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Thread: If no testudo, what else?

  1. #1
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default If no testudo, what else?

    A few months ago and probably half a page down, we had a discussion about how the testudo could be implemented. A lot of people expressed a sentiment that the testudo was unrealistic because of how the engine make a whole unit do that.

    So I ask, if not a testudo formation, how about a line switching formation?

    Is it possible to mess with the animations for formations to implement some sort of line switching thing for the romans? I mean we have ranged units doing some sort of rotation, is it possible to make that work for melee units?

    I can dream can't I?
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  2. #2

    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky View Post
    A few months ago and probably half a page down, we had a discussion about how the testudo could be implemented. A lot of people expressed a sentiment that the testudo was unrealistic because of how the engine make a whole unit do that.

    So I ask, if not a testudo formation, how about a line switching formation?

    Is it possible to mess with the animations for formations to implement some sort of line switching thing for the romans? I mean we have ranged units doing some sort of rotation, is it possible to make that work for melee units?

    I can dream can't I?
    Great idea. I hope it┤s possible to implement this.

  3. #3

    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    Sounds like an easy way for Romans to get stabbed in the back. I suppose they're used to that, though. =P

    Even if it did WORK, wouldnt it cause more pain than any help? (To the unit, that is)

  4. #4

    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    Nice idea
    Among the many solutions that the Romans used it in battle also went to fight in melee with tight formations (almost a shield attached to another) and to release and retract quickly by the gladius a little space between two shields.
    The gladius allowed greater maneuverability in mixtures where there was little room to move and then in some cases be more effective than long and cumbersome Celtic swords ..(i love this smilie)
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  5. #5
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    If we had guys move forward instead of run back, it would make more sense. The first line stays in place and everyone else moves one rank forward. The former first line then goes to the back.

    It would give the Romans an advantage since the game puts the most experienced units in the front line and damage is stored by unit.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



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  6. #6
    EB Nitpicker Member oudysseos's Avatar
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    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    Although Munky's idea is a very plausible one, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that there is actually no evidence of this kind of maneuver as formal tactical doctrine, particularly in our time period. That is, there's a difference between fresh soldiers coming forward through the intervals in frontage (itself a major area of debate) as a natural result of front-line casualties and fatigue, and the same happening only on the command of NCOs and line officers according to a battle plan or standard tactical procedure.
    We also always have to be very careful of false retrojection: things that were true of professional Roman Legions under Vespasian, Trajan and Hadrian are not necessarily true of the citizen armies of the early republic.
    οἵη περ φύλλων γενεὴ τοίη δὲ καὶ ἀνδρῶν.
    Even as are the generations of leaves, such are the lives of men.
    Glaucus, son of Hippolochus, Illiad, 6.146



  7. #7
    master of the wierd people Member Ibrahim's Avatar
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    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    I agree with oudysseos here.

    I also have to add that, IIRC, TPC mentioned that the team was contemplating making the rotation ability unique to persian/eastern archers rather than anyone else. I do not know what became of the idea however.
    Last edited by Ibrahim; 02-10-2009 at 18:22.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    there is a way to select a group (max 3 units equally between them) and ensure that they become one.

    This would allow a 3 to join handpieces on the battlefield and to train as a cohort.

    In EB is mistakenly called the cohort of the Legion since there are only 200 men (or a maniple).
    could be this special feature on the site of testudo.

    but the idea of mediolanicus is exciting, whether it is feasible.

    I am crazy for this Smilie
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  9. #9
    EB Nitpicker Member oudysseos's Avatar
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    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    Aulus, the numbers of men in a unit aren't "real": they change depending on what your video settings are and are only meant to be relative to other units, i.e. a unit of cavalry is smaller than a unit of spearmen. An EB cohort is indeed meant to be a cohort and not a maniple, the number if men in it doesn't mean anything in that respect.

    And what idea of mediolanicus are you referring to, he hasn't posted in this thread?

    I'm not so much crazy for smilies myself, but de gustibus non est disputandum .
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  10. #10
    Guitar God Member Mediolanicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    I always have exciting ideas!


    But I am totally oblivious why people are talking about me here...


    I also agree with oudysseos about "the dangers of retrojection".

    And what Ibrahim says that TPC said about someone from the team telling him about the persian archers is exciting too.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    Sorry Mediolanicus, followed another topic, and I have the wrong name (maybe I'm really aging).
    I was referring to Antisocialmunky and his idea of rotation.

    it is clear that it will never be possible to have 20000-30000 people in the field as a real battle.
    However, the number of men in the unit should be proportional: cohort 1 = 3 maniples so if the cohort was 50 men, maniples should have about 16 men.

    it is true that I am too obstinate ... but I think that in a battle (to be realistic) if you can not have real numbers, you should at least get the proportions right.

    for example 5500 legion vs. 20000 horde, hence in the game,1000 legion vs 4000 horde

    I do not know if you understand what I mean.

    The right proportions to give factions less technologically advanced, the advantage of numbers at least.
    Julius Caesar won the battle of Alesia with about 80,000 Romans vs 300,000 (!) Gauls
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  12. #12

    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aulus Caecina Severus View Post
    Sorry Mediolanicus, followed another topic, and I have the wrong name (maybe I'm really aging).
    I was referring to Antisocialmunky and his idea of rotation.

    it is clear that it will never be possible to have 20000-30000 people in the field as a real battle.
    However, the number of men in the unit should be proportional: cohort 1 = 3 maniples so if the cohort was 50 men, maniples should have about 16 men.

    it is true that I am too obstinate ... but I think that in a battle (to be realistic) if you can not have real numbers, you should at least get the proportions right.

    for example 5500 legion vs. 20000 horde, hence in the game,1000 legion vs 4000 horde

    I do not know if you understand what I mean.

    The right proportions to give factions less technologically advanced, the advantage of numbers at least.
    Julius Caesar won the battle of Alesia with about 80,000 Romans vs 300,000 (!) Gauls
    With numbers that high by the Gauls, it sounds more like Roman propaganda...
    Last edited by mikil100; 02-11-2009 at 18:09.

  13. #13

    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    No it is not propagand, the numbers are real and demonstrable.

    But my goal is not to give glory to Rome.

    I used an example to explain As the numbers affect the battles
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  14. #14
    Sharp/Charismatic/Languorous Member Novellus's Avatar
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    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    Wait a moment, so there's confirmation that there WON'T be a testudo then?
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  15. #15
    master of the wierd people Member Ibrahim's Avatar
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    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    here's where TPC mentioned the possibility of that fire by ranks formation:

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...+arrow+phalanx
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  16. #16
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    ... I've played 1 to 1 battles before ... it is actually pretty epic.

    Also, it sounded like TPC was talking about some sort of volleyed fire.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



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  17. #17
    EB Nitpicker Member oudysseos's Avatar
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    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    Alesia may not be the best example for you, Aulus: the actual numbers of Gauls involved is an area of mucho debate, although it is clear that Caesar did indeed defeat much larger forces.
    Remember however that the Gaulish forces were divided (some inside Alesia and some in the relief force) and that these numbers contained non-combatants as well: something that the RTW engine does not represent.
    More importantly, Caesar was fighting with the aid of some of the grandest battlefield fortifications the ancient world had ever seen: two lines of contravallation and circumvallation for a total of at least 40 kilometers, plus equal lengths of ditches, mantraps, caltrops etc. It truly boggles the mind. And no, battlefield fortifications are not something that the M2TW engine are going to allow us to do.

    And I have to point out that the EB team have tried as much as possible to represent relative numbers: on huge settings in EB1 a typical Gaulish levy warband is 240 men, while a Roman cohort or Macedonian Hypastist unit is about half that size. We're talking about the limits if the game engine here: we really can't do much better than that, so don't get too hung up on the numbers.

    P.S. Just so you know, if you say that something is 'demonstrable', it is up to you to demonstrate it.
    οἵη περ φύλλων γενεὴ τοίη δὲ καὶ ἀνδρῶν.
    Even as are the generations of leaves, such are the lives of men.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    yes oudysseos , you are right, I was not to alesia and so I can not prove anything.

    But in many sources you can find, ignoring the defeated Gallic (which can be manipulated by cesare).
    I read these figures in my history book of high school ...
    but your information is always valuable to me and I thank you

    However, was not telling the battle of alesia my goal.
    I chose an example that just popped up in my mind to support my thesis: ie that the proportions right have their own importance to make the game realistic.

    Returning to the speech "if not testudo, what else?" interesting is the way of combined action between two or more units (automatic) ...

    Question: but an infantry unit may be ready to wedge (where there are 2 strong sides and 1 weak)?
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  19. #19
    Member Member Macilrille's Avatar
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    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    Aulus Caecina Severus, where, I wonder, did your history book at high school get those numbers? Our only source is Caesar's own propagandistic "Gallic Wars". Source critisism is what differentiates History from fiction.

    Consider that ;-)
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  20. #20
    master of the wierd people Member Ibrahim's Avatar
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    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky View Post
    ... I've played 1 to 1 battles before ... it is actually pretty epic.

    Also, it sounded like TPC was talking about some sort of volleyed fire.
    yes, he was. the way it worked (he provided a link to a good persian info website in the same link) was that the archers would line up in this archer phalanx, and each rank fires a volley, one by one, till the volleys rotate back to the front. the idea was to maintain sustained fire for the longest period of time-a huge advancement in archery tactics.

    where is he anyways?
    Last edited by Ibrahim; 02-12-2009 at 23:47.
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  21. #21
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    Originally Posted by antisocialmunky View Post
    ... I've played 1 to 1 battles before ... it is actually pretty epic.

    Also, it sounded like TPC was talking about some sort of volleyed fire.
    nice..... with sharpened stakes or not?

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  22. #22
    master of the wierd people Member Ibrahim's Avatar
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    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute Wolf View Post
    nice..... with sharpened stakes or not?
    not sure: all I know is that there will hopefully be a databam fire by ranks system.
    I was once alive, but then a girl came and took out my ticker.

    my 4 year old modding project--nearing completion: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=219506 (if you wanna help, join me).

    tired of ridiculous trouble with walking animations? then you need my brand newmotion capture for the common man!

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  23. #23

    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    Dear Macilrille, the numbers are not certain even for the battles fought by our grandparents.
    The story was never written by the losers, but always by the winners.

    Sure that if we take for granted the number of the Romans to alesia (80,000), one can assume that the Gauls were many more because all the tribes of Gaul brought their contribution in synergy. Could be 300,000, as could be 200,000 or 400,000 ... Who knows?

    or Caesar built the most imposing fortresses siege of the ancient world for his personal pleasure (or for fear of the wolves).
    The archaeological finds near Alise Sainte Reine show like "Gallico War" has been faithful in describing the construction and ditches (was wrong only a few meters).

    Or choose to believe the historical sources (as is "War Gallico" and Cassio Dione) or we can continue to make assumptions more or less accurate according to our sympathies ...
    If you have information that I do not have, I am interested to see them because I like to know the truth :-)
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  24. #24

    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky View Post
    So I ask, if not a testudo formation, how about a line switching formation?

    Is it possible to mess with the animations for formations to implement some sort of line switching thing for the romans? I mean we have ranged units doing some sort of rotation, is it possible to make that work for melee units?

    I can dream can't I?
    Would it be possible to ensure that certain units have the following special abilities: move back automatically while fighting (then fought in front and moves back)???

    This would make it difficult for the enemy encirclement.
    Also would give the greatest effect on the chessboard.

    This special ability makes possible many strategies on the battlefield (such as that of Hannibal in Cannes).

    For me it would be nice because I always have my foot in a semi circle inducing the enemy to attack in the middle (and heroic victories)
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  25. #25
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: If no testudo, what else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aulus Caecina Severus View Post
    Would it be possible to ensure that certain units have the following special abilities: move back automatically while fighting (then fought in front and moves back)???
    It's not possible to add new special abilities. We can merely use what is already present.
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  26. #26
    Member Megas Methuselah's Avatar
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    Exclamation Re: If no testudo, what else?

    Eugh. Back in M2TW, the fire_by_rank attribute is somewhat bugged. The unit's rate of fire is not only much slower by itself alone, but also much more effected (in a negative way) by losses accrued through enemy ranged attacks. IMHO, it's best to keep the fire_by_rank attribute out the game completely. I noticed the musketeers and arquebusiers in M2TW performed much better without the thang.
    Last edited by Megas Methuselah; 02-24-2009 at 22:49.

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    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    but the fire by ranks is realistic, and will allow you to maintain constant bombarment on the enemy line, with one simoultaneous fire, this gonna doubly effective when we count the effect of fear that gunpowder weapons create. We can hope enemy will rout when all the musketters fire at once, but we won't get the indian running when we put them on one men shooting...

    try this on your Americas Campaign, and you playing as spain....

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  28. #28
    Member Megas Methuselah's Avatar
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    Exclamation Re: If no testudo, what else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute Wolf View Post
    but the fire by ranks is realistic, and will allow you to maintain constant bombarment on the enemy line, with one simoultaneous fire, this gonna doubly effective when we count the effect of fear that gunpowder weapons create. We can hope enemy will rout when all the musketters fire at once, but we won't get the indian running when we put them on one men shooting...

    try this on your Americas Campaign, and you playing as spain....
    Did you even read my post, boy? Those gunpowder units fire much more faster and aren't hindered too much by casualties without the fire_by_rank attribute. Firing by rank is a broken formation.

    EDIT: I'm speaking from experiences in M2TW. I don't know if they fixed it or not in Kingdoms.
    Last edited by Megas Methuselah; 02-26-2009 at 04:11.

  29. #29
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    Kingdoms? Why use guns when you can Mangonels?
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



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  30. #30

    Default Re: If no testudo, what else?

    Too bad the only game where there is no unit limits for modders is ETW..

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