Thoughts (and a question) on Class, Ethnicity, and Morale in Arche Seleukia

[Tudhaliya]

Diadochoi armies are all about two things - pikes and cavalry. The Seleukids are no exception. If there is one weakness to this army, it is that it requires extreme cohesion to work effectively. The pikes have to stay in formation, the cavalry has to able to check its pursuit, and communication between the two halves has to be frequent and full. How did the Seleukids manage this with the hodgepodge of ethnic enclaves that was their empire? How did the soldiers trust each other? Did the pezoi know, did they feel in their hearts, that the cavalry would return to rescue them after a successful breakthrough, like Alexander did at Gaugamela? It is puzzling through these questions that brought me to the forums to ask for some historical/roleplaying advice.
I noticed that the AS can be divided into roughly two classes - "native" and for lack of a better term "royal". The royals are not neccesarily Greeks, nor are the native barbarians. Anyone who received a land-grant for their service and thus had a stake in the outcome of a fight would be considered of the royal faction. In the Greek and Roman context, they would be the full citizens. The native are those who fight because they are either forced to, or are receiving regular pay. Levies and mercenaries fall into this category, but also those who are obliged to serve the Basileous without promise of receiving land or citizenship. This includes the soldiers of the Type III and IV client states, even the elite cavalry.
Besides the above division, there is also the variable of ethnicity. The hoplitai and hippakontistai of Mikra Asia have a much larger chance of joining the katoikoi military settlers if they perform well in battle than do the Mada Asabara or horse-archers of the East.
Lastly there is the division of socio-economic status. As seen in the game, the defeated Persians aristocracy are a proud and fierce body of men. Even though they serve a foreign master, units like the Kinsmen heavy cavalry will fight well if only for their honor. Conversely, only so much can be expected of a Syriakoi Klerouchoi phalangitai.
So using the above variables, here's what I've come up with for my Seleukid armies. All of the lists below show the "core" of the army. Room for an additional few units is left for customization.

"Royal Army" [Antiocheia]- almost exclusively rich Makedonian citizens.
H. Cavalry (2) - Hetairoi
L. Cavalry (2) - Prodromoi
Pikemen (6) - 5 Pezhetaroi, 1 Argyraspidai
Heavy Infantry (3) - 1 Thorakitai Argyraspidai, 1 Hypaspistai, 1 P. Makedoniai
Skirmisher (2) - Peltastai
Ranged (2) - 1 Toxotai Kretikoi, 1 Toxotai Syriakoi

"Western Standing Army" [Ipsos]- a Klerouchoi pikeline with Greek auxilliaries
M. Cavalry (2) - Lonchophoroi Hippeis (I treat this as local Greek nobles insted of Makedonians)
Missle Cavalry (2) - Hippakontistai
Pikemen (6) - Klerouchoi Phalangitai
Heavy Infantry (3) - Hoplitai/Thureophoroi/Thorakitai
Skirmisher (2) - 1 Peltastai, 1 Akontistai
Ranged (2) - Toxotai/Sphendonetai

"Eastern Standing Army" [Hekatompylos or Antiocheia Margiana or Khiva] - A smaller Klerouchoi pikeline with more ranged units. My concern with this army list is that it doesn't have enough "royal" Seleukid units in it, especially before the Kataphrakt reforms. What's to stop them from simply joining the enemy?
H. Cavalry (2) - Khuveshagana or Kataphraktoi Hellenikoi
M. Cavalry (2) - Mada Asabara/Eastern Medium Cavalry
Ms. Cavalry (2) - Regional javalin cavalry
Pikemen (4) - Klerouchoi Phalangitai, or if not available, Pantodapoi Phalangitai
Spearmen (2) - Regional spearmen
Ranged (6) - Regional Footarchers

"Late Horse-Archer Army" [East] - I roleplay this when its later in my AS campaign and I've defeated the Parthians. I have it that my enlightned Basileios has wisely given the Parthian nobles klerouchies, absorbing them into the Hellenic Kataphractery, and instructing them to maintain their herds and kinsmen. The Pahlavan-i Shivatir (Parthian HA's) are thus "epiklerouchoi" in that if we win battles, their nobles get lots of land, and in turn the whole tribe gets more pasturage and riches.
H. Cavalry (5) - Kataphraktoi Hellenikoi
Ms. Cavalry (15) - Pahlavan-i Shivatir

So there you have it. Any comments about how historical this all is? How I might change things or suggestions for historical roleplay? I am also capable of modding everything but the .CAS files, so suggestions that involve modding are also welcome.

[Tudhaliya]

c'mon now folks. Don't be shy. I see that 73 of you have viewed this post. I don't need your replies to be a missive - an educated burp would do, really.

[Cute Wolf]

"Royal Army" [Antiocheia]- almost exclusively rich Makedonian citizens.
H. Cavalry (2) - Hetairoi
L. Cavalry (2) - Prodromoi
Pikemen (6) - 5 Pezhetaroi, 1 Argyraspidai
Heavy Infantry (3) - 1 Thorakitai Argyraspidai, 1 Hypaspistai, 1 P. Makedoniai
Skirmisher (2) - Peltastai
Ranged (2) - 1 Toxotai Kretikoi, 1 Toxotai Syriakoi

That was quite historical, but perhaps you can change Toxotai Syriakoi to Toxotai Kretikoi

"Western Standing Army" [Ipsos]- a Klerouchoi pikeline with Greek auxilliaries
M. Cavalry (2) - Lonchophoroi Hippeis (I treat this as local Greek nobles insted of Makedonians)
Missle Cavalry (2) - Hippakontistai
Pikemen (6) - Klerouchoi Phalangitai
Heavy Infantry (3) - Hoplitai/Thureophoroi/Thorakitai
Skirmisher (2) - 1 Peltastai, 1 Akontistai
Ranged (2) - Toxotai/Sphendonetai

use Hoplitai as Heavy Infantry to round up your strength, use either only Akontistai or peltastai for nicer unit cards' row

"Eastern Standing Army" [Hekatompylos or Antiocheia Margiana or Khiva] - A smaller Klerouchoi pikeline with more ranged units. My concern with this army list is that it doesn't have enough "royal" Seleukid units in it, especially before the Kataphrakt reforms. What's to stop them from simply joining the enemy?
H. Cavalry (2) - Khuveshagana or Kataphraktoi Hellenikoi
M. Cavalry (2) - Mada Asabara/Eastern Medium Cavalry
Ms. Cavalry (2) - Regional javalin cavalry
Pikemen (4) - Klerouchoi Phalangitai, or if not available, Pantodapoi Phalangitai
Spearmen (2) - Regional spearmen
Ranged (6) - Regional Footarchers

You forgot Plain and unsurprisingly bad Pantodapoi spearmen..... AS tends to use them in ridiculouly large number.... you better use some Ioudaioi Taxeis instead.

For your HA army, no comment...

That's was my opinion...

[A Very Super Market]

Now, based on my strategy, your armies are much too epic for my tastes. They have a good balance of troops, but I would just feel like I'm cheating if I marched them around all day. My main fighters are weaker native spearmen, phalanx and archer-spearmen. As soon as they get many chevrons, I disband them to simulate them serving their time already. But my full-stack, professional ones are basicaly identical to yours.

[Tudhaliya]

Now, based on my strategy, your armies are much too epic for my tastes. They have a good balance of troops, but I would just feel like I'm cheating if I marched them around all day. My main fighters are weaker native spearmen, phalanx and archer-spearmen. As soon as they get many chevrons, I disband them to simulate them serving their time already. But my full-stack, professional ones are basicaly identical to yours.

I hear you on that. I feel that the "Royal Army" could be considered full-time professional, though the pezhetairoi have to breed and manage their estates some time, so maybe I should reconsider. Oh, btw, I never build professional armies in a city before I have Land Grants and Estates built, or Katoikoi out east. Though buildings really should be prereqs for some units. As for the "Western Standing Army" I think their just plausible enough as a professional force. You've got Klerouchoi pikemen who have their sons and relatives to manage their estates, so they don't need to be back home more than a few months a year. The Lonchophoroi Hippeis are about the same. The Hippakontistai are poorer Greek nobility, and probably younger sons to boot, so their not going to inherit anything. Why not join the AS's army for life and make some good money? Its in the East that I have trouble. I really don't see how I could legitimately RP a standing army out there. I mean, maybe if I regularly disband everything but my Klerouchoi pikes and my Kataphraktoi (when I get them). Other than that, there's no unit that would willingly become a professional, non-mercenary soldier. I mean, the Persians hate me, even though I try to be lovely to them. The steppe nomads probably don't even understand what "standing army" means.

How do you guys play the Seleukid East?

[soup_alex]

The steppe nomads probably don't even understand what "standing army" means.

"Of course we do! It means... an army of horseless levies?"

[BurningEGO]

How do you guys play the Seleukid East?

Damn man, i wish you havent asked that question.

I believe most people in these forums must have seen this picture, like, 3 times by now, but since you really asked...



Pandotapoi! PANDOTAPOI! P-A-N-D-O-T-A-P-O-I! Damnit. Just mass em. Sheer weight will do, and not even the heaviest horse will get out alive. Nor will arrows kill them all since there are more Pandotapoi then arrows available. These guys rock.


Regardless, your stacks might seem very good, but i wonder when will you be able to actually recruit them. Currently about 250 BC in my game, and i was unable to build almost anything at all since i kept having enemies in multiple fronts at the same time (therefore, the reason why i had to mass pandotapoi in the east). My best training facilities are located in Alexandria, and only because i took the training grounds from the Ptolies.

Although i do plan on eventually getting some elite troops to go in a rampage in the west eventually, but such luxury will have to wait. I would, of course, include Heavy Elephants in that army, not to speak about Heavy Kataphrats. I believe the Seleucids used such during the Syrian wars, and obviously i will. However to a greater effect.

[Lysimachos]

So there you have it. Any comments about how historical this all is? How I might change things or suggestions for historical roleplay? I am also capable of modding everything but the .CAS files, so suggestions that involve modding are also welcome.

Other than that, there's no unit that would willingly become a professional, non-mercenary soldier. I mean, the Persians hate me, even though I try to be lovely to them. The steppe nomads probably don't even understand what "standing army" means.

How do you guys play the Seleukid East?

There is nothing that speaks against bringing units to places where they are not native, the seleucids themselves did that often enough. Why not send some hellenic units into the armies in the east?
I tend to mix some galatians in the armies. It gives some additional color and they have some uses, especially Galatikoi Tindanotae or Galatikoi Kuarothoroi. Iudaioi Taxeis are also a good choice. Jews have been garrisoned all over the empire and proved loyal servants to the king.

I'm not quite sure about the Persians hating you. I think there were a lot of people for whom the seleucid empire had its advantages, not to forget that the seleucid kings from Antiochos Soter onwards had persian blood, too. I think in the game it should depend on the way you rule your empire: as an almost purely makedon/hellenic foreign rule or a melting pot in which the ruling class descends from all ethnicities and native customs play a distinct role in life.

[Tudhaliya]

There is nothing that speaks against bringing units to places where they are not native, the seleucids themselves did that often enough. Why not send some hellenic units into the armies in the east?
I tend to mix some galatians in the armies. It gives some additional color and they have some uses, especially Galatikoi Tindanotae or Galatikoi Kuarothoroi. Iudaioi Taxeis are also a good choice. Jews have been garrisoned all over the empire and proved loyal servants to the king.

I'm not quite sure about the Persians hating you. I think there were a lot of people for whom the seleucid empire had its advantages, not to forget that the seleucid kings from Antiochos Soter onwards had persian blood, too. I think in the game it should depend on the way you rule your empire: as an almost purely makedon/hellenic foreign rule or a melting pot in which the ruling class descends from all ethnicities and native customs play a distinct role in life.

I definitely try to have Persikoi running cities in the East. They actually make awesome administrators because they don't steal from the royal treasury like my stupid Makedons! I was just going on the description of the Mada Asabara where it says they are quite prone to rebellion.

Now, I'm going to get in a lot of trouble here for saying this, because I've never seen it said on these forums before: I actually don't like the Galatians that much. They're underarmored, expensive, and probably smelly. That and their pen0rs hang out all the time. Now, maybe if I was playing the Ptolemies, I could get those nice Galatikoi Klerouchoi. Then I'd use em. But unlike my perfidious Egyptian brethren, I have no way of washing, shaving, and armoring my Keltoi. Thus, I don't use them.

As for Iudaioi Taxeis, I use them all the time in the Levant. What I really need out East is some of their Indohellenikoi Peltastai counterparts. But Baktra seems to have an exclusive contract with them.

Lastly, as for Pantodapoi... Sigh. Their voices ring in my head even as I write this. Pan-to-da-po-EEE. Pan-to-da-po-EEE (Pha-lan-GEE-tai). But srsly...? Even the Parthian spearmen kick their ass! :(

But I will take your suggestions, and learn to love the carboard shields and soiled tunics of my omni-recruitable subjects.

[Lysimachos]

Now, I'm going to get in a lot of trouble here for saying this, because I've never seen it said on these forums before: I actually don't like the Galatians that much. They're underarmored, expensive, and probably smelly. That and their pen0rs hang out all the time. Now, maybe if I was playing the Ptolemies, I could get those nice Galatikoi Klerouchoi. Then I'd use em. But unlike my perfidious Egyptian brethren, I have no way of washing, shaving, and armoring my Keltoi. Thus, I don't use them.

Hahaha, you should use the modesty patch if that hanging out is a problem
Seriously, take Ankyra, build there a level 2 gov and a level 4 factional MIC and you will be able to train Kuarothoroi, who are decently clothed and excellent spearmen. Don't know about their smelliness

[A Very Super Market]

Only the wild men are naked. Others are shirtless. Its alright. And most of your subjects smell anyways. Keep them behind your phalanxes, and use them as pseudo-cavalry to break through enemy spear people.

[desert]

That's something that always bothered me.

So is the "-oi" one pronounced as one syllable, or two?

OY or O-EEH?

[A Very Super Market]

O-EE, though I think I've heard a few game sounds that say OY

[soup_alex]

Mis-the-por-o-i Pez-het-ai-ir-o-i?

[BurningEGO]

Elephantes Indiko-i
Pandotapo-i

[theoldbelgian]

I always thought that for it to sound nicer you shoud pronounce it wi example: PEZ-HEITA-RO-WI

[SwissBarbar]

Do you pronounce the -AI the same way, or is it AY then?

I always pronounce the OI as you said. Pantodapo-i (owi, oui, ooohhhhiiiihhh , you know)

but the Akontistai as Akontistai (ay)


And how to pronounce Iudaioi Taxeis - is it the "X" like pronounce it in German (or english)?

Taxeis = Takse-is / Tag-se-is ?


How do you pronounce Klerouchoi?


Hippeis are pronounced Hipp-e-is, right?

How do you pronounce the "ch" in Lonchophoroi? Like in english?

And in Kataphraktoi, the PH, is it like F or like P ? I pronounce it more as a "P"

And in Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou, I pronounce it Tho-ra-ki-tai (ay) - A-ge-ma-tos - Ba-si-li-ko-u

Would it be A-ge-ma-tos or A-ge-ma-tos ?

After all these question, the most interesting name to pronounce would be Xystophoroi ^^


Thanks in advance for answering. ;-)

[desert]

I'd rather wait for Keravnos, Tellos, or Maion. In another thread some time ago, Keravnos made it seem like it's a single syllable. So I want to know definitively.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I would suggest you people listen carefully how those units call themselves in-game when you select them. Most of the times they(at least greek and roman units) use their unit names and .. well.. I think that's how you have to pronounce them!

Also, I think this is getting too much off-topic now!

[ziegenpeter]

Come on guys, the celts were probably cleaner than the hellenes. They had soap at least and didnt just scratch the sand off their oiled up skin...

[A Very Super Market]

They didn't bath in celtland.

[Tudhaliya]

Come on guys, the celts were probably cleaner than the hellenes. They had soap at least and didnt just scratch the sand off their oiled up skin...

Maybe the European celts. All I know is that every time I take Ankyra for the first time, there's about 6000+ very large, very naked men, who are rebellious probably because the local food doesn't agree with them, and there's no public sanitation. Not even simple drainage. First thing I do is bring a hose in there as wash the whole place out.

From a historical prospective, though - the Ptolemies loved their Galatikoi Klerouchoi and settled them in the Fayuum depression. The Seleukids also used celts extensively. Did they ever grant klerouchies to their Galatians like the Ptolemies did? Or did they just mix their celts in with other military settlers and not maintain them as a distinct ethnic unit?

[Tellos Athenaios]

I'm missing the Iranian component in your Western armies, and the Hellenic/Makedonian one in your eastern armies. Assuming we're talking about armies intended to mount a campaign with; far as I know the Seleukids had little reservation to a mix & match approach. Keeping armies in the field is expensive because the people on the march don't work/supervise their fields: so it is best to distribute this burden evenly as much as possible.

EDIT: Note that those are my unfounded assumptions. I don't have history or sources with me to back things up.

[Tudhaliya]

I'm missing the Iranian component in your Western armies, and the Hellenic/Makedonian one in your eastern armies. Assuming we're talking about armies intended to mount a campaign with; far as I know the Seleukids had little reservation to a mix & match approach. Keeping armies in the field is expensive because the people on the march don't work/supervise their fields: so it is best to distribute this burden evenly as much as possible.

EDIT: Note that those are my unfounded assumptions. I don't have history or sources with me to back things up.

My reasoning is thus: if the levies need to return to their land, they shouldn't travel far on campaign. So my Western Armies fight in Asia Minor, and when they disband, the men have no more than 3 provinces or so to cross to get home. If they were out East, the anabasis would take quite a bit longer. The klerouchoi are the exception: they are Hellenes (mostly) who live in the East. So when I disband them, they go back to their estates in Sogdiana, etc. As far as I know, I don't think there is a katoikoi system that settles Easterners in the West. The only Persians outside of Persia are leftovers from the Achaemenids, like the Kappadokian cavalry of Pontus.

What are everyone's thoughts on this? Did the AS use a "regional levies defending their regions" model or a "distribute the burden" levy model? (the last option, btw, reminds me of the late Roman foederati, with the Sarmatians of Britannia)

[machinor]

Do you pronounce the -AI the same way, or is it AY then?

I always pronounce the OI as you said. Pantodapo-i (owi, oui, ooohhhhiiiihhh , you know)

but the Akontistai as Akontistai (ay)


And how to pronounce Iudaioi Taxeis - is it the "X" like pronounce it in German (or english)?

Taxeis = Takse-is / Tag-se-is ?


How do you pronounce Klerouchoi?


Hippeis are pronounced Hipp-e-is, right?

How do you pronounce the "ch" in Lonchophoroi? Like in english?

And in Kataphraktoi, the PH, is it like F or like P ? I pronounce it more as a "P"

And in Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou, I pronounce it Tho-ra-ki-tai (ay) - A-ge-ma-tos - Ba-si-li-ko-u

Would it be A-ge-ma-tos or A-ge-ma-tos ?

After all these question, the most interesting name to pronounce would be Xystophoroi ^^


Thanks in advance for answering. ;-)

Ancient Greek is mor or less pronounced as you would pronounce it in German, with the exception of some diphtongs like the ei, which are not pronounced like in German ("ei") but as two seperat vowels ("e-i"). In Attic Greek (which was the dominant form of Greek in the EB timeframe and thus the basis of the Greek voicemod) the "ph" is pronounced "p-h", "ch" is "k-h" and "th" is "t-h". Later on (late antiquity and on, I think), the ph became "f", the ch became like the "ch" in German (GERMAN, not this Klingon dialect that is spoken in Switzerland ) and the th became similar to the English "th". In the German area, it is kind of a tradition to mix Ancient Greek and New Greek pronunciations so that the words are basically pronounced like Ancient Greek but the 3 cases mentioned above are pronounced like in New Greek. This is false but the tradition kind of stayed.

So "Xystophoroi" would be pronounced "Xüsto-p'horo-i" (German pronunciation).

Agematos would be pronounced "a-GE-matos", I think.

[desert]

Anyone who's wondering about this should download the Greek Voicemod RTF from the February Preview.

It's very informative, and lists ALL the pronounciations (of battle-map commands, not unit names)