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Thread: Chavez wins referendum

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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Chavez wins referendum

    Well, we haven't had a Chavez thread in a while.

    Chavez wins referendum to remove term limits
    Feb. 16 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez scored a victory in his drive to stay in power as voters scrapped constitutional term limits that would have forced him from office in 2013.

    The amendment carried with 54.4 percent of the vote to 45.6 percent, according to preliminary results, said Tibisay Lucena, president of the National Electoral Council, in comments carried on state television. The referendum marked the second time in 14 months that Chavez sought to remove the constitutional bar that kept him from seeking unlimited re-election.
    Chavez declares this a mandate for Socialism
    "Those who voted "yes" today voted for socialism, for revolution," Chavez thundered to thousands of ecstatic supporters jamming the streets around the presidential palace. Fireworks lit up the Caracas skyline, and one man walked though the crowd carrying a painting of Chavez that read: "Forever."
    [...]
    The constitutional overhaul allows all public officials to run for re-election as many times as they want, removing barriers to a Chavez candidacy in the next presidential elections in 2012 and beyond.
    Now will people accept that the people of Venezuela really do love him?
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

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    Post Re: Chavez wins referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    Now will people accept that the people of Venezuela really do love him?

    The US media will hardly accept it, but I'm sure the rest of the international community will accept it. It was a democratic election, with no major flaws reported, Chavez could only gain 54 % support and the bulk of the domestic media was against him. He is the legitimate leader of Venezuela.
    Last edited by PowerWizard; 02-16-2009 at 10:44.
    Life is full of surprises and you never know what you're going to get until you get it; always expect the unexpected.

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post

    Now will people accept that the people of Venezuela really do love him?
    I'll accept a simple majority voted to remove term limits for him.

    But even socialists should accept we have term limits for a reason - to prevent one single man from gaining too much power, from establishing a cult of personality.

    There's no excuse for getting rid of the limits - I'm sure someone else could continue down his socialist path. But importantly for Chavez, that man wouldn't be him.

    CR
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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    I'll accept a simple majority voted to remove term limits for him.

    But even socialists should accept we have term limits for a reason - to prevent one single man from gaining too much power, from establishing a cult of personality.
    There are no term limits down here and things work fine - that's what elections are for. People are smart enough to realise when someone is getting too big for their boots and is starting to enjoy their position a little *too* much. There doesn't need to be a Constitution to tell them this. I forsee Chavez losing an election one day for this reason - and I wouldn't be surprised if he comes back with the military and the working class.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    There's no excuse for getting rid of the limits - I'm sure someone else could continue down his socialist path. But importantly for Chavez, that man wouldn't be him.
    Alright that is a valid argument.
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

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    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    Hey, it worked for Michael Bloomberg so why not? Some people are just indespensible and we certainly can't be expected to live without them.
    Last edited by Hosakawa Tito; 02-16-2009 at 12:14. Reason: spelling
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." *Jim Elliot*

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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito View Post
    Hey, it worked for Michael Bloomberg so why not?
    Well yeah, but Chavez sought the vote directly from the people, rather than just a council.
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

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    Spirit King Senior Member seireikhaan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    "Love" him? That I would doubt. Approve of his governance? Seems so.
    It is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles. Then, the victory is yours. It cannot be taken from you, not by angels or by demons, heaven or hell.

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    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    I'll give him this: he's achieving his socialist state via the ballot box, not the AK47, and doing it over 20 years, not overnight.

    It wouldn't work here; we don't trust our leaders that much, or for that long. But apparently it works fine in Caracas. He's 54, and has plans through age 64. Will he stick around 10 years after that - after his perceived mandate has been achieved?
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    This referendum -- essentially a referendum on Chavez himself -- passed with 54% of the vote. That's a full point better than Obama did.

    I loathe strong-man socialism more than I mislike socialism itself. Chavez is strong-man socialism AND a bag of chips.

    To the devil his due, however. Chavez has not used smoke and mirrors, has not resorted to military thuggery, and his use of a foreign "enemy" as a foil for rallying support is far less baseless than many of the claims made by dictators the world over. The USA really HAS tried to bust on him quite a bit.

    In the long run, I believe he will do more harm than good for Venezuela -- but it is THEIR decision, not mine to make.

    Half a century from now, however, when I am a doddering old fool complaining about world affairs (I'm only middle aged so far), someone will write some compelling history about New World Socialism and Chavez -- and Castro will warrant only a chapter and Guevera little more than a footnote.
    Last edited by Seamus Fermanagh; 02-16-2009 at 17:42.
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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    I pity Venezuela.

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    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    So what does this say about Bush's mandate in 2004? Chavez did only 4 points better...

    Did we love Bush then, or is 54% the cutoff?

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good View Post
    So what does this say about Bush's mandate in 2004? Chavez did only 4 points better...

    Did we love Bush then, or is 54% the cutoff?
    Love only applies when you agree with the man. Otherwise he wants to genocide infants.
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    Chavez is a good propagandist, as the Economist points out.
    He has turned almost the whole of the state bureaucracy, including the armed forces and the state oil company, into an election machine. The government-dominated electoral authority has said nothing. Pro-government rallies teem with public-sector workers in red shirts and baseball caps bearing the logos of government departments. “Everyone’s here voluntarily,” insists Clevis Bozo, who works in the internal audit office of Petróleos de Venezuela (PDVSA), the oil company. “It’s the will of the people.”
    He puts the entirety of his government to work influencing voters while he works to muzzle opposition voices. It's not surprising that he won- it's surprising that he didn't win by more.

    From the New York Times:
    The government has attacked unsympathetic unions, harassed human rights advocates and clamped down on free speech. In a scathing report released in Caracas last year, Human Rights Watch said Mr. Chávez’s policies “have degraded the country’s democracy.” Mr. Chávez responded by sending armed security agents to abduct two Human Rights Watch representatives from their hotel and put them on a plane to São Paulo, Brazil.
    He and his supporters are increasingly resorting to intimidation. Mobs have occupied the municipal government headquarters in Caracas, which is run by the opposition, and lobbed tear gas canisters at the home of a TV executive who has been critical of the government and others. The leader of one hard-core group is threatening “war” if Mr. Chávez loses, according to news reports.
    Sorry, but I don't regard that as a "free and fair" vote.
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    Spirit King Senior Member seireikhaan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    From the New York Times:Sorry, but I don't regard that as a "free and fair" vote.
    Well, we know that can't be true, look at the source.
    It is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles. Then, the victory is yours. It cannot be taken from you, not by angels or by demons, heaven or hell.

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by seireikhaan View Post
    Well, we know that can't be true, look at the source.
    Hey, I could've found different sources, but I thought the socialist Chavez apologists would give most weight to the NYT. Although, convincing them that Chavez is anything short of a saint is a challenge regardless of the source.
    Last edited by Xiahou; 02-16-2009 at 21:15.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    Now will people accept that the people of Venezuela really do love him?
    Have you been missing a few mass demonstrations that were violently silenced after a tv-network critical of Chavez was taken of the air?

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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    Chavez has pretty much the same problem as Putin - his succes is built on high oil prices. He'll be able to run again, but that doesn't mean he'll be elected.
    Last edited by Kralizec; 02-16-2009 at 21:46.

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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    From the New York Times:Sorry, but I don't regard that as a "free and fair" vote.
    You are mistaking his campaign tactics for the tactics of some of his more radical supporters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony
    Have you been missing a few mass demonstrations that were violently silenced after a tv-network critical of Chavez was taken of the air
    Nope, I know the country is sharply divided.
    Last edited by CountArach; 02-16-2009 at 23:06.
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    You are mistaking his campaign tactics for the tactics of some of his more radical supporters.
    I'm trying to phrase a response without violating Godwin's Law...

    Regardless, that is like saying that the SA wasn't part of Hitler's campaign tactics, it was simply the tactics of his more radical supporters. And we all know that isn't true, it was entirely part of the "campaign" tactics.

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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    If the people of Venezuela want a dictator, they got one. I just hope they don't have any regrets.



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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Kush View Post
    If the people of Venezuela want a dictator, they got one. I just hope they don't have any regrets.
    Not at all. They still have the ability to not vote for him - hence he is not a Dictator. He becomes a Dictator at the point where he ignores the election results.
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    Not at all. They still have the ability to not vote for him - hence he is not a Dictator. He becomes a Dictator at the point where he ignores the election results.
    I remember, vaguely, hearing about him trying to do that in the last election, but the army generals said they would step in if he did.

    I could be wrong though, and am too lazy to dig out a link.


    Anyways, you are correct that he is currently not a dictator. However, if he consolidates enough power, that could easily happen in a country such as Venezuela.



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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    Chavez is a good propagandist, as the Economist points out.

    He puts the entirety of his government to work influencing voters while he works to muzzle opposition voices. It's not surprising that he won- it's surprising that he didn't win by more.
    Well, I learned that corporate identity is an idea from the USA.


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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    You are mistaking his campaign tactics for the tactics of some of his more radical supporters.
    Your being absurd. When local government headquarters, held by opposition parties were taken over by pro-Chavez mobs, what did he do about it? Were these "radicals" treated like the criminals that they are by Chavez?

    And how would you like to explain away the arresting and deportation of critical HRW observers?

    And that's not even touching on his government run and funded propaganda structure he has set up for himself. Suppression of opposition and one-sided cheerleading from the government and government owned industries. How does any of that sound free and fair to you?
    Last edited by Xiahou; 02-17-2009 at 02:48.
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    Honorary Argentinian Senior Member Gyroball Champion, Karts Champion Caius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    Now will people accept that the people of Venezuela really do love him?
    When you have to vote with a gun in your head, I'm sure that the people will love him.




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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    Your being absurd. When local government headquarters, held by opposition parties were taken over by pro-Chavez mobs, what did he do about it? Were these "radicals" treated like the criminals that they are by Chavez?
    Chazvez orders police crackdown
    "Chavez has condemned the attacks and ordered police to crack down. No suspects have been arrested."
    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    And how would you like to explain away the arresting and deportation of critical HRW observers?
    That was a mistake and I didn't comment on it because I already said it was reprehensible when he did it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    And that's not even touching on his government run and funded propaganda structure he has set up for himself. Suppression of opposition and one-sided cheerleading from the government and government owned industries. How does any of that sound free and fair to you?
    Most of the media is anti-Chavez - that indeed sounds like a free and fair media. And of course the government is cheerleading him - HIS PARTY CONTROLS THE GOVERNMENT.
    Quote Originally Posted by Caius View Post
    When you have to vote with a gun in your head, I'm sure that the people will love him.
    What evidence is there of people being intimidated into voting one way or the other by the government?
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

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    Amphibious Trebuchet Salesman Member Whacker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    For argument's sake, does anyone have any real data or good sources on corruption in the voting process in Venezuela? If the people did truly vote for this, then I pity them.

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    "Chavez has condemned the attacks and ordered police to crack down. No suspects have been arrested."
    No arrests, huh?
    Though the ruling party, the United Socialist Party of Venezuela, has denounced such actions, the government has done very little to stop them. The government itself has been targeting student leaders, arresting dozens on vague charges. Accusations of terrorism have been made, and phones have been tapped. In one instance, a student leader’s phone conversation was taped and then aired on Venezuelan radio.
    link

    The common pattern seems to be Chavez supporters riot, attack and otherwise intimidate opponents. Chavez makes a token comment that he doesn't support what they're doing- and then he has more of his opponents arrested- charged with the same things that his supporters do while he turns a blind eye.
    Most of the media is anti-Chavez - that indeed sounds like a free and fair media. And of course the government is cheerleading him - HIS PARTY CONTROLS THE GOVERNMENT.
    Right. I'm sure had Bush made millions of Federal employees go out and do legwork for the McCain campaign, you would've brushed that off as well, right? I mean, Bush controlled the government, so its ok. While he was at it, he could've used the FCC to force broadcasters to run wall-to-wall campaign ads too. These are all hallmarks of fair elections.
    Last edited by Xiahou; 02-17-2009 at 04:45.
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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    No arrests, huh?
    Though the ruling party, the United Socialist Party of Venezuela, has denounced such actions, the government has done very little to stop them. The government itself has been targeting student leaders, arresting dozens on vague charges. Accusations of terrorism have been made, and phones have been tapped. In one instance, a student leader’s phone conversation was taped and then aired on Venezuelan radio.
    link

    The common pattern seems to be Chavez supporters riot, attack and otherwise intimidate opponents. Chavez makes a token comment that he doesn't support what they're doing- and then he has more of his opponents arrested- charged with the same things that his supporters do while he turns a blind eye.
    That applies to any number of governments. Its not the right thing to do at all - and I don't see how it could be defended, but that is the nature of power. And for the record:
    http://cpj.org/2009/02/pro-governmen...n-media-ou.php
    In an interview published on Friday, the leader of the Venezuelan pro-government group La Piedrita took responsibility for a series of attacks against local journalists and media outlets, and threatened to attack the 24-hours news channel Globovisión and RCTV Director Marcel Granier. The Committee to Protect Journalists called today on Venezuelan authorities to investigate the allegations and to immediately bring those responsible for the attacks to justice.

    In its February 6 edition, the Venezuelan weekly Quinto Día published an extended interview with Valentín Santana, leader of La Piedrita, detailing the pro-government group's political stand and its past actions. In the interview, Santana threatened to "take up arms" against Granier and Globovisión, accusing them of promoting violence against Venezuelan Pesident Hugo Chávez.

    Granier issued a statement the same day calling on local authorities to detain Santana. Over the weekend, Chávez condemned Santana's declarations and said La Piedrita's actions could be defined as "terrorism," according to Venezuelan news reports. According to El Universal, Chávez ordered Santana's detention on Sunday; he has not yet been detained.
    That seems like far more than a token comment to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    Right. I'm sure had Bush made millions of Federal employees go out and do legwork for the McCain campaign, you would've brushed that off as well, right? I mean, Bush controlled the government, so its ok. While he was at it, he could've used the FCC to force broadcasters to run wall-to-wall campaign ads too. These are all hallmarks of fair elections.
    Show me where anyone was forced to campaign for Chavez.
    Last edited by CountArach; 02-17-2009 at 05:30.
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

  30. #30
    Senior Member Senior Member naut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez wins referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    Chavez is a good propagandist, as the Economist points out.
    Apart from the fact that most media in Venezuela is run by anti-Chavez proponents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caius
    When you have to vote with a gun in your head, I'm sure that the people will love him.
    Do you have any proof for that fact or are you going to throw around baseless claims?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kush
    If the people of Venezuela want a dictator, they got one. I just hope they don't have any regrets.
    Ah yes. Just like in Guatemala. Oh wait. The US put a dictator in there to replace the democratically elected Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán.
    #Hillary4prism

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