, with halbs as a replacement. Maybe some grave balancing issues prevent that.

    Damn, I hate hardcoded limits. Especially the ones that seem pointless.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Sv: Re: Sv: Re: Sv: Re: Sv: Re: Sv: Re: beating the game...

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango View Post
    Right. Another way to achieve better balance would of course be to remove all weapon and armour upgrades and perhaps also the higher level valour bonuses.
    This has already been done, quite some time ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango View Post
    But the trade could, with proper rebalancing and tweaking, be a better income generator than farming. Farming creates wealth in a way that's simply a matter of math, the more land = the richer you are which easily favours a competitive human player. Trade is more unstable and unpredictable, relying not on permanent ownership of provinces but on having enough ships....while staying on good terms with other naval powers. Fortune could favor anyone, when wars rage across the seas, and trade income could fluctuate majorly if the system could be made to work.
    In this mod I increased the import tax while lowering the value of trade goods. I also made farmland upgrades a bit cheaper but didn't change their income. This seems to have worked as now only the Danes go bankrupt and only the Byzantines go berserk. Those two are to be addressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango View Post
    I'm thinking that spears could simply be removed altogether, with halbs as a replacement. Maybe some grave balancing issues prevent that.
    Well as I said spears don't need removing. They can simply be adjusted so that they are in effect Halberdiers with lower attack stats and higher defence stats. I started doing this on the PoM but never finished it, I doubt that what I have done so far has worked.

    Last edited by caravel; 02-09-2009 at 00:04.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO