Lack of knowledge annoyance

[The Fuzz]

I searched for a whinge thread where people can lament others' lack of historical knowledge, but came up with nothing.

Just had to get this off my chest.

I was flipping through one of those little collections of Sufi poetry, and I noticed each chapter had a bit of Arabic calligraphy. I can't read Arabic, but I instantly recognized one of the symbols. It was Mahumd II's tughra. I found a book on Ottoman history to double check, and lo and behold, it was.

At that point I put the former book down. It was pretty apparent they just shoved random pretty things in there.

I mean, that kind of ignorance is sorta astounding. The poetry in that chapter was from Hafiz. Hafiz was Persian and was dead before Mahmud II was born. I couldn't be stuffed to look up the other chapter calligraphy but I assume they were also just thrown in. You'd think someone would double check these things.

/sigh

[Brandy Blue]

Publishing is a business, with deadlines and costs, like any other. Maybe the publisher felt that there was no time or budget to hire an Arabic expert to figure out what the symbols mean. (I am assuming they used an old translation rather than hire a translator. Otherwise, how did this happen?)

Could be amusing, though. Suppose that one of the symbols means ... well, there's a whole range of amusing possibilities.

I get tired of people saying America was discovered by Christopher Columbus, Lief Ericson, St Brendan, or whoever. As far as I'm concerned,

1: Obviously the Native Indians got there before any named explorer

2: We have no way of knowing if the Indians got there first

so

3: Trying to say who discovered America is about as silly as trying to say who discovered Europe or Australia. Or trees.

4: Anyway the important thing is that when Columbus "discovered" America, it changed the whole world. The previous discoveries (except maybe by the Indians) are historically insignificant by comparison.

I'm also tired of people saying that Galileo got into trouble for saying that the earth went around the sun. He got away with that. He got into trouble when he suggested that the Catholic church did not know how to interpret scripture correctly. Was he oppressed? Yes. But its not a simple matter of faith vs. science. He had many supporters within the Catholic hierarchy.

Dear me, I could go on and on ... but enough about my troubles.

Happy whinging!

*******************************************************************

Forgot to mention in connection with Galileo. People say that the geocentric view of the solar system was comforting because earth was in the middle, and that Galileo was hated because he threatened that comforting view. Rubbish. Read Dante's Divine Comedy, and you will find that believers in the geocentric view considered earth the worst place to be (except hell) precisely because it was in the center! The center was believed to be as far as you could get from God, because heaven was the outermost ring.

[Don Esteban]

I reserve a special level of distain for people who don't know the history of their own country.

Example:- A Spanish colleague of mine the other day (just back from a trip to Marrakesh) who said that she was suprised by the influence Spanish cooking had had on Morrocan food.....Errr thing it might just be the other way round dear, or do we not know that most of Spain was conquered bu the Moors

[Noncommunist]

Though part of Morocco was conquered by the Spanish at the turn of the last century so they might have a bit of an influence.

[caravel]

Though part of Morocco was conquered by the Spanish at the turn of the last century so they might have a bit of an influence.

Indeed. It's most likely a crossover of influences rather than a simple case of one influencing the other.

[Brandy Blue]

I suspect that what was really annoying about the Senora was that she wasn't just ignorant. She was also complacently and self-congratulatory parochial. Clearly those stupid Arabs and Berbers (if she's heard of them) didn't know how to cook until the Spanish showed them.

To be fair, she's probably no worse than most. Everyone assumes that their culture is superior in every way until they learn otherwise. It is the default mode for the human race. That doesn't make it less annoying, of course.

Now and then parochialism can be amusing. I remember giving guests of mine a drink of blackcurant juice. I consider it to be an English drink because I learned about it from my English mother. My Jordanian guest was surprised and pleased that I had given him a Jordanian drink, and my American guest (who had been to Egypt) wondered where I had got an Egyptian drink from. I have since then been told that it is an Indian drink. Well, I don't know who started it, but I suspect that the British and their empire is the common thread.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

1: Obviously the Native Indians got there before any named explorer

2: We have no way of knowing if the Indians got there first

so

3: Trying to say who discovered America is about as silly as trying to say who discovered Europe or Australia. Or trees.

I would agree and disagree. On one hand, you are factually correct. On the other hand, we did discover the continent for Europe, and we did discover that (from our perspective) there were other people living there. If they had come to Europe, they would have likewise discovered us.

4: Anyway the important thing is that when Columbus "discovered" America, it changed the whole world. The previous discoveries (except maybe by the Indians) are historically insignificant by comparison.

Yes, indisputable.

[Brandy Blue]

I'm not sure that we disagree at all, Evil Maniac. The word "discover" can be used in different ways. I was using it in a particular context, i.e. to refer to ignorant people who assume that America could only be discovered once and then try to tell you who got there first. You use the word another way, and I quite agree that, in that sense, Columbus did discover America.

For that matter, I discovered the world. I just didn't discover it first.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I'm not sure that we disagree at all, Evil Maniac. The word "discover" can be used in different ways. I was using it in a particular context, i.e. to refer to ignorant people who assume that America could only be discovered once and then try to tell you who got there first. You use the word another way, and I quite agree that, in that sense, Columbus did discover America.

For that matter, I discovered the world. I just didn't discover it first.

[Brenus]

It is because History/history is just a representation for a country of itself.
It is a myth, a construction of identity.

E.g.: English, you didn’t win Waterloo. A coalition under the command of an English general did. Trafalgar didn’t prevent England to speak French because the Grande Armée was yet marching to Austerlitz… And Nelson destroyed “only” half the Franco-Spanish fleet… Advantage which was lost immediately after because the storm…

French: Joan of Arc was not a maid from Lorraine, and didn’t lead armies to victories… She was most probably the natural daughter of the Duc of Lorraine and was invented by the future King of France PR. La Hire and Gilles de Rais were in charge of the armies…

And we can find a lot of example like these…

It is less a lack of knowledge than a self-centre attitude, encouraged how our history is taught.
Who really realise when we study Egypt that it is in fact African’s history? Who just realise than when we speak of Alexander the Great, the Chinese had a full history of great kingdom builders?

[Don Esteban]

Though part of Morocco was conquered by the Spanish at the turn of the last century so they might have a bit of an influence.

Yes it was, but the type of food such as Almond based dishes (ALmendras - anything beginning with AL tens to be of arabic origin) was imported by the moors since most of the plant types were not indigneous to the Iberian peninsula before that.

Spanish cooking had very little influence on Morocco and the period of conquest was way shorter than the moorish occupation of Spain.


I'll give you a similar situation for the UK. Would you say English cooking has had a big influence on Indian cooking? Or more the reverse?

[Don Esteban]

I suspect that what was really annoying about the Senora was that she wasn't just ignorant. She was also complacently and self-congratulatory parochial. Clearly those stupid Arabs and Berbers (if she's heard of them) didn't know how to cook until the Spanish showed them.

Indeed. And this is a fairly common outlook here in Spain unfortunately.....

[Don Esteban]

It is because History/history is just a representation for a country of itself.
It is a myth, a construction of identity.

E.g.: English, you didn’t win Waterloo. A coalition under the command of an English general did. Trafalgar didn’t prevent England to speak French because the Grande Armée was yet marching to Austerlitz… And Nelson destroyed “only” half the Franco-Spanish fleet… Advantage which was lost immediately after because the storm…

And we didn't really destroy the Spanish armada, more got lucky that a strom brew up

See also:

Americans: You were not the saviours of Europe during the two world wars. Many countries were fighting way before you got involved and lost far more men. That said your help is appreciated, just stop telling us that you were the ONLY reason we one! The war did not run form 1942 - 45 but from 39 - 45 and arguably (if you are Czech) from before that when the first invasions took place.

French: You did not win the war in Algeria no matter what your government might try and tell you. They didn't choose to leave!!!

Spain: The British did not steal Gibralter, you gave it to them as one of the conditions after loosing a war. Also why is it ok for you to hold on to Ceuta and Melilla but not for the brits to hold Gibralter?


Think i'll stop now before I piss off every nationality

[CountArach]

It is less a lack of knowledge than a self-centre attitude, encouraged how our history is taught.
Who really realise when we study Egypt that it is in fact African’s history? Who just realise than when we speak of Alexander the Great, the Chinese had a full history of great kingdom builders?

That is so true. I hate when people think with Nationalism to re-write history in the image they find convenient. The Waterloo example you cited is so true - without Blucher's help there was no way Wellington would have won, at least not so convincingly.

[Incongruous]

It is because History/history is just a representation for a country of itself.
It is a myth, a construction of identity.

E.g.: English, you didn’t win Waterloo. A coalition under the command of an English general did. Trafalgar didn’t prevent England to speak French because the Grande Armée was yet marching to Austerlitz… And Nelson destroyed “only” half the Franco-Spanish fleet… Advantage which was lost immediately after because the storm…

French: Joan of Arc was not a maid from Lorraine, and didn’t lead armies to victories… She was most probably the natural daughter of the Duc of Lorraine and was invented by the future King of France PR. La Hire and Gilles de Rais were in charge of the armies…

And we can find a lot of example like these…

It is less a lack of knowledge than a self-centre attitude, encouraged how our history is is taught.
Who really realise when we study Egypt that it is in fact African’s history? Who just realise than when we speak of Alexander the Great, the Chinese had a full history of great kingdom builders?

I think you will have a hard time of it, proving to anyone that the British (not the English) claim sole responsability for the defeat of Nappy, in almost (a few exceptions) every book I have read about the battle due credit is given where it is merited by all sides.

As to Trafalgar, true the actual battle was only part of the full story, but it was the climax. France had been teetering on verge of naval collapse for some time before Trafalgar, even before the Nile due to the stupidity of the Revolutionaries and Napoleon, who somehow beleived that wars in Europe were still won on the continent alone. But the Nile and Trafalgar did illustrate the superiority of the British navy and its officer class once and for all over those of its contemporaries, this "advantage" was not lossed after the storm. It reaffirmed Britains naval supremecy and condemned the continental efforts (with the aid of the Russians) of the French to failure, if Russia and Britain could not be brought to heel, then it was always a lost cause.

On Egypt, well no not in the way most people undertsand Africa. Egyptian civilization belongs to that group of Eastern and latter Hellenistic civilizations rather than those of sub-sahharan Africa, Hellas, Asia minor and Mesopotamia were far more important to Egypt, in terms of both being influenced by and influencing the country, thus I find it hard to call it African history.

[Brenus]

Just watch History Channel, read or watch Sharp. History books don't count because they don't built the National Identity...
YAbout Egypt your answer prove my point.
And the othhers are Minor Asian history...

[caravel]

Indeed. And this is a fairly common outlook here in Spain unfortunately.....

Albahaca, Aceitunas, Aceite, Berenjena, Arroz. Lots of words for foodstuffs in Spanish have arabic origins, including such staples as basil, olives, aubergines and rice.

[Incongruous]

Just watch History Channel, read or watch Sharp. History books don't count because they don't built the National Identity...
YAbout Egypt your answer prove my point.
And the othhers are Minor Asian history...

I said books not history books, all are included and are you saying that because Egypt is in fact more akin to Levantine, Mosopotamian, Anatolian and Hellenistic cultures I am blinded by history?

Asian history? You mean Mesopotamia? Again a rather poor choice of words, I would put Mesopotamia in its own catagory, closer to Anatolian and Levantine culture that most of those populating what we term Asia.

Just as I would seperate southen, Hellenistic and Italian cultures from European ones of the same time.

[Brandy Blue]

Whatever you watch or read, there is a bias and that's how it is. I have been badly disappointed with the History Channel before.

On Egypt, I am (mostly) with Bopa. True, Egypt is geographically in Africa. To that extent Brenus is correct. But there is more to a culture than its geographical location. Ancient Egypt was not in significant contact with other African cultures AFAIK, with the important exception of Nubia and maybe Axum. Depending on the period you are thinking about, it is more culturally accurate to consider Egypt part of Mediterranian or Arab culture. So it is down to whether you think geography or culture is more important.

But however one looks at it, Bopa is not displaying an annoying lack of knowledge about Egypt. He is showing that there is more than one way of presenting and categorizing the truth. Brenus is not wrong about Egypt being in Africa, but he is wrong if he thinks that this is the only way to catagorize Egypt.

[rotorgun]

My beef is with average High School history textbooks. They are usually very biased towards the WASP viewpoint, and generally omit or gloss over anything negative that impacted United States history. At the same time, I dislike the half-hardhearted attempts at revision, that usually take their lead by whatever is politically correct, depending on whichever fashionable theory is in vogue at the time of their writing. Verily I say unto you, give us the facts please and let us draw our own conclusions.

[Brenus]

“Asian history? You mean Mesopotamia? Again a rather poor choice of words, I would put Mesopotamia in its own catagory, closer to Anatolian and Levantine culture that most of those populating what we term Asia.” That is geography, sorry.
I don’t choose theses are facts.
You choose so you manipulate and how can I say, in doing this, you “Europeeise”…

[Don Esteban]

Albahaca, Aceitunas, Aceite, Berenjena, Arroz. Lots of words for foodstuffs in Spanish have arabic origins, including such staples as basil, olives, aubergines and rice.

Exactly, and not just the words, usually the foodstuffs themselves (although not in the case of aceitunas or rice).


A huge general annoyance I have is the assumption that Europe has always been the most advanced culural area in the World - this is blatantly false at many points Asian or Arab culture has been more advanced.

[caravel]

Well rice originates in the far east, but was introduced to the Middle East and India before it came to Europe. So I would have thought that rice would have been introduced there by the Arabs?

[Don Esteban]

Well rice originates in the far east, but was introduced to the Middle East and India before it came to Europe. So I would have thought that rice would have been introduced there by the Arabs?

Could be. I'm not sure if rice was introduced to Spain and then to Italy and France or from Italy to Spain. I assumed it might have been a Roman importation like olives but equally it could be moorish. It is mainly found in Andalucia and Valencia so that WOULD fit in with your theory but it could just be that these are the only regions with the right conditions. Also Paella is flavoured with Azafran which WAS a moorish import so on balance you are probably correct.

[caravel]

Azafran (Saffron) use in Europe goes back at least to the pre christian era. I would say that it would have been introduced to Iberia by the Romans, and then perhaps reintroduced somewhat by the Moors.

[Don Esteban]

Azafran (Saffron) use in Europe goes back at least to the pre christian era. I would say that it would have been introduced to Iberia by the Romans, and then perhaps reintroduced somewhat by the Moors.

"In Europe, saffron cultivation declined steeply following the Roman Empire's fall. Saffron was reintroduced when the Islamic civilization "Al-Andalus" spread to Spain, France, and Italy"

Apparently we are both correct on this one

Although I have a problem with the Islamic civilization being called "Al-Andalus" as this was only the name of the province on the Iberian peninsula but that's a different argument....

[scipiosgoblin]

Think i'll stop now before I piss off every nationality

ROTFLMAO. Thank you for the dose of reality check. As an American, I always have to defend every idiotic position my country takes to all of my wife's relatives and friends. While I love my country and its ideals, I don't agree with everything it does.

Of course my wife has a different trial with Americans. She is South African. Convincing some of my relatives, friends and coworkers that she didn't grow up in a mud hut surrounded by lions and spear wielding natives is difficult.

I grew up on a farm ten miles outside a town of 1500 people. She grew up in Johannesburg, population 2 million or so. It's funny what preconceptions people have about other cultures.

SG

[Brenus]

“On Egypt, I am (mostly) with Bopa. True, Egypt is geographically in Africa. To that extent Brenus is correct. But there is more to a culture than its geographical location. Ancient Egypt was not in significant contact with other African cultures AFAIK, with the important exception of Nubia and maybe Axum. Depending on the period you are thinking about, it is more culturally accurate to consider Egypt part of Mediterranian or Arab culture. So it is down to whether you think geography or culture is more important.

But however one looks at it, Bopa is not displaying an annoying lack of knowledge about Egypt. He is showing that there is more than one way of presenting and categorizing the truth. Brenus is not wrong about Egypt being in Africa, but he is wrong if he thinks that this is the only way to catagorize Egypt.”

I don’t disagree with all that.
But the subject was the lack of knowledge in history. Samara, Obeid, Ras Amra (sp?) civilisations are part of our civilisation. However, no real effort is done to highlight their geographical belonging to our European child.
I do agree that during the Middle-Ages, and the Renaissance and a huge part of the Modern Ages the world was the Mediterranean sea…
But who really clearly teach that Phoenicians, Carthaginians are in fact Africans?
That is the key of this debate, not what you or I know.

The view ours societies have (especially on Africa) would change if this was clearly explained.
Do we have to celebrate the Empire was a debate on a Radio Station there. And the commentator to carry on the civilisation duty of England ands how English built bridges, schools and railways and so on.
Now, if he would have a simple idea of what was India before, perhaps he wouldn’t dare to say things like this…
He passed on the slaughters of population and various traps and tricks… This “democratisation process” was imposed by force and blood.
And that is a clear construction of Identity, a clear interpretation of history for a building of a clear conscience… Not a word on the rebellions and unrests…
We killed them but it was for their good…

Don’t worry; I had the same for the French. We invaded Vietnam to protect the Catholic Minorities from the evil Emperor of Annam (nowadays we say minorities rights for self determination), we invaded the Congo to free the slaves (human rights protection), and we hastely democratised countries (before the English got time to do it) and killed all the tyrants in others part of Africa in order to spread the Enlightenment…
The fact that few years after priest, soldiers and private companies were ruling through the heirs of these tyrants is not really important to be mentioned…
10 Africans died for each km of rail tracks (and 1 European.)
Forced labour was enforced, with full agreement of the French government…

I know that is a digression from the original debate.
However, the refusal to give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, to recognise the geographical reality about ancient civilisations is just a part of the all process.

[Brandy Blue]

Thanks for the clarification and sorry I missed the point, Brenus.

On a related point, I view geography history with some suspicion anyway. Sometimes we Americans equate Africa with black, and claim that Egypt and Carthage were black civilizations. (I am not suggesting that you think that. This is just another historical inaccuracy that some people believe.) Now I know that ancient Egyptian art includes pictures of blacks, so I suppose some of the Egyptians may have been black, but most of them look more brown than black to me. They probably had some black blood, I suppose, especially as they were once ruled by the Nubians and traded with them constantly. But to say they were all 100% black seems a bit unfair on their Coptic descendants. Why should they not get the credit for what their ancestors did just because they are not black?

I'm happy to say that Axum, Nubia, and Congo were black kingdoms, but no one has yet shown me the evidence for the claim that Hannibal, Cleopatra, and Socrates (who wasn't even an African) were black.

[Paradox]

Although I have a problem with the Islamic civilization being called "Al-Andalus" as this was only the name of the province on the Iberian peninsula but that's a different argument....

That's what we call it here in the middle east. It's commonly known as a genuine culture, not a province.