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Hear ye, hear ye!
There has been a bit of a discussion recently on the topic of which faction most deserves to have their capital sacked. Then somehow it drifted from the Red Death vs the Yellow Death to "my pilum is bigger than your sarissa" . How it got there is beyond my comprehension but bitter words and threats have been exchanged, culture and military prowess offended, excuses offered and so on.
I propose we settle this the old fashioned way: one on one legionary army vs. phalanx formation in an online tournament.
This will most likely not settle the matter of "The Romans were better than the Greeks" but at least it will give everyone a chance to be a good sport and have a great time wreaking havoc among enemy armies.
My proposal for this tournament is simple: pit (say) 5 Roman generals against 5 Hellenic strategous (from any Hellenic faction), have them engage in one on one battles until one of the two cultures has been completely annihilated from the tournament.
Alternatively, we could have stages: siege, open field, ambush with factions alternatively attacking and defending cities, key positions, etc.
There should, of course, be a jury for this and a board to promote and make sure common sense and good old sportsmanship are making this a fun time for everyone.
So who would be interested? Who among you thinks himself worthy to defend his favourite ancient culture's prowess on the battlefield? Grab your Gladius, your Xiphos, your Scutum and your Aspis and defend your faction's honour!
The Rulebook:
- Hellenic factions to be represented: Epeiros, Koinon Hellenon, Makedonia, Arche Seleukeia, Ptolemaioi, Pontos.
Baktria will not be allowed as a participant faction.
- EB v 1.2 shall be used for this tournament. That is to say clean install, no additional mods, all fixes.
- Roman reforms limitations
In the interest of historical accurateness Roman reformed units shall be limited when fighting Epeiros to Camillan, against Koinon Hellenon, and Makedonia to Polybian and Marian when engaging an army of Ptolemaioi, Arche Seleukeia, and Pontos.
So:
Camillan vs. Epeiros
Polybian vs. Koinon Hellenon, Makedonia
Marian vs. Arche Seleukeia, Pontos, Ptolemaioi
Furthermore, versions of units from earlier reforms than the one the army should be fighting in will not be accepted (i.e. Camillan Triarii in Polybian Armies, Camillan Principes idem, etc.) nor are “earlier” units to be accepted in later, reformed armies, for example Rorarii in Polybian armies, Hastati, Principes, Triarii in Marian. In-game, the unit description will say whether a unit is Camillan, Polybian or Marian.
Exceptions: Accensi in Polybian, Velites in Marian.
(for a detailed list, see EB website) - Unit limitation I Unit recruitment shall be limited to those units published on the EB website for each respective faction.
Check here.
- Unit limitation II
- Elephant units are limited to 1 for Epeiros, 2 for Arche Seleukeia and Ptolemaioi (if you honestly think you can afford it).
- Missile unit number shall be limited to 6 (that includes: Sphendonetai, Toxotai of any kind, Akontistai, Velites and Accensi. Peltastai fall under a different category. Missile cavalry will be count as cavalry.)
- Legion and Phalanx unit minimum
Each army must have at least a number of 6 Legionary (Hastati, Principes, Cohors Reformata) or Phalanx (Phalangitai, Hoplitai) units in its makeup. - Allied/Mercenary units
The ratio of faction/mercenary units is 2-1, and this is for all infantry units and 1-1 for cavalry units. (e.g.: 2 Eqvites Romani & 2 Eqvites Extraordinarii; 2 Hetairoi & 2 Mistophoroi Thraikioi Prodromoi, et cetera) - Concerning cavalry
Maximum cavalry units is 4, of which maximum 2 heavy cavalry. (Cavalry "general" units do no count- i.e. Somatophylakes Strategou/Eqvites Consulari) - Historical army formation
(yes, gentlemen, that means levies)
After careful debating, the jury has decided on the following ratio for Levy-Standard-Elite units respectively: 2-3-1, this is for all units except cavalry.
Levy: Any unit priced under 1200 mnai or that has “levy” in its unit description (e.g.: Accensi, Rorarii, Akontistai, Illyrian Costal Levies, Hoplitai Haploi, Phalangitai Deuteroi/Pantadapoi/Machimoi, etc.)
Standard units (or the rank-and-file/backbone of the army): Any unit priced between 1200 and 2900 mnai or that does not have the words “levy” or “elite” in its description. (e.g.: Hoplitai, Pezhetairoi, Peltastai, Thureophoroi, Thorakitai, Principes, etc.)
Elite: Any unit priced over 2900 mnai, that is a better version of a standard unit (reforms notwithstanding) or that has the word “elite” in its description. E.g.: Pedites Extraordinarii, Spartiatai/Epilektoi Hoplitai, Argyraspides, Macedonian Reformed Phalanx, Ptolemaic Basilikon Agema, Ptolemaic Klerouchikon Agema, Hypaspistai, Peltastai Makedonikoi/Pheraspides, Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou, Thraikioi Rhompaiaphoroi, Toxotai Kretikoi/Syriakoi, Sphendonetai Rhodioi. ("General" units do nout count as elites for the purpose of this count.)
For Roman armies, this is a little different, which means:
Camillan/Polybian: 2 Light infantry (Velites, Accensi, Hastati Samnitici, Rorarii) – 2 Hastati – 2 Principes – 1 Triarii -1 Pedites Extraordinarii/Other elite unit.
Marian: 1 Antesignani – 1 Cohors Evocata – 2 Cohors Reformata (with only one Prima Cohors Reformata per army.) - Unit number limitations
None whatsoever. Go crazy with your 20-stack!
- Funds available40.000 Mnai.
- Battle replays
The replay file should be universally available after the battle, so everyone could get a taste of the action. It will be up to the jury to then make up an AAR of sorts with screenies and comments added for flavour.
- No Upgrades At least no more than 1 bronze chevron.
- Match-up
Point system, 2 match-ups per participant.
Victory points awarded for victory (1 pt each). At the end the Imperator and Strategos with the most points will fight the final battle to decide the winner.
In the event of a tie, there will be an additional knock-out round to decide the two contestants for the final round.
Mini-rules:
- A. Tie-breaker tier: in the event of an unresolved battle (draw), and if the two parties have not settled on a re-match, the jury will decide on the winner and the following will be taken into consideration.
- No charging through your own lines.
- If you have elephants, notify your opponent before the battle.
- A-historical or ridiculous phalanx manoeuvres, such as charging towards enemy then lowering sarissas just before impact, 180-degree turns while engaged in combat.
B. Disqualification Tier. You break 'em, you bought the farm. - “Phalanx Penetration” exploit (ordering unit to charge behind phalanx unit to bypass spears).
- Under no circumstances can you deploy your troops at the end of the field against the "red line" that contours the battlefield so that your flanks are protected by the imaginary red line.
- If an army is surrounded (particularly a phalanx box) the one encircled must push through in a reasonable amount of time or otherwise forfeit.
The surrounding army must completely encircle its opponent (i.e. all soldiers must be shoulder to shoulder forming a circle -or polygon, if you will- around the enemy army). - If an army is left with only cavalry units then it should engage the enemy in a reasonable amount of time or otherwise forfeit.
And Additional prizes will be awarded for:- Best Cavalry Commander,
- Best Ambush,
- Best Phalanx Formation (as in, combination of units for maximum efficiency),
- Best Legionary Formation,
- The special “Herodotus” Prize for most historically accurate army formation,
- The special “Nike-Victoria” award for the undefeated generals of the first stage,
- The “Butcher” award for most kills with least casualties,
- The “Menander” award for funniest moment.
Extensive Multiplayer Guide (by Tolg):
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Historical army make-up guides for participants:
(these are guidelines and not to be taken as actual rules)
Maion's Makedonia, Epeiros and Koinon Hellenon:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
IrishHitman's "stricter" Late Alexandrian army:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Signatures for contestants:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
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Isn't there going to be problems given that whatever terrain that you choose for the map will advantage one army over the other? Also if the army is just going to be Phalanx vs just Legions then wouldn't the legions win because the Phalanx wouldn't be able to access the more mobile troops to protect the flanks?
Originally Posted by :
Also if the army is just going to be Phalanx vs just Legions then wouldn't the legions win because the Phalanx wouldn't be able to access the more mobile troops to protect the flanks?
He didn't say that there may only be phalangites or only legionaries. Each general should be free to use whatever he wants, as long as the core of the army are legionaries/a phalanx. And of course using too many non-factional troops would beat the purpose as well.Also if the army is just going to be Phalanx vs just Legions then wouldn't the legions win because the Phalanx wouldn't be able to access the more mobile troops to protect the flanks?
Originally Posted by :
Isn't there going to be problems given that whatever terrain that you choose for the map will advantage one army over the other?
What about rematches with the position reversed? (I assume they are decided depending on who's the attacker)Isn't there going to be problems given that whatever terrain that you choose for the map will advantage one army over the other?
I like the idea though I've always been a cavalry commander and hence won't participate myself.
This is a very interesting idea, when I get my new laptop I may consider installing a clean version of EB 1.2 and fire Multiplayer. I'll fight as Makedonia.
Maion
P.S.: Btw, a sarissa is bigger that a pilum, you know
Maion
P.S.: Btw, a sarissa is bigger that a pilum, you know
interesting idea... the only thing it shouldnt be presented as Romani vs KH (that would be legionaries vs hoplitai), but Romani vs Macedon 
Originally Posted by Sarkiss:
interesting idea... the only thing it shouldnt be presented as Romani vs KH (that would be legionaries vs hoplitai), but Romani vs Macedon
I second that. So it will be legionaries vs phalangites. Oh, I'm so eager to kick some Romaioi buttinteresting idea... the only thing it shouldnt be presented as Romani vs KH (that would be legionaries vs hoplitai), but Romani vs Macedon
Maion
To address the issues at hand:
1. Of course it won't be just legion vs. only phalanx units. The phalanx would get slaughtered... unless the Roman general is a complete moron or the Greek a "divine tactician".
And we'll have a restricted roster... i.e. no mercenary units unless they're of the same culture as your faction (i.e.: no elephants for the Romans, no Samnite mercs for the Greeks, etc.)
2. It was never the issue whether it be legion vs hoplitai or phalangitai phalanx... just phalanx. I for one think each Greek culture should be represented. Alternatively, in the interest of fairness we could have a poll to determine which Hellenic culture should represent the lot.
And yes, I know a sarissa is bigger than a pilum. That was the intended pun.
Oh, and is there anyway we can get an easily unistallable patch/minimod to rearrange that multiplayer unit roster because it's giving me the willies.
1. Of course it won't be just legion vs. only phalanx units. The phalanx would get slaughtered... unless the Roman general is a complete moron or the Greek a "divine tactician".
And we'll have a restricted roster... i.e. no mercenary units unless they're of the same culture as your faction (i.e.: no elephants for the Romans, no Samnite mercs for the Greeks, etc.)
2. It was never the issue whether it be legion vs hoplitai or phalangitai phalanx... just phalanx. I for one think each Greek culture should be represented. Alternatively, in the interest of fairness we could have a poll to determine which Hellenic culture should represent the lot.
And yes, I know a sarissa is bigger than a pilum. That was the intended pun.
Oh, and is there anyway we can get an easily unistallable patch/minimod to rearrange that multiplayer unit roster because it's giving me the willies.
Sounds like a wonderfull idea, also should be a hell of a lot of fun to try and use the actual tactics used back in the day[as much as that's possible in the RTW engine].
I'd like to get some more info on what's specificly neccesary to play online etc, iff it's do-able i'd like to represent the true reds
. Hopefully this tourny will take some time to set up so I can just get enough time to reach marian reforms in my grand roman campaign and get used to them after almost 100 years of the old checkerboard <3
I'd like to get some more info on what's specificly neccesary to play online etc, iff it's do-able i'd like to represent the true reds
. Hopefully this tourny will take some time to set up so I can just get enough time to reach marian reforms in my grand roman campaign and get used to them after almost 100 years of the old checkerboard <3Originally Posted by Burebista:
2. It was never the issue whether it be legion vs hoplitai or phalangitai phalanx... just phalanx. I for one think each Greek culture should be represented. Alternatively, in the interest of fairness we could have a poll to determine which Hellenic culture should represent the lot.
I think Macedonia should represent the phalangitai, they are the most traditional faction in terms of Alexandros Megas-like warfare, Epeiros was considered to be a barbarian faction, the seleucids use too many asian units, the ptolemaioi too many egyptian ones, Bactria has HAs and lacks elite phalanx, and Pontos doesn't even use normal hetaroi bodyguards (of course Bactria doesn't either).2. It was never the issue whether it be legion vs hoplitai or phalangitai phalanx... just phalanx. I for one think each Greek culture should be represented. Alternatively, in the interest of fairness we could have a poll to determine which Hellenic culture should represent the lot.
Edit: The Hoplitai were already outdated by 272BC and they don't even fight as phalanx due to engine limitations. (Or due to too many difficulties with the animations.)
Nice idea. If this is going to happen, please make a video of the battles and put the best of them on youtube. So everyone can enjoy.
I have every intention of making this tournament happen. There are a few issues that need be sorted out in advance, of course, princely at this point: unit roster and Hellenic representation. So Rootje and all, you'll have enough time to get used to any tactics you want (oh, and... the checkerboard never gets old!).
Firstly Those interested in being members of the jury, please PM me so we can confer on a few topics.
Second I'd like to have an artwork team to design prizes/trophies/custom signatures for the participant and winners. I think that would add some flair to the whole thing.
Third and very important Regarding the issue of which faction to represent the Greeks: Epeiros were, indeed, considered barbarians and they have a score of barbarian units to show for that. Seleukids, Ptolemaioi, Pontos and Baktria have too many Asian/Egyptian units despite being technically Hellenic cultures.
That leaves Makedonia and Koinon Hellenoi. Admittedly, Alexandros (everyone's favourite butcher) was a divine tactician and Phillip's Phalangitai were the creme de la creme of Greek infantrymen, I don't think the Hoplitai were obsolete, they did adapt and Spartan Hoplites were this widely regarded as the best soldiers in the world (be it boastfully or otherwise). Admittedly, if you pit Phalangitai against Hoplitai in one on one head-on combat, I'd have my money on the Makedonian phalanx, but remember the issue here is mobility. Now which of the two do you think is more mobile?
Oh, and I will ask participants to save and send the recorded battles for our viewers to enjoy. After-Action Reports and commentaries will be issued by the jury at the end of a battle.
Firstly Those interested in being members of the jury, please PM me so we can confer on a few topics.
Second I'd like to have an artwork team to design prizes/trophies/custom signatures for the participant and winners. I think that would add some flair to the whole thing.
Third and very important Regarding the issue of which faction to represent the Greeks: Epeiros were, indeed, considered barbarians and they have a score of barbarian units to show for that. Seleukids, Ptolemaioi, Pontos and Baktria have too many Asian/Egyptian units despite being technically Hellenic cultures.
That leaves Makedonia and Koinon Hellenoi. Admittedly, Alexandros (everyone's favourite butcher) was a divine tactician and Phillip's Phalangitai were the creme de la creme of Greek infantrymen, I don't think the Hoplitai were obsolete, they did adapt and Spartan Hoplites were this widely regarded as the best soldiers in the world (be it boastfully or otherwise). Admittedly, if you pit Phalangitai against Hoplitai in one on one head-on combat, I'd have my money on the Makedonian phalanx, but remember the issue here is mobility. Now which of the two do you think is more mobile?
Oh, and I will ask participants to save and send the recorded battles for our viewers to enjoy. After-Action Reports and commentaries will be issued by the jury at the end of a battle.
I think that any faction with a phalanx tradition that the Romans actually fought should be eligible as long as most of the infantry core is phalangites.
That means Epeiros, Pontus, Makedonia, KH, AS, Ptolomies, and Pontus.
Also, you need to have a list of eligible maps unless you just want to play on Irish Marshland which of course gives a big advantage to the phalanx due to flat nothingness.
That means Epeiros, Pontus, Makedonia, KH, AS, Ptolomies, and Pontus.
Also, you need to have a list of eligible maps unless you just want to play on Irish Marshland which of course gives a big advantage to the phalanx due to flat nothingness.
*Bursts through tent flap heroically, the sun shining in*
Ptolemaic strategos, volunteering.
(I could be any of the other Diodochi, if need be)
Ptolemaic strategos, volunteering.
(I could be any of the other Diodochi, if need be)
Makedonia signed up, provided the time is convenient.
DAMN ROMANS, STEALING GREEK SUPREMACY.
DAMN ROMANS, STEALING GREEK SUPREMACY.
This sounds very interesting 
It does indeed, even though we already know who is the superior one, the Hellenes ofcourse 
. But we might as well give these Romani barbarians a fair chance to show them the light
.
Anyways, should there be a rule which makes people use Historical correct tactics and armies?
And maybe some minirules like: No charging cavalry through your own line, not changing from enemy with Phalangites if engaged?
I'm not sure if I join this, if I would I would most certainly join as the Koinen Hellenon. The Greek City States are after all the most supreme force ever to have existed
. Sparta stands unrivaled troughout the world!
. But we might as well give these Romani barbarians a fair chance to show them the light.Anyways, should there be a rule which makes people use Historical correct tactics and armies?
And maybe some minirules like: No charging cavalry through your own line, not changing from enemy with Phalangites if engaged?
I'm not sure if I join this, if I would I would most certainly join as the Koinen Hellenon. The Greek City States are after all the most supreme force ever to have existed
. Sparta stands unrivaled troughout the world!Regarding army rules, I would hope merely putting a limit on elephant, horse, and archer units would be sufficient, along with a required amount of legions/phalangitai. Some creativity needs to be allowed, after all.
With some creativity you even can create "early", "middle and "late" Phalanx armies.
I propose that all participants in the competition be required to record their games and upload them to youtube!
Originally Posted by desert:
I propose that all participants in the competition be required to record their games and upload them to youtube!
here here!!I propose that all participants in the competition be required to record their games and upload them to youtube!
I'll try to get on the online battle-I've yet to see if comcast blocks me or not. I've Pmed Burebista.
so, what day? I prefer saturday.
In order to give as much as possible the most needed accurancy we could limit the units eligible depending on the factions that will fight. For intance, if Makedonia will face the romans, the roman general would not be able to use marian legions because at that time the makedonia state was already part of the roman empire.
Just an idea.
Just an idea.
Originally Posted by Lucio Domicio Aureliano:
In order to give as much as possible the most needed accurancy we could limit the units eligible depending on the factions that will fight. For intance, if Makedonia will face the romans, the roman general would not be able to use marian legions because at that time the makedonia state was already part of the roman empire.
Just an idea.
that's not a bad idea. not bad at all. in fact, perfect.In order to give as much as possible the most needed accurancy we could limit the units eligible depending on the factions that will fight. For intance, if Makedonia will face the romans, the roman general would not be able to use marian legions because at that time the makedonia state was already part of the roman empire.
Just an idea.
Thank you all for your support and interest!
I'm pleased to let you know we already have (half) a jury, so things are well under way.
What we would really, really need at this moment are some more players to represent the Romans. So if you know any Rome fanatics who'd like to defend Roman arms... do let them know, please.
Regarding the issue of limitations: I like the idea of no Marian units when fighting Makedonia, though due to the EB system that may be both unnecessary and unfair.
So far, the only "limitations" I can think of would be on non-factional mercenary units and, of course... the fact that Romans msut have legionnary units and the Hellenes, the phalanx. Otherwise, it is completely at the general's discretion as to how he organises his army. A detailed list of faction rosters will be issued following a debate among jury members with your opinions, of course.
Any other suggestions you may have, feel free to post them here or PM myself. Any info and feedback are more than welcome!
Once again, thank you all. And... GET ME SOME ROMANS!
Peace
I'm pleased to let you know we already have (half) a jury, so things are well under way.
What we would really, really need at this moment are some more players to represent the Romans. So if you know any Rome fanatics who'd like to defend Roman arms... do let them know, please.
Regarding the issue of limitations: I like the idea of no Marian units when fighting Makedonia, though due to the EB system that may be both unnecessary and unfair.
So far, the only "limitations" I can think of would be on non-factional mercenary units and, of course... the fact that Romans msut have legionnary units and the Hellenes, the phalanx. Otherwise, it is completely at the general's discretion as to how he organises his army. A detailed list of faction rosters will be issued following a debate among jury members with your opinions, of course.
Any other suggestions you may have, feel free to post them here or PM myself. Any info and feedback are more than welcome!
Once again, thank you all. And... GET ME SOME ROMANS!
Peace
... I wouldn't mind getting the replay files either. That's probably better than Youtube's blurryness.
I'd volunteer for the Romani!
Originally Posted by We shall fwee...Wodewick:
I'd volunteer for the Romani!
well then: PM Burebista (you have to)I'd volunteer for the Romani!
Aye Aye Captain!
Well, you don't have to PM me... I keep a close eye on this thread.
Anyway, yes I'm glad to have another Roman general.
So let's see, then... so far, we have in the Red corner, representing zee Romans:
Rootje
The guy with a Monty Python name, We shall fwee...Wodewick
And in the orange-black-yellow-silver-etc. corner, representing the Greeks:
Gabeed [as the Yellow Death]
IrishHitman [As the Bl... no, wait, that name's taken]
Maion Maroneios [as Makedonia, when he gets his laptop]
Phalanx300 ? Tolg? (you know, Makedonia have some nice cavarly if that's your cup of tea and so do the Romans)
Who else would be interested? I'd like at least 4 on each side.
Anyway, yes I'm glad to have another Roman general.
So let's see, then... so far, we have in the Red corner, representing zee Romans:
Rootje
The guy with a Monty Python name, We shall fwee...Wodewick
And in the orange-black-yellow-silver-etc. corner, representing the Greeks:
Gabeed [as the Yellow Death]
IrishHitman [As the Bl... no, wait, that name's taken]
Maion Maroneios [as Makedonia, when he gets his laptop]
Phalanx300 ? Tolg? (you know, Makedonia have some nice cavarly if that's your cup of tea and so do the Romans)
Who else would be interested? I'd like at least 4 on each side.
4 on each side?
Do the signers have enough hardware so that they dont lag out??
Do the signers have enough hardware so that they dont lag out??
You can count me in as a substitute in case you don't find enough participants, though my abilities as an infantry commander are probably below average, meaning the the other side would have an advantage.
I could play either with the Romans or with a Greek faction. (Of course I'd like to use Hellenic Cataphracts, but they might be a bit unfair. lol)
BTW, what is the jury supposed to do?
I could play either with the Romans or with a Greek faction. (Of course I'd like to use Hellenic Cataphracts, but they might be a bit unfair. lol)
BTW, what is the jury supposed to do?
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