In the fine tradition of Mithridates VI Eupator and Oudysseos ;D, rather than add to the 60 pages of the New Factions guessing thread, I'd like to present a case for Syrakousai, with a proposed starting position of Syrakousai and perhaps Messana, who had been under control of Syrakousai for some years, under faction leader Hieron II.
Syrakousai
A short history (I hope):
Syrakousai was founded by Doric settlers from Korinthos and Tenea in either 735 or 734 BCE. Remarkebly enough, Syrakousai can trace its origins back to Tenedos of Troezen, after which Tenea was named. According to the legend, the founder of Syrakousai was a man named Archias, who went into self-imposed exile after a terrible plague that had tormented the city of Korinthos.
Quickly, Syrakousai grew into a great Polis. It became one of the most important Greek cities west of Hellas self, next to cities as Taras, Kroton and Massalia. The comparison with Massalia is perhaps somewhat unfounded, as there had been a great foreign population in Massalia, mostly Celtic, and Syrakousai had managed to stay Hellenic throughout the ages. The first true display of power came when Dionysios the First named himself strategos autokrator.
Coin of Dionysios I
Dionysios ascended the throne (though a slightly unfounded term) in the year of 405 BCE. The years before his accension had been marked primarily by continued Carthaginian expansion on the island of Sikilia. The Carthaginian general Hannibal (not to be confused with Hannibal, the scourge of Rome ) had conquered numerous cities on the island of Sicily. Some very important cities, including Akragas or Agrigentum, Himera and Selinus had fallen, and now a Carthaginian commander by the name Himilco besieged Gela (which was an important ally of Syrakousai). At that point, Dionysios marched towards the west, only to be defeated and forced to retreat to Syrakousai. Now only Syrakousai and its surrounding cities as well as the most northeastern tip of Sicily were still free from Carthaginian rule. The Greeks were miraculeously saved from conquest when a great plague struck and ravaged the Carthaginian army. Now both parties agreed to a ceasefire. Carthage retreated from the east of Sicily and contended with the previously independent cities on the west of Sicily, while Dionysios held onto Syrakousai.
The people of Syrakousai, however, despised Dionysios for what they saw as surrender. As early as 404 BCE they revolted en masse. Dionysos struck back hard; he liberated slaves, redistributed the lands, and helping the poor of the city. Fully aware that to win the hearts of the citizens, he had to attack Carthage once again, and he started to make preparations for his attack. Through ruthless diplomacy and hard-pressing "persuasion" he managed to gain control of Messana and some of the Greek cities on the east of the island. He also sent a shipment of grain to the Romans for some goodwill on Great Greece (Megále Hellas) herself.
In 398 he decided to attack. He immediately pushed far to the west and conquered the island of Motya. This victory swayed all of Syrakousai to his side and is renowned as one of the first sieges that relied on artillery. The next year Himilco returned to Sicily with a new army. Dionysios once again was forced to retreat to Syrakousai, which was then besieged in the year of 398 BCE. Once again the Greeks were saved when a second plague came over the Carthaginian forces, and once again the Carthaginians accepted to a ceasefire; this time Carthage would restore independence to the Greek cities in the west of Sicily. With a filled pouch and some cunning diplomacy he managed to convince the Greeks that he liberated them and he could soon add them to his empire.
At this point Dionysios started to grow arrogant. He captured Rhegion which allowed him full control of the strait of Messana and he attacked Carthage yet again in the year of 383. This war only left him with a large indemnity and the loss of his allies in the west. However, at the end of this war he did control the city of Croton, which had previously been a Carthaginian ally.
Dionysios finally died in the year of 367 after he attacked Carthage one last time.
Dionysios II, his son and successor then came to power. It soon became clear that Dionysios II was more interested in philosophy and the arts than his father had been, and he also realised that fortunes could as easily go as they came. Dion, Dionysios' uncle and advisor, had invited the Athenian philosopher to his court to advise Dionysios. However, the courtiers feared Dion's influence and managed to exile him.
Over the next years Plato came and went and eventually Dion himself returned, at the head of an army. He was greeted in Syracuse as a liberator, though he could not enjoy his victory for long. He was assassinated soon thereafter by agents of Kallipos, a philosopher. Subsequently Nylaeos and Hipparinos were named tyrants. In 347 Dionysios returned.
Embittered, he turned into a cruel despot, and the Syracusan citizens employed the help of a man named Hicetas, who liberated the city and exiled Dionysios.
With the problems in Sicily contuining, a man called Timoleon came to Sicily at the head of an army. Timophanes, Timoleon's brother had risen to power in Korinthos, and as Sicily had been plagued by constant civil strife and revoltuions, Timoleon had been sent from Korinthos to pacify Sicily.
When Timoleon landed in Sicily, he then attacked the same man which had invited him, Hicetas. He then opened negotiations with Dionysios II and offered his assistance in the war against Carthage. Dionysios agreed and allowed Timoleon's forces to enter his capital at Ortygia. Timoleon beat off the Carthaginian invaders, and Dionysios, who found himself outsmarted by the Korinthian, agreed to settle into Korinthos. Thus did the Dionysian influence ended in Sicily.
Timoleon then started with the process of pacifying Sicily. A total of 60,000 of Greeks accepted his offer to settle in Sicily (in a time that Megás Alexandros had conquered all of Greece), accepted grants of land and repopulated the cities. Timoleon also continued the war against Carthage, who kept encroaching on Greek Sicilian holdings. Timoleon managed to defeat the Carthaginian foe and the river Halycus in the middle in Sicily was chosen to be the border between Carthaginians and Greeks.
Timoleon then celebrated his victories by minting coins which showed ΔΙΟΣ ΕΛΕΥΘΕΡΙΟΣ.
Sicily prospered, and Timoleon retreated from public life. Fear for Alexandros kept people together that mistrusted eachother in the past. However, as the news of Alexandros' death reached Sicily, citizens that had previously worked together started to mistrust one another once again. And as such, civil war erupted once again. Timoleon himself had died many years before, in 337 BCE, and the man who took advantage of the problems was known as Agathokles.
Agathokles
Agathokles soon turned out to be one of the most ruthless tyrants Syrakousai had ever known. He abolished the oligarchy and made himself sole ruler of this city.He (as many tyrants before him) declared war on Carthage.In 311, Syracuse herself was besieged again. As there was no divine plague to rain disaster upon the Carthaginians, Agathokles did the most daring thing, something no other tyrant had done before. He boarded a fleet and sailed for Africa. There he laid siege to Carthago herself.
The Carthaginian commander immediately retreated from Sicily, and after several victories, Agathokles was finally defeated in 307 BCE and he was forced to retreat to Sicily. He did manage to gain a ceasefire with the Carthaginians in 306, which left him in control of the eastern part of the island. As several of Alexandros' successors in the east had named themselves King (Antigonos Monophtalmos, Demetrios Poliorketos and Ptolemaios I Soter) Agathokles did the same, in the year 304.
In his last days, Agathokles abolished the autocracy and reinstated the democracy. Agathokles finally died in 289.
With his death ended the last man that led Syrakousai to military greatness.
663 - Founding of Akragas
643 - Founding of Casmanae
6th century
598 - Founding of Camarina
c. 560 - Founding of Morgantina
5th century
491 - Gelon comes to power
478 - Death of Gelon, succession by Hieron I
467 - Death of Hieron, succession by Thrasbylos
465 - Thrasbylos overthrown, democracy instituted
410 - First Carthaginian War [410 - 405]
405 - Dionysios I overthrows the democracy, declares himself tyrant. End of the First Carthaginian War
404 - Syracusan revolt, repercussions by Dionysios
4th century
398 - Second Carthaginian War [398 - 392]
392 - End of Second Carthaginian War
387 - Conquest of Rhegion
383 - Third Carthaginian War [383 - 378]
378 - End of Third Carthaginian War
367 - Death of Dionysios I, Dionysios II comes to power
366 - End of the Second Carthaginian War
361 - Plato visits Syracuse
356 - Dionysios exiled, Dion returns, death of Dion, Nylaeos and Hipparinus tyrants.
354 - Revolts all across Sicily
347 - Return of Dionysios II
345 - Dionysios II overthrown, Hicetas comes to power. Hicetas defeated by Timoleon. On and off wars with Carthage [continued to 339]
339 - Peace treaty signed between Syracuse and Carthage
337 - Death of Timoleon. Oligarchy instituted
323 - Death of Megás Alexandros. Civil strife
316 - Agathokles comes to power
311 - Siege of Syracuse by the Carthaginians
310 - Invasion of Africa by Agathokles, Carthaginian retreat from Syracuse
307 - Agathokles defeated; retreated to Syracuse
304 - Agathokles names himself Basileos, or King
3rd century
288 - Death of Agathokles; democracy reinstituted
278 - Pyrrhos arrives in Sicily
276 - Pyrrhos retreats to Epiros, leaving Sicily sandwiched between Roma and Carthage. Hieron tyrant
264 - Appius Claudius Caudex conquers Messana; start of the first Punic War
261 - Fall of Akragas to the Romans
241 - Last Carthaginian presence removed from Sicily by the Romans, Sicily is now a Roman province
218 - Start of the Second Punic War
215 - Death of Hieron, Hieronymos seizes power and sides with Carthage.
212 - Surrender of Syracuse to the Romans.
Okay, history was not so short as previously thought V_V
As we have seen, Syrakousai played a very special role in the affairs of Sicily, Italy and even North Africa during the fifth and fourth centuries BCE. We have seen that they swung constantly between oligarchy, autocracy and democracy.
I do not know to what an extent traits can have influence on the engine itself (if any), though I think that allowing certain traits, not unlike the ethnicity traits for Syrakousian family members. This would (naturally be) Oligarchist, Autocrator and Democrat.
Furthermore, from what I have found, I have several ideas concerning ethnicities available to the Syrakousioi:
Korinthian, Helleno-Sikilian, Spartan, Tarentine, and Epirote. Epiros had a special relation with Syracuse, especially after Pyrrhos had been tyrant of Syracuse.
Sikilian cities: One of the greatest arguments against the inclusion of Syrakousai was the lack of settlements on Sicily. In this case I think that Permanent Stone Forst could be made to represent minor cities. In this case, I would advocate the inclusion of Akragas or Agrigenton and Himera. This would make the fight for Sicily more accurate and rewarding (Sicily was very important location for trade)
In the interest of historical accuracy, Agathokles, who gave a daughter to Pyrrhos as a bride, did manage to invade Carthage. Syrakousai in their greatest extent controlled all of Sicily, but for some Qarthadastim holdouts, a big part of Magna Grecia had a lot of colonies in both Illyria, North Italy and even on Napoleons' island (Syrakosion limen).
That to me sounds like a lot of land property. Problem is that most people just don't know about it.
I do not know what sources he used, but as he is a trusted EB Member, I trust him in this. I have at least found that Syrakousai had connections with the cities of Kamarina and Lissus in Epirus.
HamilcarBarca:
The tyrannoi of Syracuse had an influence outside of Sicily at their peak! Dionysius I of Syracuse held sway over most of Sicily, and ports in Magna Graecia - southern Italy - such as Kroton and Locri. In addition, Dionysius recruited Gallic mercenaries from the northern Adriatic (Senones), supported Greek enclaves in northern Italy (Spina) and the Adriatic Sea (Lissus & Pharos), and was an ally of Sparta.
King Agaothcles of Sparta also sought to dominate southern Italy, and made alliance with the Bruttians so as to dominate Kroton and Locri. And he famously sought to overrun Carthage and Libya in alliance with Ophellas - the ptolemaic governor of Kyrene...
So at its peak, the tyrants of Sicily were super-powers of the central Mediterranean.
Of course, this information is very interesting. Combined with what I found on Wikipedia:
A treaty in 392 BC allowed Syracuse to enlarge further its possessions, founding the cities of Adrano, Ancona, Adria, Tindari and Tauromenos, and conquering Reggio Calabria on the continent.
With all this information together, I made a map of what would seem historically accurate to me;
All of this together would them have conditions somewhat similar to a western Koinon Hellenon.
From what I've gathered on the internets, it seems that the best way to start would to have the Syrakousioi at war with the Carthaginians and allied with Epiros Possibly also an alliance with the Koinon Hellenon (?).
This is evidently stuff for a tabletop game, and I like to see it as re-enactment on a smaller scale:
3Cav Greek cavalry
2LH Greek light cavalry
4Sp Syracusan or mercenary hoplites
4Aux Can be depicted as follows:
* Mercenary Greek Peltasts who may have first appeared in this army when Thracian peltasts were first hired in 390 BC;
* Theureophroi appeared during the third century BC, after 275 BC according to DBM list. These replaced Peltasts; or
* Campanian or Samnites from southern Italy
3Aux Can be depicted as:
* Ligurians from Northern Italy;
* Sikels who were natives from the interior of Sicily; or
* Spanish mercenaries. Spanish troops at first may have been Celtiberians. So during Dionysios reign you may wish to replace Spanish Ax with Celtiberian 1x3Wb. Whether they were Celtiberians or not the first Spanish Mercenaries appeared in Syracuse army about 396 BC.
3Wb Mercenary Gauls
Art Bolt shooters
2Ps Archers, slingers or javelinmen
Why the Hippeis Xystophoroi as a General's unit? If we can believe what Thukydides (and VT Martin ;D) wrote:
As far as military is concerned, I believe that cavalry shall not be omitted: Thukydides account surprisingly strong cavalry contingents in Syracusan and her allies´ armies during Peloponnesian war. Of course, this is far from EB tie-frame, but one can assume that if there once was a rather strong cavalry tradition, it would not be abandoned completely 150 later.
As such I think it only fair to have the best Greek cavalry available as the bodyguard of the Syracusan general. However, according to the EB descriptions the Xystophoroi were mainly invented to counter the Macedonian heavy cavalry. Syrakousai never had any direct conflict with Makedonia, so they wouldn't have been invented there. However, the Xystophoroi could also just act as another type of heavy Greek cavalry.
Overall, I guess that wherever Syrakousai would expand, they'd make an extensive use of mercenaries, and seeing their special relation with the colonies in northern Italy, they'd probably get a lot of native units as well!
I could compose this information out of one link alone, sadly. If anyone else can get more information on the Syrakousan military, we could really take this proposal far.
Hierokles: I've found very little concerning him, and he would most likely already be dead or very old in 272 BC, so I will not really go into detail about him. If there's anything to find about him anyways.
Leptines: An interesting fellow. He was the father of Hieron's wife, Philistis. He was the son of Leptines I, who was Dionysios I's brother. This made him Dionysios' nephew, and thus a very influential character in Syrakousai. To represent this, Hieron might be given an "Influential wife"-like trait or start with a natural 1/2 influence. Family connections, eh. Leptines was exiled in 342 BCE and died in Corinth (it is unknown whether Philistis had already been born by then)
Hieron: The King. He was born around 306 BC. In 275BC, after Pyrrhos had left and the city was left in turmoil, he executed a military coup and got into power. In 265 he defeated the Mamertines and was named Basileos by his subjects:
"This action put an end to the Mamertines’ aggressive conduct, and when Hiero returned to Syracuse he was saluted by all the allies as king [c. 265 BC]. " -Polybios.
This victory upset the delicate balance between the Carthaginians, Syracusans and Romans who all had a shared interest in Sicilia. Roma reacted by helping the Mamertines and Hieron and the Carthaginians were initially allied to eachother. When his forces were defeated multiple times, Hieron reconsidered and allied himself to the Romans:
"When the Romans went to war with Carthage for the possession of Sicily [the First Punic War], the Carthaginians held more than half the island, and Hiero sided with them at the beginning of the war. Shortly after, however, he changed over to the Romans, thinking that they were stronger, and firmer and more reliable friends." - Pausanias
Hieron was known as a wise and able ruler and his rule was characterized by prosperity. He eventually died in 215, his son Gelon dying in 216. He was extremely long-lived, for he had been about 90 at the time of his death.
Gelon II: Son of Hieron II. From what I've gathered, he died in 216, one year before his father who would have been 90 in 215 BC. According to the site I have found Gelon was "in his fifties" when he died, which would make Hieron 40 when he was born. In 272 he would be 3 years of age.
Zoippos and Heraclia: Zoippos was the husband of Heraclia, Hieron's eldest daughter. Her birth date is unknown sadly. Logically, there would be a two to three year distance per child, so that would make Heraclia 9 or 10 in 272 BC. Too young to be married, I'm afraid. The character of Zoippos would have to be scrapped. Oh well, she'll find another one in-game.
Adranodoros and Damarata: The same problem goes for Adranodoros and Damarata. If we make Damarata 3 years younger than Heraclia [Herakleia] she would be around six. That would mean no Adranodoros either!
If you do choose not to include Syrakousai, I hope this can at least be a nice read for people which then might feel to make a mod of their own when EB II comes out.
Disclaimer: I am merely a beta-tester for the EB team. I have no access to the EBH, and as thus I do not know what factions have been confirmed. The EB team cannot be held accountable for all the stuff I've written here.
I think a western greek faction stuck between the Romans and Carthage (and possibly Epeiros) would be quite a challenging and fun faction to play with. But if it has to be ditched in favor of a maybe more exotic/less well known faction, I wouldn't mind either.
Interesting stuff, Hax. Though, if I understood Krusader correctly, the problem with Syracuse as a faction is that we know next to nothing about their military in the post-Alexander period.
BTW, there is a typo in the sentence regarding the foundation date.
Interesting stuff, Hax. Though, if I understood Krusader correctly, the problem with Syracuse as a faction is that we know next to nothing about their military in the post-Alexander period.
Ah yes, this was also one of the questions I wanted to ask. It seems likely that Pyrrhos trained at least some troops in the phalangite way when he was in Sicily? Is this likely? Also, there were the Leukaspides from Taras, though I don't know whether a Syracusan equivalent existed.
I certainly support this idea, they would make for a great faction. They would be between Carthage and Rome and would provide some more balance. And it would also make for some great gameplay!
And for those who think: But Syracuse conquering big parts of land is unhistorical. After the start of the game everything will be unhistorical, a rising Syracuse isn't that unlikely. Rome went from a City State to a empire, I find it naive to think that other city states couldn't perform the same!
So yeah, I really hope that it will be a faction. Along with some others hopefully, or instead of some others: Massilia, Bosporus, Cyrene, Aetolean League. I was also hoping that Pergamon would come in and it did.
As you've probably noticed I can't wait to see the next official EB faction.
Ah yes, this was also one of the questions I wanted to ask. It seems likely that Pyrrhos trained at least some troops in the phalangite way when he was in Sicily? Is this likely? Also, there were the Leukaspides from Taras, though I don't know whether a Syracusan equivalent existed.
My gut feeling would be Hoplites, Hoplites with more open order fighting styles, and Mercs. Honestly, that's probably the main barrier to inclusion.
Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.
I could see a more flexible military, with some regional Italian units and Greek Peltastai. Their hoplitai appear to have adopted different tactics and weapons than their Hellenic counterparts, namely the longer spears and looser formations. Who knows?
My Balloon! -Strategos Alexandros- "What to do with the Epeirotes?"
Why did the Romans fall?
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Because everyone got sick of the Lorica Segmentata!
An interesting idea, Novellus. Of course, the early Syracusan unit roster would be quite limited, but as they expand into Megale Hellas a variety of Italic units could open up. Think Samnitici Milites, Hastati Samnitici, Hippeis Tarantinoi and the like.
I would have imagined those. I wonder how willing the Samnitici would have been to aide the Syrakousai? If there were any existing alliances or not, I mean. But yes, those units would definitely round off the roster should Syracuse be added as a faction.
It's a shame that none of the EB team members has commented yet. It would certainly relieve us of our suspense!
My Balloon! -Strategos Alexandros- "What to do with the Epeirotes?"
Why did the Romans fall?
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Because everyone got sick of the Lorica Segmentata!
I do know that the Etruscans were engaged in several wars with the Syracusans, though some hundred years before EB's starting date. However, after the battle of Cumae in which a Etruscan fleet was completely destroyed, both Roma and the Samnites were awarded with large swathes of land. I guess that the Samnites would once again help the Syracusans should they emerge as the largest empire in Italy.
its not that we know nothing about syrakousai and its military...
"The mere statement of fact, though it may excite our interest, is of no benefit to us, but when the knowledge of the cause is added, then the study of history becomes fruitful." -Polybios
From what inforamtion is here on the Syrakousai they seem expansionist and powerful enough to warrant a faction slot in EBII... the question is, are there more important factions to portray instead? I think that a good case has been made for Syracuse, but I am afraid that when not in the hands of the human player they would only ever become a regional power at most, perhaps taking Sicily and Bruttium before being conquerd by the Romans.
Excellent case, Hax! I sincerelly hope that Syracusae WILL be included as a faction.
BTW: consider how many people play her anyway in migration campaigns.
As far as military is concerned, I believe that cavalry shall not be omitted: Thukydides account surprisingly strong cavalry contingents in Syracusan and her allies´ armies during Peloponnesian war. Of course, this is far from EB tie-frame, but one can assume that if there once was a rather strong cavalry tradition, it would not be abandoned completely 150 later.
Originally Posted by CaesarAugustus
I am afraid that when not in the hands of the human player they would only ever become a regional power at most, perhaps taking Sicily and Bruttium before being conquerd by the Romans.
This not a very good argument. The same could be said about Pontos...
Nevertheless, there is a good chance that Syracusae will endure, because if they manage to conquer Sicily, they would have one ore two stacks in Messana-Rhegion area, making Rome reluctant to attack and sustain the pressure thither. Heck, I have seen Carthage AI (which is distracted by her numerous other fronts) to expand from Lylibeo as as far as Bononia in my EB 1.1. Pahlava campaign. So there is a chance.
Another pertinent question is how well the M2TW engine copes with naval force/invasios???
Another pertinent question is how well the M2TW engine copes with naval force/invasios???
It's way better than in RTW, and I think it's moddable to some extent.
We could always give them belly bows.
Ah yes of course, the Gastraphetes. However, was it used in large numbers enough to warrant a unit slot in EB II? From what I've found on the internets it says that the gastraphetes was invented around 400 BC (though some historians place it earlier around 425 BC). I'm pretty sure that the Syrakousioi would have good access to artillery though (which would be their main point in the game), as they invented a lot of those bolt-shooters.
Updated the first post with some information concerning the Syrakousian military.
excellent case for a new faction - i am very much in favour (though of course my opinion counts for nothing) of these extended researched presentations for factions, rather than just yelling out names. so well done Hax, twas a good read, and could prompt some further good ideas.
inde consilivm mihi pavca de Avgvsto et extrema tradere, mox Tiberii principatum et cetera, sine ira et stvdio, qvorvm cavsas procvl habeo.
Why the Hippeis Xystophoroi as a General's unit? If we can believe what Thukydides (and VT Martin ;D) wrote:
Originally Posted by V.T. Marvin
As far as military is concerned, I believe that cavalry shall not be omitted: Thukydides account surprisingly strong cavalry contingents in Syracusan and her allies´ armies during Peloponnesian war. Of course, this is far from EB tie-frame, but one can assume that if there once was a rather strong cavalry tradition, it would not be abandoned completely 150 later.
As such I think it only fair to have the best Greek cavalry available as the bodyguard of the Syracusan general. However, according to the EB descriptions the Xystophoroi were mainly invented to counter the Macedonian heavy cavalry. Syrakousai never had any direct conflict with Makedonia, so they wouldn't have been invented there. However, the Xystophoroi could also just act as another type of heavy Greek cavalry.
Oopps, Hax, I have written the cavalry remark to draw attention to some evidence, that Syracusan army used to employ more horses (numerically) than was the norm in the mainland Greece. It does not necessarily follow that those horsemen had been heavy lancers, though. My idea, and now I am recollecting what I have read in Thukidides out of my head, was more in the line of javelin/sword cavalry (something like Hippakontistai or Tarantinoi Hippeis, Hetairoi Aspidophoroi at best). Sorry if it sounded as some authoritative statement or led you to premature conclusion.
I promise I will check again what could be found on the subject in Thukydides and post again as soon as possible.
Anyway, to decide the matter woud demand far more solid evidence than that. My guess is that Polybios might be a usefull source (and within EB timeframe!!!), but unfortuately I have not read him yet.
But I have bought a Czech translation his Histories a week ago so I can check this as well.
And I am pretty sure that there is a lot of experts vastly more knowledgable than me who can shed some light on Syracusan military.
That arguent of Ludens ("the problem with Syracuse as a faction is that we know next to nothing about their military in the post-Alexander period") may be valid but certainly not decisive: there must be much more evidence and plausible analogy to base the game-reconstruction on for Syracuse than for certain other factions/units in EB.
I don't believe syracuse would be a good addition to EB. Although the faction would be great if it were not for gameplay lacking. In my experience the most negative side of EB is that that the greatest wars in antiquity ( the punic wars ) are not portrayed. Rome stays away from sicily, and Carthage doesn't want to try and fight for Italy either. Imagine what would happen if another power was present in Sicily? If Syracuse conquered the island, i sincerly doubt that Carthage would try to regain it, and the romans as they seem in EB would probably rather go north.
If on the other hand MTWII improves on the AI naval operations and the EB team could find a way to "force" the punic wars, then i'm all for those treacherous greeks, since they couldn't decide whom to ally with
The Athenian troops landed outside Syracuse, and lined up eight men deep with the Argives and Mantineans on the right, the rest of the allies on the left, and the Athenians themselves in the centre. The Syracusans were deployed sixteen men deep, in order to offset the advantage of the Athenians in experience. They also had 1,200 cavalry, vastly outnumbering the Athenian cavalry, although the total numbers of men were about the same. The Athenians attacked first, believing themselves to be the stronger and more experienced army, and after some unexpectedly strong resistance, the Argives pushed back the Syracusan left wing, causing the rest to flee. The Syracusan cavalry prevented the Athenians from chasing them, thereby averting a catastrophe for the Syracusans, who lost about 260 men, and the Athenians about 50. The Athenians then sailed back to Catana for the winter.
On September 13, the Athenians left camp leaving their wounded behind and their dead unburied. The survivors, including all the non-combatants, numbered 40,000, and some of the wounded crawled after them as far as they could go. As they marched they defeated a small Syracusan force guarding the river Anapus, but other Syracusan cavalry and light troops continually harassed them.
Another interesting read is the chapter VI of Thucydides´ History of the Peloponnesian War, who talks about the Sicilian expedition with more details.
Here is a interesting quote i found: The Syracusans, meanwhile, formed their heavy infantry sixteen deep, consisting of the mass levy of their own people, and such allies as had joined them, the strongest contingent being that of the Selinuntines; next to them the cavalry of the Geloans, numbering two hundred in all, with about twenty horse and fifty archers from Camarina
I don't believe syracuse would be a good addition to EB. Although the faction would be great if it were not for gameplay lacking. In my experience the most negative side of EB is that that the greatest wars in antiquity ( the punic wars ) are not portrayed. Rome stays away from sicily, and Carthage doesn't want to try and fight for Italy either. Imagine what would happen if another power was present in Sicily? If Syracuse conquered the island, i sincerly doubt that Carthage would try to regain it, and the romans as they seem in EB would probably rather go north.
Indeed a very good argument. However, in Medieval II (and probably even likelier in Kingdoms) the naval AI has been greatly improved. I have seen numerous invasions by the Danes into England in Stainless Steel and several attacks by Scotland and England in France. I think that modded properly, we could force the Romans and Carthaginians to focus more on island holdings than in EB I.
Personally I think that Syracuse would make a great faction (this implies nothing about what the EBII team has already decided and is not an official endorsement). Particularly, I have always felt that a faction need not be poised for world domination: I would find it just as much fun to play a smaller regional power in an interesting position, and I think Syracuse fits that bill perfectly. I have a good Syracuse campaign going on in Paeninsula Italica 0.86, and although the dynamic is totally different because of the map and factions, still I can feel it.
οἵη περ φύλλων γενεὴ τοίη δὲ καὶ ἀνδρῶν.
Even as are the generations of leaves, such are the lives of men.
Glaucus, son of Hippolochus, Illiad, 6.146
Particularly, I have always felt that a faction need not be poised for world domination
My point exactly. Take for example the Seleukidai. I don't think they were really interested in claiming a big chunk of Germania, now. This is more obvious in the Koinon Hellenon, of course.
Syrakousai - A case for a new faction
) had conquered numerous cities on the island of Sicily. Some very important cities, including Akragas or Agrigentum, Himera and Selinus had fallen, and now a Carthaginian commander by the name Himilco besieged Gela (which was an important ally of Syrakousai). At that point, Dionysios marched towards the west, only to be defeated and forced to retreat to Syrakousai. Now only Syrakousai and its surrounding cities as well as the most northeastern tip of Sicily were still free from Carthaginian rule. The Greeks were miraculeously saved from conquest when a great plague struck and ravaged the Carthaginian army. Now both parties agreed to a ceasefire. Carthage retreated from the east of Sicily and contended with the previously independent cities on the west of Sicily, while Dionysios held onto Syrakousai.
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Re: Syrakousai - A case for a new faction
Originally Posted by Hax
-Strategos Alexandros- "What to do with the Epeirotes?"
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