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Thread: Clan Wars Competition

  1. #1
    Senior Member Senior Member Tomisama's Avatar
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    Default Clan Wars Competition

    Clans signed for the CWC Empire Total War Multiplayer - Spring 2009 Championship


    Brethren

    XXI RAPAX

    IMPERIAL

    Round Table Knights

    VIA MILITERA

    Hermandad de la Guardia

    Gods Of Total War

    Aztec Knights

    I Normanni

    Imperators

    Imperium Polskie

    Phoinix Clan

    Sith

    Invictus

    Cacciatori


    Slots are going fast


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  2. #2
    Auspicious Interceptor Member YellowMelon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    Are you capping it at 32?

  3. #3
    Senior Member Senior Member Tomisama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    Sixteen Clans per individual competition is all that can be practically handled. The reason being the overall length of the (16 Team) contests being four to six months, and the fact that during half of that time that only four of those Clans are engaged in any combat, while the rest of the multiplayer Clan community waits. If we have enough interest it is better to start second competition, and run the two at the same time.

    We have had as many as six contests open at the same time, only four were actively being fought simultaneously, but still it shows the possibilities
    Last edited by Tomisama; 02-17-2009 at 13:18.
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  4. #4
    Auspicious Interceptor Member YellowMelon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    I'll throw this on the CCS and see if we can fill it ;)

  5. #5
    Senior Member Senior Member Tomisama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomisama View Post
    Sixteen Clans per individual competition is all that can be practically handled. The reason being the overall length of the (16 Team) contests being four to six months, and the fact that during half of that time that only four of those Clans are engaged in any combat, while the rest of the multiplayer Clan community waits. If we have enough interest it is better to start second competition, and run the two at the same time.

    We have had as many as six contests open at the same time, only four were actively being fought simultaneously, but still it shows the possibilities
    Just quoting myself to say; that this was an “off the top of my head” response.

    Now we will hear from the “middle of my head”.

    (Not sure what the “bottom of my head” is going to say in the end.)

    Empire Total War is a different animal, and it will require a different type of contest than we have ever had before. The difference is the Sea Battles, and the Clan Wars signees in general seem to agree that they want parallel General's and Admiral's competitions.

    And so that’s what we shall have!

    I am pulling off the wrapper, and starting from scratch on this one. Who knows where it will all end up. The most number of Teams we have ever had before in a single contest was 32. That was 32 times 4 players each (at the time that was workable), that sent 128 individual players to the battlefield in the first battle of the first round alone. It was long, but awesome!

    http://www.totalwar.org/index.php?st...ubaction=&id=&

    Being as this will be The Revival of Total War Multiplayer, the Clan Wars Competition will turn no one away! We will accept all Clans submitting, and as many Teams as they want to put forth, up and until the posting of the First Round Battle Assignments.

    Even then we will accept standbys until all of the Battles of the First Round have been fought. From there on out, there will be no replacement of dropped Teams, so if you are not active in the competition at that time, you will have to wait until the next one.

    The Works!

    Here’s how it will work; all signing entities will be entered into two contests, the General’s, and the Admiral’s, Competitions. Each Competition will have it’s own Battle Assignments with it’s own Match draw of their respective competitive fields.

    Because of the separation of the two, it will be possible to loose in one contest, and continue in and win the other. Or you could win both!

    Anything can happen, any which way…

    This will be great

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    Last edited by Tomisama; 02-18-2009 at 03:00.
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  6. #6
    Auspicious Interceptor Member YellowMelon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    I disagree with the notion that once a team advances to a certain stage they can be filled in by clan members who played on a separate team, as you told Grendy. i think if they register one team they should have to play on that team, otherwise clans who can field more teams have an advantage.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Senior Member Tomisama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    Quote Originally Posted by YellowMelon View Post
    I disagree with the notion that once a team advances to a certain stage they can be filled in by clan members who played on a separate team, as you told Grendy. i think if they register one team they should have to play on that team, otherwise clans who can field more teams have an advantage.
    I too was concerned about this at one time, really.

    But please consider;

    If a particular Team wins a Match and proceeds in the Competition to the next Round, why in the world would this “successful” Team choose to replace one of its “successful” Team members, with another member from an “unsuccessful” Team, that obviously had already lost in the same Competition?

    I say obviously because they are now “available”. Trust me, it would be pointless, and does not happen.

    Other factors to think about;

    Clan Wars contests are long, and stuff happens, so Teams occasionally have to fill vacated Team player spots. We have to allow for that.

    And the flip side of the advantage theory is that a Clan that enters multiple Teams will probably either have one strong Team, and weaker ones (no advantage there), or split there strong players between Teams (which is even a worse advantage ).

    Most Clans that enter multiple Teams do it to give other members experience in the competitive arena, simple as that. They still have their “first” Team, and who knows maybe they will get a surprise from their "second" string? It happens!



    The more Clan members you have raises the possibility that you will have more strong players, but in no way guarantees that this will be the case
    Last edited by Tomisama; 02-19-2009 at 12:39.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Senior Member Tomisama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    Please indulge me a little further, as I believe there is a very important point at the bottom of all this.

    Above I said;

    The more Clan members you have raises the possibility that you will have more strong players, but in no way guarantees that this will be the case.
    In fact history proves this not only not-to-be-true, but the opposite happens.

    We have had Clan with over fifty members who did not fair better than Clans who had only three or four players. In the dynamics of Clan life there seems to be a basic principal that only so many strong players will congregate in a single group. That if other similar strong players come along, that they either will not join, or will soon leave and form or join another Clan with less strong players.

    If this were not true, there would be reining Clans in our competitions, and there are not! As it works, everybody has a chance to put forward a winning Team, because it is just that, “a Team”! It is the Teams that win Team competitions, not individuals, no matter how strong of players they are.

    We have had proof of that also in the history of our community competitions.

    It’s all about teamwork


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    Last edited by Tomisama; 02-19-2009 at 12:36.
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  9. #9
    Auspicious Interceptor Member YellowMelon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    But that means clans with more people have a larger chance to win. I am looking at a clan like RTK for example, who have (over time) amalgamated several quality clans. My clan is small so we can only field one team or so, whereas RTK can field probably 2 equally good teams as us (just projecting). Now if they divide up their talent so they have 2 very good captains, now they might do fairly well. But say one clan draws Imperial who are very good, and the other draws (well I'll be politically correct and use my clan as the garbage draw), then one team will probably win and the other will lose.

    So now you have twice as good a chance of drawing a weaker first round team because of dividing and conquering. Once the one team is beat, they can draw the team captain from another team and substitute a weaker player.

    In the end I don't really care, I'm just saying that larger clans have a bigger advantage in this format than smaller clans. They have second chances to win, boost their prestige by placing, whereas my clan would have one shot.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Senior Member Tomisama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    Now up to 31 Teams, and the Russians are joining in for the first time.

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=112978

    I hear they are very good players.

    We'll see
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  11. #11
    Member Member Kalle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    CWC again at last!!!

    Kalle
    Last edited by Kalle; 02-26-2009 at 09:47.
    Playing computer strategy games of course, history, got a masters degree, outdoor living and nature, reading, movies wining and dining and much much more.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    I was wondering if it would be possible to make one major rule change to the CWC. How about scheduling matches for regular times each week like in regular sports. Meeting up seems to be one of the biggest hang-ups with recriminations over who did or didn't show up seeming to be one of the most contentious issues. So, for example, the first round matches must be played from a list of time slots set by the admins, mostly on Sunday and/or Saturday with some midweek spots open too. With some exeptions allowed, such as one rescheduling per tournament. That way we're not finishing the spring match in December. If clans can't make it on their scheduled day, they forfeit. (And my clan with few members is highly likely to hit this a time or two.) However, it really drags a lot of the fun out when matches stretch on forever. If one member can't show up, you could show leniency towards mercs and again, allow one reschedule per tournament or something. Anyway, just a thought.

    Mongo

  13. #13
    Senior Member Senior Member Tomisama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    Thanks Kalle

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmaEtLorica Mongoclint View Post
    I was wondering if it would be possible to make one major rule change to the CWC. How about scheduling matches for regular times each week like in regular sports. Meeting up seems to be one of the biggest hang-ups with recriminations over who did or didn't show up seeming to be one of the most contentious issues. So, for example, the first round matches must be played from a list of time slots set by the admins, mostly on Sunday and/or Saturday with some midweek spots open too. With some exeptions allowed, such as one rescheduling per tournament. That way we're not finishing the spring match in December. If clans can't make it on their scheduled day, they forfeit. (And my clan with few members is highly likely to hit this a time or two.) However, it really drags a lot of the fun out when matches stretch on forever. If one member can't show up, you could show leniency towards mercs and again, allow one reschedule per tournament or something. Anyway, just a thought.

    Mongo
    Hi Mongo

    Being that our contestants can come from half way around the world from each other, prearranging meeting times for all concerned just would not be practical. This is still the Clan Emissaries primary responsibility. We have, and will do all we can to support the process. Some new regulations (below) help us keep things moving.

    Amendments:

    A. No Show Rule
    If you will not be able to make an agreed to meeting time, you need to post (or have someone else post) that information on your Battle Assignment thread. This must be done a minimum of one hour before the set time.

    If you are going to be late for an agreed to meeting time, that too must be posted on your Battle Assignment thread, before the actual Match time. That way, when your opponent does not find you online, they can check here to be reassured that you are coming.

    Fail on either of these responsibilities, and your opponent can claim a default win of the Match.
    C. The Communication Rule
    “9. Each Clan must post "at least" once a week in their respective Battle Assignment thread, or they will be considered inactive. Their Team will automatically be dropped from the contest, and their Clan banned from future Clan Wars participation of this game release.”

    Even if you have nothing in particular to post, just say that you are "checking in", so that we know that you are still with us. And if necessary, any member from your Clan can post in your stead if life gets too complicated. In fact, it is highly recommended that you have an "appointed" backup Emissary, just in case they are needed.
    http://clanwars3540.yuku.com/topic/811
    Last edited by Tomisama; 03-01-2009 at 17:05. Reason: added link
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  14. #14
    Member Member KrooK's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    Sorry Tomi but this part about banning for not writing on forum is ... dead regulation.
    You have never enforced it. And thats why CWC last so long and has lower and lower position into multiplayer.

    I think Mongo has good idea. Lets think about it. For example.

    1. Clans have 2 weeks on 1 round. If they can't arrange game, there will be one day (at the end of these 2 weeks) when they have to be - no matter what happens. You (admin) can choose this day only for these 2 clans (weekend is 48 hours so there should be no problem).

    2. Clans joining competition need at least 1 substitute player. This player have to be on stream/gamespy (or whatever CA invent) during game. If someone drop - sub player join on his place without waiting.

    3. Once arranged math can be delayed/changed/et cetera only after permission of 2nd clan. You can't even ask for permission later than 2 days before game.

    4. Situation when you arranged game and then tells that you will not be on means you surrender - even if there is still time.

    5. Clans who sign more than 1 team have to write who plays where and .... have to provide substitute players. Situation when clan sign 3 teams, each with 3 players and then half of clan stop playing. This should result into banning this clan from CWC - all the teams. Very strict, will be unfair many times but clans will be thinking twice before signing 10 times when having players on 4.

    6. Before we start, CWC Admins should carefully check CWC archives and find clans who caused problems into earlier CWC. I mean clans like Saint or RTK. These type of clans should be banned before we start competition on Empire. Rule about banning for delaying game is old but was never respected. Maybe we should.

    These rules will be very strict, cause many unfair decisions but....let us finish contest this year.
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    Member Member KrooK's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    BTW I have checked list of clans into competition and now I'm really confused.
    1. I have never seen half of these clans. Did you accept clans who are now being formed?
    2. I remember that some of them already caused problems into earlier CWC. Will there be special supervision over them?
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  16. #16
    Senior Member Senior Member Tomisama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    There have been, and will be other Clan competitions with long lists of rules and regulations. But none of them has had longer or better success rate in providing more contests for more Clans and more players, than the Clan Wars Competition . As inept as it may appear at times to the participants, Clan Wars works, where many others have failed.

    I have a panel of trusted advisors that are constantly scrutinizing our contests, and contestants. We do reprimand Clans for a variety of infractions, and keep a no-admission list of those who have not responded satisfactorily to our corrections. It’s just that you do not know about it. Our major goal in all of this is community building, and we do what we can to save Clans whenever we can. Flow is our goal, not dominating control.

    We know we are not perfect, and that we are and will be a work in progress for the duration. We also know that there are complications involved with running contests of this magnitude, that even the most experienced Clan leader has no knowledge of. And we understand when they have comments and complaints, that many times we will be unable to satisfactorily answer or resolve the issues, due to those complexities.

    I always genuinely encourage folks who believe that they can do a better job, to start their own competitions. And this is not a cop out, or sarcasm, I mean it! We need many more competitions to have a strong and robust multiplayer community.


    Last edited by Tomisama; 03-02-2009 at 03:12. Reason: readability
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  17. #17
    AggonyJudgee Member Judge's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    Has Aggony not signed up for this yet ??
    AggonyJudgee


  18. #18
    Senior Member Senior Member Tomisama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    Quote Originally Posted by Judge View Post
    Has Aggony not signed up for this yet ??
    Shields put you in for one spot, but no details

    http://clanwars3540.yuku.com/topic/807?page=3
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  19. #19
    AggonyJudgee Member Judge's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    Dam that Shields :)

    Thanks Tomi, we are currently in discussion as who wants to participate and be the emissary etc.
    AggonyJudgee


  20. #20

    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    First, I would like to say that you and the admins do a wonderful job with this competition, and it is certainly well run and long lasting. I can't believe the unpaid time you guys take to organize these things and I am really looking forward to continued participation.

    I would just like to make one more plea, however, since I think Krook had a great compromise idea allowing for all the worldwide time zones. Two weeks where clans try to arrange the meet themselves, and if not accomplished, the admins pick a final match date in consultation with clan emissaries (or not).

    mongo

  21. #21
    Senior Member Senior Member Tomisama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    Ok

    I will take all of these ideas, and compare them to existing rules on the revision before this contest starts. Wherever they can be easily integrated into the existing framework, we will do that. Wherever they can not, we will establish a special administrative oversight directive to make sure we are paying attention to these possible trouble areas.

    The things I am avoiding; airing private discussions (who did what to who, and what we did about it), creating more rules than there already are (have been there and done that, it doesn’t work), and exacting too harsh of character in the administration of Clan Wars ( I still own an apology to Celtibero Lerend for once telling him to “get out”, and that will never happen again).

    I sincerely appreciate both of your efforts in bringing these matters to my attention. Sorry if I lean first to the defensive…
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  22. #22
    Member Member KrooK's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    Gah Tomisama - you did not understand me.

    I like CWC - it reminds me who I were long time ago. It was my first team online tourney and first victory.
    It has great tradition but .... its staying into same place. It reached its level about 3 years ago and then nothing....while rest keep moving. Claiming that no changes are necessary you block yourself future.

    I don't think I will be even admin of any tourney because I simply have no patience for lazy clans. Which means that I have no experience into finding solutions. But I was playing into many CWC competitions and I have experience that you haven't - participant experience. I see what is annoying players cause it annoys me. Do you think its fair that noob clan delay competitions for 3 months and then tell that "ups we have no players now, they don't like this boring game - so we quit, but next cwc we will join again".


    CWC was good tourney but it needs some changes. Total War scene is rising and need more organisation.

    gl hf
    KrooK
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  23. #23
    Senior Member Senior Member Tomisama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    Quote Originally Posted by KrooK View Post
    Gah Tomisama - you did not understand me.
    I’m working on it

    But you see there is opposition in the fact that the Admin Council have just recently agreed to wipe the slate clean for all concerned, and start over with this new game era.

    So all Clans banned have been returned to active status, and we will now all start over. We did not throw the records of past abuses away, in case we need to verify a continuing pattern of bad behavior. But everyone is going to get a fresh start, and being a little older and hopefully a little wiser, maybe they will be able to get it right this time.

    So for better or worse we have opened the Bastille, and you may see folks who have caused problems before, back in the ranks. That does not mean that we are lax in governing the situation. Nor does the fact that you do not see all of the PMs, emails, and posts on other websites, that are pretty consistently taking place behind the scenes, mean that we are not actively working to correct and guide the progress of events.

    Please know that things are almost never black or white, and we are often caught between being excessively lenient or having to destroy the very thing we are trying to build

    As I said, I will do all I can to incorporate your recommendations, and we will do our best to make this Spring’s tournament the best we have ever had!

    Thanks again Krook and Mongo. You are the reason we continue to try
    Last edited by Tomisama; 03-03-2009 at 12:47.
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  24. #24
    Member Member KrooK's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    after few games i see
    this cwc will he hard guys
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  25. #25

    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    Quote Originally Posted by Judge View Post
    Has Aggony not signed up for this yet ??
    I know that this is completely off topic, so I'm sorry. But I've always wondered this, whats with the extra g that you guys add to 'agony'. Is it like a "thing", like you know spelling an o with a 0, or is it something to do with a Shogun unit or something I'm not familiar with? Sorry for the thread derail, I've just always wondered
    Last edited by Monarch; 03-08-2009 at 22:16.

  26. #26
    Senior Member Senior Member Tomisama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    Quote Originally Posted by KrooK View Post
    after few games i see
    this cwc will he hard guys
    Please explain the problems, and lets see what we might be able to do workaround or limit their impact
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  27. #27
    Member Member KrooK's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    On Tomi
    I don't mean player behavior (they are changeable so hard to predict).
    I mean unchangeable conditions like:

    1. only 1 map for 4vs4 (can be a bit boring and tie breakers ....)
    2. no lobby chat - it will absolutely make game harder
    3. problems with joining game
    a)i'm not sure yet (checking it with clannies) but having english version i suffer problems with joining polish language versions. this bug occured at mtw 2 and i'm afraid its still same problem
    b)generally its hard to join game
    4. another problem - if someone quit game, there is no quit communication (or i just did not spectate it), only information about result

    Of course I'm talking from land perspective but im not sailor. :)
    John Thomas Gross - liar who want put on Poles responsibility for impassivity of American Jews during holocaust

  28. #28

    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmaEtLorica Mongoclint View Post
    I would just like to make one more plea, however, since I think Krook had a great compromise idea allowing for all the worldwide time zones. Two weeks where clans try to arrange the meet themselves, and if not accomplished, the admins pick a final match date in consultation with clan emissaries (or not).

    mongo
    So whatever date the admins pick, players are supposed to ignore all their real life responsibilities (which can include stuff like children, work, school etc.) and play Total War?
    Last edited by Monarch; 03-12-2009 at 17:24.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    Quote Originally Posted by Monarch View Post
    I know that this is completely off topic, so I'm sorry. But I've always wondered this, whats with the extra g that you guys add to 'agony'. Is it like a "thing", like you know spelling an o with a 0, or is it something to do with a Shogun unit or something I'm not familiar with? Sorry for the thread derail, I've just always wondered
    Aaah, good question. The reason behind the extra g is that AggonyAce, the founder of the clan mispelled 'Agony' as 'Aggony' when registering the clan on the Shogun ladders and for some reason it stuck. Now we wouldn't have it any other way.
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  30. #30

    Default Re: Clan Wars Competition

    Quote Originally Posted by AggonyDuck View Post
    Aaah, good question. The reason behind the extra g is that AggonyAce, the founder of the clan mispelled 'Agony' as 'Aggony' when registering the clan on the Shogun ladders and for some reason it stuck. Now we wouldn't have it any other way.
    Ah ok, cool

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