Legion vs. Phalanx online tournament

**A Terribly Harmful Name** · 03-07-2009, 02:15

Just my comments on this particular battle: first, I agree wholeheartedly, to whoever mentioned it first, that the troop compositions in this battle seem to be beyond reality. I mean, WTH? There were too many Hetairoi and Extraordinarii for any historically or logically plausible situation. Ergo, it might be possible according to the financial strains of the game, but in my view it seems too illogical and as an EB'er I don't like situations that stray away from history too much.

Next time you might experiment with more historically accurate situations: tweak down elites by rule, put up levies and line troops in the troop composition as a matter of principle. Then slug it each other in more demanding situations.

EDIT - As for the battle itself. I don't know if this is some kind of MP situation, since I'm unexperienced with MP, but there were many situations were troops that could be moving were instead astray or being mowed down in humiliating situations. I mean, what were these Hetairoi doing idle when the Phalanxes were being surrounded by munky's infantry?

**antisocialmunky** · 03-07-2009, 02:23

They were hiding in the woods to counter my cavalry charge. If it had hit his phalangites left side with those 600 horses, it would have been over even if I lost most of those horses. You should have had seen the first game of the night that involved my phalangites running all over the map.

Also it was in the woods... I think we both regretted that.

**A Terribly Harmful Name** · 03-07-2009, 03:13

Really? It happened later in the battle and the Hetairoi were not hiding in the woods but rather idle on the open. Well I guess it has to do with RTW's 100% trustable battle replays. I remember how they turned one of my victories into a loss

.

**tsidneku** · 03-07-2009, 06:25

Epic battle, guys! Especially on Huge scale. :) It was a very enjoyable watch.

I agree -- I think the turning point was when two of your cavalry crashed into the back of their centre line. Granted, I think the sheer mass of your pedites extraordinarii blowing up on his centre phalanx sort of destroyed any chance of that holding for long.

To be honest, I think it would have been hard for Irish to defeat you with an identical army composition. It's really hard to counter cavalry without more cavalry... or I guess, theoretically more heavy infantry to cover flanks.

**IrishHitman** · 03-07-2009, 19:01

Originally Posted by tsidneku

Epic battle, guys! Especially on Huge scale. :) It was a very enjoyable watch.

I agree -- I think the turning point was when two of your cavalry crashed into the back of their centre line. Granted, I think the sheer mass of your pedites extraordinarii blowing up on his centre phalanx sort of destroyed any chance of that holding for long.

To be honest, I think it would have been hard for Irish to defeat you with an identical army composition. It's really hard to counter cavalry without more cavalry... or I guess, theoretically more heavy infantry to cover flanks.

My Companions did well enough.
His cav was very messed up by the time my Agrianians jumped in as well.
Only interference from Triarii saved his remaining cavalry, and then those almost fell to the Agrianians as well.

**antisocialmunky** · 03-07-2009, 19:03

So were your Companions. But I agree, those Agrianians in woods were ridiculous.

**alexanderthegreater** · 03-08-2009, 10:48

Originally Posted by Basileos ton Ellenon

Just my comments on this particular battle: first, I agree wholeheartedly, to whoever mentioned it first, that the troop compositions in this battle seem to be beyond reality. I mean, WTH? There were too many Hetairoi and Extraordinarii for any historically or logically plausible situation. Ergo, it might be possible according to the financial strains of the game, but in my view it seems too illogical and as an EB'er I don't like situations that stray away from history too much.

Next time you might experiment with more historically accurate situations: tweak down elites by rule, put up levies and line troops in the troop composition as a matter of principle. Then slug it each other in more demanding situations.

EDIT - As for the battle itself. I don't know if this is some kind of MP situation, since I'm unexperienced with MP, but there were many situations were troops that could be moving were instead astray or being mowed down in humiliating situations. I mean, what were these Hetairoi doing idle when the Phalanxes were being surrounded by munky's infantry?

I agree and i think it has to do with 40 000 mnai just being to much, you can basically get an arm of all elites with that. Is it still up for discussion?

**antisocialmunky** · 03-08-2009, 14:58

BTW guys, here's a army composition excerpt from Quintus Sertorius' Guide to Conduct Becoming of a True Roman (Redux for EB). Too bad we can't actually make most of these armies :-p.

Camillian
The Roman core of a Camillian consular army is two legions, represented by the following units:
1 unit of Leves
1 unit of Accensi
1 unit of Rorarii
2 units of Hastati
2 units of Principes
2 unit of Triarii
Optional: 1 unit of Equites (your FM tribune/legate can count as Roman cavalry)

The two socii alae are composed as follows:
2 units of allied skirmishers (any mix of javelineers, archers and slingers)
4 units of allied infantry (two different pairs of Samnite, Lucanian, Bruttium, Ligurian or Gallic infantry)
1 unit of pedites extraordinarii
1 unit of classical hoplites
1 or 2 units of allied cavalry (Campanian, Greek, Gallic, Ligurian or anything else available, or possibly equites extraordinarii)

Polybian
The Roman core of a Polybian consular army is two legions, represented by the following units:
1 unit of Velites
1 unit of Accensi
2 units of Hastati
2 units of Principes
1 unit of Triarii (or two if you're playing with half-sized maniples)
Optional: 1 unit of Equites (your FM tribune/legate can count as Roman cavalry)

The two socii alae are composed as follows:
2 units of allied skirmishers (any mix of javelineers, archers and slingers)
4 units of allied infantry (two different pairs of Samnite, Lucanian, Bruttium, Ligurian, Gallic, or Iberian infantry)
1 unit of pedites extraordinarii
1 or 2 units of allied cavalry (Campanian, Greek, Gallic, Ligurian or anything else available, or possibly equites extraordinarii)

Marian
The Roman core of a Marian army is as follows:
1st Legion
1 General
1 unit of First Cohort
1 unit of cohors reformata
1 unit of antesignani

2nd Legion
1 tribune
1 unit of First Cohort
1 unit of cohors reformata
1 unit of cohors evocata

Support
1 unit of Scorpions/arrow throwers

The allied part is as follows:
1 unit of allied javelin-men
1 unit of allied slingers or archers
1 unit of allied cavalry
Optional: 2 units of allied close-order foot

This represents two legions and their supporting artillery, light troops, cavalry and allied infantry. Feel free to add additional support units. A third legion can be presented by adding three more cohorts as above.

An option for early post-Marian troops is to have just the First Cohort and two normal cohorts as one legion, since there were as yet no veterans to draw upon.

Disposition
Camillian and Polybian armies should be deployed in the triplex acies, three lines giving strength in depth and keeping most of your forces in reserve. Marian forces can be deployed in three, two or even one line as befits the situation.

Key:
Gen - The general
FM - Family member
Tri - Triarii (or allied hoplites)
Pri - Principes
Has - Hastati
Ski - Accensi/Leves/Velites
Ror - Roraii
ASk - Allied Skirmisher
ALI - Allied Light Infantry
AHI - Allied Heavy Infantry
Cav - Cavalry

Camillian and Polybian

----ASk----Ski----Ski----ASk
Cav-----ALI----Has----Has----ALI----FM/Cav
----AHI-----Pri-----Pri-----AHI
--------Ror-----Tri-----Tri-----Gen

Placement of the General varies, as long as he's behind the fighting line it doesn't really matter. Put the extraordinarii wherever you want to, or keep in reserve with the general. The only difference between Camillian and Polybian armies is the absence of the Rorarii.

**Βελισάριος** · 03-16-2009, 05:54

Alright, chaps... starting today/tomorrow morning (Monday, Mar 16) Round 2 is underway.
There are still two battles left to play, between HunGeneral and alexanderthegreater and Silence Hunter vs. Wodewick that are still part of Round 1, but in the meantime, we can start the second round.

I want to remind you that, at this point, the score is 3-2 in favour of the Greeks (check battle analysis thread for more details).

Before I post the match-ups, I want everyone to study the rules on the first page, which have been updated and familiarise yourselves with them and the possible armies you can create.

I'll post the match-ups later today as well as send out PMs with notifications to all.

**tsidneku** · 03-16-2009, 06:31

For further clarification -- to the closest possible ratio, right?

e.g:

4 cavalry units -- 3 elites -- 5 levies -- 8 standards. There aren't enough unit slots to quarter it off to be the perfect '2-3-1" levy-standard-elite ratio.

**Βελισάριος** · 03-16-2009, 12:43

Originally, that was the intention, since I couldn't find a reasonable ratio to span the full-stack.

But, now that I think about it, here's a better one: Min. 4 Levies, Max. 3 elites.
"General" units, Somatophylakes Strategou and Eqvites Consulari don't count as elites (or anything else, for that matter).

**antisocialmunky** · 03-16-2009, 13:42

That's pretty good and straight forward but what happened to Roman allies? I will not play Marian without allies. I'm sorry but that's just suicidal and unrealistic. You don't have the cavalry for it nor do you have anysort of worthwhile counter.

Camillan/Polybian: 1 Light infantry (Velites, Accensi, Hastati Samnitici, Rorarii) – 1 Hastati – 2 Principes – 1 Triarii -1 Pedites Extraordinarii/Other elite unit.

Marian: 1 Antesignani – 1 Cohors Evocata – 2 Cohors Reformata

I'm assuming you made a mistake in the Camillian/Polybian because there is NO 'Other Elite Unit,' NONE. And I'm assuming that we can use 1st Cohorts instead of Evocata since they are cheaper and have good stamina. Also I'm assuming as well that we can choose to not bring Antesignani as to not totally bankrupt ourselves.