The right of self-determination

[PowerWizard]

The UN Charter says

All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

The charter and other resolutions did not insist on full independence as the best way of obtaining self-government, but during the decolonization of Africa, declaring independence and forming new states was acceptable by referring to the right of self-determination.

The Helsinki Final Act (international treaty, concluded in 1975) states that

By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self- determination of peoples, all peoples always have the right, in full freedom, to determine, when and as they wish, their internal and external political status, without external interference, and to pursue as they wish their political, economic, social and cultural development.

If we read this in historical context, it was of course a warning to the Soviet Union that it should respect the independence and sovereignity of its subjugated states. But this treaty also laid down that

The participating States recognize the universal significance of human rights and fundamental freedoms, respect for which is an essential factor for the peace, justice and well- being necessary to ensure the development of friendly relations and co-operation among themselves as among all States.

In a reading, this ensures the right to self determination and obliges the states to acknowledge this right. But what happens if a certain group of people wishes to establish a state or join another state? As I mentioned earlier, this was acceptable during the decolonization. But the content of this right is not so clear now, take the example of Kosovo that separated from Yugoslavia by the intervention of the international community and became a de facto proctetorate.

Do you think that the right of self-determination establishes the right to form new states?
Who has the right to self-determination? Who are the "peoples" the UN Charter mentions? Nations or minorities as well? Who can tell the difference?
What should happen if a minority happens to be a part of another nation in another state?

[CountArach]

Do you think that the right of self-determination establishes the right to form new states?

Yes I do, if a degree of autonomy is not granted to the people who wish to form their new state.

Who has the right to self-determination? Who are the "peoples" the UN Charter mentions? Nations or minorities as well? Who can tell the difference?

Well minorities are in fact the only people who would conceivably wish to break off and form their own state, so I do believe they are the peoples that the UN Charter mentions. I can't think of any way that a Nation could be defined as a Person.

What should happen if a minority happens to be a part of another nation in another state?

I have no problem with letting them form a new state.

[Fragony]

have to agree with CountArach here.

[Fiddling_nero]

[sarcasm] THE SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN!!! [sarcasm\]

Can't wait for strike to hear the news.

[CountArach]

have to agree with CountArach here.

Wait, wait... that has to be a typo...

So would you accept if the Irish decide to split away from Victonia and form their own state within that state? And what's happened to Victonia anyway?

No problems at all with that, providing it was democratic. And I have no idea what happened to Victonia - quite likely it became a US Nuclear testing facility.

[Pannonian]

No problems at all with that, providing it was democratic. And I have no idea what happened to Victonia - quite likely it became a US Nuclear testing facility.

Pity, as some of the posts there were classics, eg. Odin's Ernst Roehm and Lemur's mad Tory.

[KukriKhan]

And I have no idea what happened to Victonia - quite likely it became a US Nuclear testing facility.

LOL. Nothing is ever "gone" from the org, just occasionally moved out of sight, to a "secure, undisclosed location".

On topic: I think the documents cited go too far in 'granting' self-determination. In my personal opinion, you are only 'entitled' to property which you can govern/control and defend.

Group a1, currently residing in Country A, wants independence, and asks Country A for it, peacefully. If Country A sez OK, fine. If Country A sez "No", then we have a problem. If Group a1 can take, hold, control and defend their area, I would recognize them as separate.

But if Group a1 just wants local control, and to no longer pay tribute to Country A while receiving services (including defense) from Country A, I say Group a1's claim is bogus.

Just imho.

[Pannonian]

Yes I do, if a degree of autonomy is not granted to the people who wish to form their new state.

Well minorities are in fact the only people who would conceivably wish to break off and form their own state, so I do believe they are the peoples that the UN Charter mentions. I can't think of any way that a Nation could be defined as a Person.

I have no problem with letting them form a new state.

So would you accept if the Irish decide to split away from Victonia and form their own state within that state? And what's happened to Victonia anyway?

[PowerWizard]

So would you accept if the Irish decide to split away from Victonia and form their own state within that state? And what's happened to Victonia anyway?

Funny, I just wanted to ask the exact same question.

How can I add a poll to this thread?

[Kralizec]

I have to agree with Fragony here.

[Strike For The South]

Where were you guys in the 1860s?

[Xiahou]

So, what if my family wants to declare our house an independent nation? Or maybe my town, or county, or state? At what point does this "right" apply?

[Kralizec]

Okay, now for a more detailed response...

I feel that if the majority of people in a certain region want independence, they should get it. That goes for Kosovo, Montenegro, Abchazia, North-Ossetia,Chechnya and so on. In many cases such regions are not viable as independent countries, but they'll just have to face the consequenses of their own choices

I'd apply the same principle to minorities who live in different countries, like the Kurds. If Iraq where to fall apart and there'd be an independent Kurdish state in the north of it, and the majority of Kurds in Turkey is stupid enough to want to join them, I say let them.

[Strike For The South]

Okay, now for a more detailed response...

I feel that if the majority of people in a certain region want independence, they should get it. That goes for Kosovo, Montenegro, Abchazia, North-Ossetia,Chechnya and so on. In many cases such regions are not viable as independent countries, but they'll just have to face the consequenses of their own choices

I'd apply the same principle to minorities who live in different countries, like the Kurds. If Iraq where to fall apart and there'd be an independent Kurdish state in the north of it, and the majority of Kurds in Turkey is stupid enough to want to join them, I say let them.

You realize this put every country in the western hemisphere in a very precarious position.

[Kralizec]

You realize this put every country in the western hemisphere in a very precarious position.

Who cares about them?

The only regions that come to mind are Quebec in Canada (where an independence was rejected in a referendum), parts of the southern USA with lots of latinos (of wich I recall you yourself have said that most of it is blown out of proportion) and Santa Cruz in Bolivia (whose rich white population don't want to be governed by a Chavez clone of native extraction)

Oh yeah, there's also the Netherlands Antilles - who could become independent if they wanted it, but they'd be completely hopeless as such and know it.

[Strike For The South]

Who cares about them?

The only regions that come to mind are Quebec in Canada (where an independence was rejected in a referendum), parts of the southern USA with lots of latinos (of wich I recall you yourself have said that most of it is blown out of proportion) and Santa Cruz in Bolivia (whose rich white population don't want to be governed by a Chavez clone of native extraction)

Oh yeah, there's also the Netherlands Antilles - who could become independent if they wanted it, but they'd be completely hopeless as such and know it.

The only reason the mindboggling number of ethnic groups hasn't torn America apart is because we shun determination and work for the ideal of being "American"

If Self determination was the norm than the outcome would not be the same.

A nation state allows people not to be so divided along ethnic or religious lines and instead invest themselves in a republic which rewards merit.

[rotorgun]

I don't think it could have been said any better than in the words of the Preamble of the Declaration of Independence.

IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness....

I am in favor of the right of self-determination, although I would rather see it achieved through non-violent civil disobedience, such as that which Gandhi espoused. It is unfortunate that violence is sometimes the only way to accomplish the goal. That is a path that is difficult to return from once trodden upon. Freedom is a precious commodity, often bought by the blood of patriots.