The right of self-determination

[PowerWizard]

Thank you all for your responses.

So, what if my family wants to declare our house an independent nation? Or maybe my town, or county, or state? At what point does this "right" apply?

Founding micronations is apparently the new trend of the 20th century, just take a look at this list.

If you declare your house independent, and another state somehow de facto acknowledges it (like in the case of Sealand), you become an independent state (although you still won't be invited to the UN).

Which leads back to the original problem posted in the OP. If you guys agree that a majority of people or minorities can gain independence, that's fine, but it only works if they are de facto acknowledged, because you can see from the clauses I cited in the OP, that the right of self-determination is unclearly determined (worded). This is due to the compromise by the parties of the Helsinki Final Act (some of them supported full independence, some of them were strongly against it).

Okay, now for a more detailed response...

I feel that if the majority of people in a certain region want independence, they should get it. That goes for Kosovo, Montenegro, Abchazia, North-Ossetia,Chechnya and so on. In many cases such regions are not viable as independent countries, but they'll just have to face the consequenses of their own choices

I'd apply the same principle to minorities who live in different countries, like the Kurds. If Iraq where to fall apart and there'd be an independent Kurdish state in the north of it, and the majority of Kurds in Turkey is stupid enough to want to join them, I say let them.

You realize this put every country in the western hemisphere in a very precarious position.

Who cares about them?

Well, they care about their own territorial integrity, so applying this principle is not so easy, especially when there are hostile ethnic groups living in the same country. In your scenario, Iraq falls apart, an independent Kurdistan is established and the Turkish Kurds join. I don't think Turkey would ever agree to this situation. And given that Turkey is a NATO country, i don't think some of the NATO countries (prominently the USA) would be happy too, after all, a reliable ally with a huge army in the region is more important to them, than some small country (take the example of the South-Ossetian war, where NATO was reluctant to intervene).

On topic: I think the documents cited go too far in 'granting' self-determination. In my personal opinion, you are only 'entitled' to property which you can govern/control and defend..

The subjects of these documents are peoples, not individuals.

Group a1, currently residing in Country A, wants independence, and asks Country A for it, peacefully. If Country A sez OK, fine. If Country A sez "No", then we have a problem. If Group a1 can take, hold, control and defend their area, I would recognize them as separate...

But if Group a1 just wants local control, and to no longer pay tribute to Country A while receiving services (including defense) from Country A, I say Group a1's claim is bogus.

Just imho.

Schematically this is true, but in the real world, this isn't so simple. First off, not just Country A, but the majority of the UN countries (or at least all the neighbors and the major world powers) have to acknowledge the new state in order to gain sovereign status in international relations.

Secondly, if group a1 can take hold, control and defend this area, it still doesn't mean they have the right to an own government and own state. What if the Basque people would start an independence war to separate from Spain and win? I can hardly imagine that the rest of the European states would hurry to acknowledge the independent Basque state, let alone Spain.

[Brenus]

“The only regions that come to mind are Quebec in Canada (where an independence was rejected in a referendum), parts of the southern USA with lots of latinos (of which I recall you yourself have said that most of it is blown out of proportion) and Santa Cruz in Bolivia”
Er, and Serbs in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo, Hungary and Montenegro which were denied to this right by the same who gave this right to Croats, Bosnians and Kosovar. Bulgarian in Macedonia, Albanian in Greece, Dutch and French in Belgium, Catalan (Corsican voted against independence few years ago…).
Sorry I have to go to work, so I can’t enumerate the list… And that is just for Europe…
BORDERS ARE FENCES: BREAK THEM, DON’T BUILT NEW…

[Kralizec]

Ah, but none of those are in the western hemisphere

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

BORDERS ARE FENCES: BREAK THEM, DON’T BUILT NEW…

Good fences make for good neighbours...

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

The subjects of these documents are peoples, not individuals.

But individuals choose how to identify themselves - and "peoples" is an imprecise term.

[PowerWizard]

But individuals choose how to identify themselves - and "peoples" is an imprecise term.

That's what is in the UN Charter.

[Pannonian]

That's what is in the UN Charter.

The roots of the right to self-determination should probably be traced back to Woodrow Wilson's ideals after WW1, while the reason for their compromise should probably be traced back to Britain's and France's reading of such at Versailles, and later the Cold War. Strong powers will try to keep their territories together, unless a stronger power intervenes to break it up. Self-determination, or their support of such, would often be but a disguised way of getting these newly independent nations under their hegemony instead, as a protectorate. Britain and France were at it after WW1. The US and USSR were at it after WW2. The US, EU, Russia, and probably anyone else who can manage it are still at it now.

[Subotan]

Nationalism is brutish and despicable. It's not something you can chose, and it's therefore not something you should be proud off, certainly not enough to be prepared to declare war to seperate from another state. Unless that minority is actively being repressed by a majority, in which case since the oppressors aren't playing by the rules, it may be nessecary for you to fight back. But of course, since the root of any such conflict would be nationalism, then it all comes back to the central fact that nationalism sowes only death and destruction.

[Husar]

Good fences make for good neighbours...

Then prison must be Utopia.