KH Advice?

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

I'm making the rounds with different factions, trying to get our of my bubble and "beat" the game w/ each faction. I started up a KH campaign and WOW is it different from Epiros or Rome.

That being said, what are your successful starting tactics when playing the KH? The Hoplitai Hoploi and even Spartan FM body guards suck compared to Phalangitai Deuteroi.

I tried two separate openings, here they are:

The first involves pulling the army from Krete and adding it with the forces in Athenai, then marching from the unseiged city (in HORRIBLE forested/mountainous terrain) to get rid of the Mak FL and his ridiculous force of impenetrable phalanxes. Of course, my units melt away like ice on a summer day without any phalanxes of my own to pin the enemy juggernaut. EPIC FAIL

The second tactic involves letting them seige Athenai hoping that I can conquer the city north of Sparte before the city falls, thereby making the Mak FL come down to relieve his other army. However, he doesn't do this and my smaller force (since the troops are still in Athenai) can't take the Mak city w/out getting obliterated themselves or Athenai falling.

[Mr.Man]

I take my army from crete to sparta and then with most of my army seige korinth and macedonia didnt do anything about it and they didnt even seige Athens i then go to take Chalkis and that starts me off.

[Tolg]

In my KH campaign I assemble most of my army in Athenai before Macedonia laid siege to it waiting for them to attack the town. When they did, my elites on the walls took care of them. Their phalangitai died as soon as they had climbed up the ladders. Almost no losses on my part (except of course the ones lost during the siege)

[Chirurgeon]

Option #3 Migrate to safety...

[A Very Super Market]

Phalangites are easy to kill, especially if you use your better hoplites against them. Use the levy hoplites to defend against cavalry and keep them close behind your better ones. Never attack the center of a phalanx, though you could use spartans general bodyguards to keep them busy for a bit while you circle around.

[Novellus]

In my experience, I had a terrible time starting out. But here's what I did to at least give myself a fighting chance:

Withdraw soldiers from Krete by boat. Leave the spy. Park the boat in the port of Athens. The soldiers on the ship will be unable to unload due to their movement points being depleted.

Take your strongest men from Sparta (both family members) and their armies and send them to the ship. Unload them directly on the docks. In this way, you're at least able to have your forces combined at one spot.

In Athens, recruit two units of Hippakonistai. A big weakneess infantry-based armies have is the lack of ability to chase down routing enemies. The last thing you want in the early game is a re-emergence of enemy phalangites.

Makedonia seems to be preoccupied with the Epeirotes. When they are far enough away, take your army and take over Chalkis. Also, with a small force, load the ships and sail for Mytilene. There is a very small garrison present on that island, which should be able to be taken by the end of the third turn. There are no defenses, and the AI does not seem to even bother doing anything to the island. Leaving a minimal garrison afterward doesn't cause many problems. I tend to leave behind a unit of Akonistai for garrison duty.

The Makedonians seem bent on taking over Athens. But for some reason, the AI tends to task them so that their entire force moves off to the forest outside of the city whenever you sally forth. Use this to your advantage. Park your units of slingers and your Kretan Archers on the walls. They'll cause tremendous casualties to the enemies below.

Very large hills surround Athens, and even the gate appears to be in a valley. But if you move a few units of Hoplitai Haploi, some Akonistai, and Hippakonistai (or better yet, and your Kretan Archers if they still have ammunition), the enemy often sends units to try to counter your new position. Your soldiers will become exhausted from scaling the hill, but so will the enemy. Use the ranged units to knock out targets below. Even cavalry under fire from above don't stand much of a chance. I've even exhausted the famed Hetairoi to the point where Hippakonistai can hack them to pieces in close-combat.

When the main Makedonian army is far enough away, you should also plan to take Korinthos as well.

NOTES ON FIGHTING PHALANXES:

The Makedonian phalanx is the bane of the Greek Hoplitai. But there are ways to defeat them. First off, keep your units in guard mode when charging. Usually this is ill-advised. But often the phalangites seem to change the focus on where they're attacking. When their sarissae are pointed in the wrong direction so that you have a massive flank to attack, charge it, then when engaged, take the units out of guard-mode. This causes your hoplitai to spread out and it begins to hack the enemy phalanx from the inside out. Usually when this happens, the enemy routes. Even elites become panicked when there are enemy hoplitai staring at them within their own ranks.

Another tactic I enjoy is using the Akonistai to attack the rears of phalanxes. Their javelins cause high casualties when they attack from the rear, and then when they charge, the massive 240-unit usually panics the enemy to the point that they'll run away.

Phalanxes are tough, but fortunately, they're not as invincible as they seem. Survive long enough and you'll have phalangites of your own, along with cavalry to do the damage. Think how ironic it would be if the Makedonian "hammer and anvil" tactics were used against them by the Hellenes?

Good luck! Hope this helps!

[Ludens]

When I am playing the KH, I do not engage phalangite-armies lightly, yet I don't have much trouble defeating them. My guess is you are either not using your hoplites correctly or playing at H or VH battle difficulty. Yes, you cannot defeat levy phalanxes head-on, but that's what phalanxes are made for. Instead, you should use their weaknesses by attacking them from multiple sides. This can be a bit tricky when you are outnumbered, so the first priority is to lure their supporting troops away and defeat those. This is generally easy since the A.I. is bad at maintaining a line and phalanxes regularly lag behind. Then, once your troops have been reformed and regained some stamina you should pin the phalanxes with something sturdy yet expendable (hoplites haploi are excellent for this job), and then assault them from the other side. It also helps when you engage them downslope: there is some kind of bug that makes them phalanxes effective when their opponents are not at equal height.

[the man with no name]

Option #3 Migrate to safety...

I second that. I tried it and it worked beautifully.

Edit: Also since the Koinon have 2 or 3 (i can't remember) famous buildings, demolish them for big $$$$$$$$$$. This should give you enough to maintain your army without going into debt (depending on where you migrate to). It should also be enough to build a regional temp. government, and train a couple of units (again depending on where you go to.)

[Novellus]

I second that. I tried it and it worked beautifully.

Edit: Also since the Koinon have 2 or 3 (i can't remember) famous buildings, demolish them for big $$$$$$$$$$. This should give you enough to maintain your army without going into debt (depending on where you migrate to). It should also be enough to build a regional temp. government, and train a couple of units (again depending on where you go to.)

Demolish the Colossus AND the Acropolis? Are you mad? No Greek would stand for that! It's blasphemy!

May your shade wander the banks of the river Styx for a thousand years, and then burn in the blackest pits of Tartarus!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Just kidding. It's worked for others who did that.

[Celtic_Punk]

SPARTANS DO NOT SUCK! you just blow at using them. You need to adopt hitsquad tactics. Accept the fact that your shorter spears mean casualties on the initial engagement. until you adopt better hoplites, you will need to outmanouver the makedonnes to acheive victory. Avoid large confrontations.

when engaging in a field use your skirmishers as a screening force, archers behind your line (get your hands on kretans. they kick ass) your Hoplites are your mainforce. Weaker hoplites in teh centre. Your FM's should be on the flanks. either use your best (usually a smaller hoplite unit with experience) hoplites ,or if your best are on the flanks - use your 2nd best- in a square formation about 10-20m behind your flanks. when the lines engage, doublequick march them around then spread em out so that they are about 3 men deep and envelop the phalanx. use guard mode for your main battle line. Your hitsquads should have it off. Later on you might want to send a force to massalia. Massalia is a crucial greek town. Only because of its incredible unit - Massalian Hoplites. These men are essential for your hitsquad tactics. Samnite's with the swords and shields will also do. but Massalians are much more versatile.
S S S S S

FM---------------------FM
|=| |=|
SL A A A A SL

Legend
S = Skirmishers
FM = FM
|=| = Hit squad
A = Archers
SL = Slingers



About Cavalry..... Hippies are cannon fodder. They are absolute rubbish! use them as a delaying force, or as a scouting force. they have no real use in combat. except when you have the upper hand and you wish to push forth a crumbling line. if you are losing the battle, throw em in as a last ditch effort and.... you'll lose more men.... basically they are outclassed by all other forms of light-medium cavalry and most forms of infantry. I've had units of them devastated by skirmishers in melee... they have little charging capability. and they fail at being a fast hit squad. use them to delay a charge, swarm an engaged enemy, or act as a rear guard as your army retreats. You will want to just avoid recruiting cavalry till you can get a proper cavalry force. Most of your army is heavy infantry with dirty spears in close formation. Your only real worry is Macedonian family members... and well.. Hippies are so bad they usually run like Frenchmen before engaging them.

Later on....

Now that you've got proper infantry you want to use Classical Hoplites and Spartans. These are your main force. I divide my army into two. Athenian empire and Spartans. My all spartan armies are unstoppable. With 2 makedonian Phalangites as a core, 2-4 Spartans on each side, massalian hoplite hitsquads, and slingers and cretan archers supporting, nothing can defeat you. flanking cavalry as still dangerous, and may take careful and devious manouvering in the thick of the fight to save the rear. I suggest you find a suitable answer to your lack of medium cavalry. Mercs are way too expensive to use on a regular basis. the Greek noble cavalry is good. But is no match for the Macedonians. Destroy Macedon at all costs! Do not get sentimental and stop. as soon as you can field a proper professional army, disband your levies and attack Pella! either push them out of the hellas or destroy them if they have nothing north of pella. Rome can be a powerful ally against the Epirotes and Carthage. Securing all of Greece and Yugoslavia is paramount. the money you will get from this will fund expeditions. This is my favourite part of the KH.


Expeditions:
There are many Greek polis scattered around the med. Massalia and Syracuse shall be your first targets.

Syracuse can easily be taken by 4 Spartan Hoplites and a competent spartan leader (whether he has a spartan body guard or not.) Massalia might be tougher, especailly if you are allied with Rome. Massalia is all important though. They have invaluable troops and are poised to have lots and lots of trade via sea routes. Once these 2 are secure you should make sure you keep a strong and powerful garrison. I suggest 1-2 spartan hoplites to lead the garrison. you can stop any attack in the streets with these things (as long as they arent elephants... i haven't fought elephants as the KH yet.) Expeditions are costly sometimes, but depending on your target (antioch, Alexandria, ROME, CARTHAGE) you stand to make a prettttty penny back. I personally liked not sacking antioch and using it as a base to attack the selukids on their hometurf. Expansion from the north of the Hella's I do not recommend. the KH seem to excell at Amphibious assaults. Their position dictates that you can expand west or east or south easily. Shipping troops to one side of the med is not such a large deal. Securing Italy should be a main priority. But for a challenge i recommend leaving the romans for a bit. Especially if you forged an alliance. the Romans can be a good ally... Keep them at a distance though and keep them occupied with an enemy. Carthage is a good common foe, they also put a good fight at sea and land.


What you chose to do from there is ultimately up to you. There are a few things to keep in mind that are a must however.


1- Secure Crete immediately.
2- Disband the Navy
3- Ship your army back to the mainland
4- Secure Corinith
5- Reinforce Athens
6- Push the Makedonnes back through Thermoplaye.( Chalkis must fall!)
7- Hold Thermoplyae till you are out of debt.
8- Get Romano-friendly (for the time being... Gift them extra money sometimes, buy their map info for a grand, and keep your diplomat at rome's gate! They will return in due kindness, and reward your faith in them)
9- Avoid conflict with Pyhrus till you've dealt with the Makedonnes.
10-Leave Thermon!!!!!!!!!! If you attack them while they are independent your belligerence in the eyes of the other Hellenes will go up, you will find it hard to talk diplomacy and you will have both the Epirots and the Makedons coming down on you. Do not enter Pyhrus's war with Rome till Makedon is either destroyed, or suppressed.
11- Always defend, even on the attack! goad the fools into attacking you! their Phalanx will fall apart on the move, and yours will hold! Allowing you swift and chaotic victory!
12- While playing think like a Spartan, and you will win like a Spartan. or die like a Spartan.
12a) My Spartan Army Composition:

General must be Spartan and a Lieutenant of whomever he'd like
5-8 Spartan Hoplites.
2-3 Phalangites
2 Slingers
2 Cretan Archers
1-2 Peltasts or anyhting that hucks large point-ed sticks lol
2-4 Hitsquads (Massalian Hoplites, Celtic Mercs, Dacian Falxmen[BLOODY AMAZING!] anything with long sharpened bits of steel with a handle really.)

12b)Athenian Army Composition
General can be anyone who'd be voted by Athen's to lead their army. Lieutenant of his choice.
5 Classical Hoplites
4 Phalangites
2 Slingers
2 Archers
2 Hitsquads
2-4 Cavalry units (I suggest the heaviest thing you can find)
1-2 Point-ed stick throwers.





I hoped this helped...