The right of self-determination

[Kralizec]

You realize this put every country in the western hemisphere in a very precarious position.

Who cares about them?

The only regions that come to mind are Quebec in Canada (where an independence was rejected in a referendum), parts of the southern USA with lots of latinos (of wich I recall you yourself have said that most of it is blown out of proportion) and Santa Cruz in Bolivia (whose rich white population don't want to be governed by a Chavez clone of native extraction)

Oh yeah, there's also the Netherlands Antilles - who could become independent if they wanted it, but they'd be completely hopeless as such and know it.

[Strike For The South]

Who cares about them?

The only regions that come to mind are Quebec in Canada (where an independence was rejected in a referendum), parts of the southern USA with lots of latinos (of wich I recall you yourself have said that most of it is blown out of proportion) and Santa Cruz in Bolivia (whose rich white population don't want to be governed by a Chavez clone of native extraction)

Oh yeah, there's also the Netherlands Antilles - who could become independent if they wanted it, but they'd be completely hopeless as such and know it.

The only reason the mindboggling number of ethnic groups hasn't torn America apart is because we shun determination and work for the ideal of being "American"

If Self determination was the norm than the outcome would not be the same.

A nation state allows people not to be so divided along ethnic or religious lines and instead invest themselves in a republic which rewards merit.

[rotorgun]

I don't think it could have been said any better than in the words of the Preamble of the Declaration of Independence.

IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness....

I am in favor of the right of self-determination, although I would rather see it achieved through non-violent civil disobedience, such as that which Gandhi espoused. It is unfortunate that violence is sometimes the only way to accomplish the goal. That is a path that is difficult to return from once trodden upon. Freedom is a precious commodity, often bought by the blood of patriots.

[KukriKhan]

I don't think it could have been said any better than in the words of the Preamble of the Declaration of Independence.



I am in favor of the right of self-determination, although I would rather see it achieved through non-violent civil disobedience, such as that which Gandhi espoused. It is unfortunate that violence is sometimes the only way to accomplish the goal. That is a path that is difficult to return from once trodden upon. Freedom is a precious commodity, often bought by the blood of patriots.

All true. We must remember that later in the US DoI, they detailed why independence (or self-determination) was sought, acknowledging with its final words:

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

...that they would likely lose everything, yet would defend their assertion.

Then fought a miserable, prolonged war to defend this land they dared call 'their's'. Any group not willing or able to do the same, gets low marks.

I'm all for the Ghandi approach: "You can kill me today, my brother tomorrow, my millions of countrymen the next day, and millions after that. Then you'll get tired (or shamed, or humbled, or broke) and leave." <----(my interpretation)

One-sided non-violence only works with a seemingly unlimited amount of manpower.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

One-sided non-violence only works with a seemingly unlimited amount of manpower.

I'd replace "manpower" with "willpower."

Rotorgun:

Nice to see you adding to our backroom again! Though it is NOT at all surprising to see you doing so with such class.

[PowerWizard]

Thank you all for your responses.

So, what if my family wants to declare our house an independent nation? Or maybe my town, or county, or state? At what point does this "right" apply?

Founding micronations is apparently the new trend of the 20th century, just take a look at this list.

If you declare your house independent, and another state somehow de facto acknowledges it (like in the case of Sealand), you become an independent state (although you still won't be invited to the UN).

Which leads back to the original problem posted in the OP. If you guys agree that a majority of people or minorities can gain independence, that's fine, but it only works if they are de facto acknowledged, because you can see from the clauses I cited in the OP, that the right of self-determination is unclearly determined (worded). This is due to the compromise by the parties of the Helsinki Final Act (some of them supported full independence, some of them were strongly against it).

Okay, now for a more detailed response...

I feel that if the majority of people in a certain region want independence, they should get it. That goes for Kosovo, Montenegro, Abchazia, North-Ossetia,Chechnya and so on. In many cases such regions are not viable as independent countries, but they'll just have to face the consequenses of their own choices

I'd apply the same principle to minorities who live in different countries, like the Kurds. If Iraq where to fall apart and there'd be an independent Kurdish state in the north of it, and the majority of Kurds in Turkey is stupid enough to want to join them, I say let them.

You realize this put every country in the western hemisphere in a very precarious position.

Who cares about them?

Well, they care about their own territorial integrity, so applying this principle is not so easy, especially when there are hostile ethnic groups living in the same country. In your scenario, Iraq falls apart, an independent Kurdistan is established and the Turkish Kurds join. I don't think Turkey would ever agree to this situation. And given that Turkey is a NATO country, i don't think some of the NATO countries (prominently the USA) would be happy too, after all, a reliable ally with a huge army in the region is more important to them, than some small country (take the example of the South-Ossetian war, where NATO was reluctant to intervene).

On topic: I think the documents cited go too far in 'granting' self-determination. In my personal opinion, you are only 'entitled' to property which you can govern/control and defend..

The subjects of these documents are peoples, not individuals.

Group a1, currently residing in Country A, wants independence, and asks Country A for it, peacefully. If Country A sez OK, fine. If Country A sez "No", then we have a problem. If Group a1 can take, hold, control and defend their area, I would recognize them as separate...

But if Group a1 just wants local control, and to no longer pay tribute to Country A while receiving services (including defense) from Country A, I say Group a1's claim is bogus.

Just imho.

Schematically this is true, but in the real world, this isn't so simple. First off, not just Country A, but the majority of the UN countries (or at least all the neighbors and the major world powers) have to acknowledge the new state in order to gain sovereign status in international relations.

Secondly, if group a1 can take hold, control and defend this area, it still doesn't mean they have the right to an own government and own state. What if the Basque people would start an independence war to separate from Spain and win? I can hardly imagine that the rest of the European states would hurry to acknowledge the independent Basque state, let alone Spain.

[Brenus]

“The only regions that come to mind are Quebec in Canada (where an independence was rejected in a referendum), parts of the southern USA with lots of latinos (of which I recall you yourself have said that most of it is blown out of proportion) and Santa Cruz in Bolivia”
Er, and Serbs in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo, Hungary and Montenegro which were denied to this right by the same who gave this right to Croats, Bosnians and Kosovar. Bulgarian in Macedonia, Albanian in Greece, Dutch and French in Belgium, Catalan (Corsican voted against independence few years ago…).
Sorry I have to go to work, so I can’t enumerate the list… And that is just for Europe…
BORDERS ARE FENCES: BREAK THEM, DON’T BUILT NEW…

[Kralizec]

Ah, but none of those are in the western hemisphere

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

BORDERS ARE FENCES: BREAK THEM, DON’T BUILT NEW…

Good fences make for good neighbours...

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

The subjects of these documents are peoples, not individuals.

But individuals choose how to identify themselves - and "peoples" is an imprecise term.

[Husar]

Good fences make for good neighbours...

Then prison must be Utopia.