No excuse to not buy a classic.

[Puzz3D]

Creative Assembly changed the port number for each game. So, if you had STW you didn't see WE/MI games and vica versa. There were even different online rating sites for STW and WE/MI, and a player's rating appeared next to his name in the WE/MI foyer whereas it wasn't shown in STW. Only a few players, such as the Bear clan, stayed with STW while most moved to WE/MI. Most of the players that moved to WE/MI left rather than return to STW because the online community would remain drastically reduced in number since new players would naturally get the new game. WE/MI destroyed the STW community. It was inevitable. Most players move to the newer game regardless of whether it's better or worse. So, you have to hope that the new game is better than the old game or else you are stuck playing the inferior game, and the whole time you are playing the inferior game you remember the better experience of playing the better game.

[Togakure]

Sad, but true. I've never understood that. I'd rather play an older, better game that I like with a small group of friends, than a newer, crappier version of that game with the greater public. Meh, that's why I never played RTW, M2TW and probably won't try ETW, and would still play STW, MTW/VI, and mods like SamWars, SP or online. Running against the grain, as usual.

[Puzz3D]

Masa,

You are right about the Hojo Horde problem in STW v1.12 which I solve by playing a faction within striking distance of Hojo. That limits which factions I can play, but it gains the advantage of playing against the slightly better STW v1.12 tactical AI than the WE/MI v1.02 tactical AI. I also don't have to contend with the unbalanced units such as kensai that were added to WE/MI. Yes you can remove those added units, but very few people who buy WE/MI will bother to do that. The biggest problem in WE/MI is the imbalance of the guns. Muskets are relatively cheap in WE/MI at 250 koku, but so powerful that they should be the most expensive unit in the game. They cost 175 koku in STW but are also much weaker, and they don't shoot in the rain which is actually a mistake but a fortuitous one for the gameplay.

At the time, I paid $30 for STW and it was the best game I ever bought. I paid $40 for WE/MI, and was extremely disappointed that I had to pay more for a game that was inferior in tactical playbalance. Creative Assembly ripped off the American market by refusing to sell the MI expansion (which cost $15) in the USA. STW had unprecedented playbalance for such a complex tactical game, and I thought each subsequent installment released by Creative Assembly would be even better in that regard. However, they not only couldn't maintain the playbalance in subsequent releases, they intentionally relegated tactical playbalance to a low priority. Well, that kills the gameplay experience for me since, being a high rated chess player (chess being an extremely well balanced game with deep tactical play), I'm aware of nuances in the quality of the tactical gameplay.

[Togakure]

I hear ya, Puzz. I did that too in original--took the Hojo out so they couldn't horde. Usually had to take out the Uesugi too as they horded sometimes also.

The most attractive MI/WE feature for me is the added campaign scenarios. I really, really enjoy those. If I get bored of one, I move to another; it added a whole lotta game time for me.

Early on I used guns when playing Single Player WE/MI and yes, they are powerful and cheap. But after the first year of playing I'd had my fill and stopped using them pretty much, preferring to field archers instead. It's too easy to route the AI with guns, and I prefer a faster, more active and aggressive battle (heh). I really don't like to sit and shoot much (though admittedly sometimes it's necessary, particularly in MP against good shooters like that dratted gun lover CBR, gah!).

My campaigns are usually finished long before muskets are available if I start in 1530 (though I'm not nearly as fast as some of these guys who can finish in less than ten game years). Even in the later campaigns I don't often use them unless I decide to play a turtling gun game for kicks (which is rare). I do sometimes use an arquebusier paired with a yari ahsigaru unit and shinobi as garrison because they are cheap, and also sometimes to bolster numbers at a key choke point to discourage attack. But when it comes to a battle, I don't usually select them, and if I do, it's never more than two units. I prefer archers even for bridge battles because their range is superior. Tactics make up for the limited ammo.

Did you find the AI building a lot of guns in WE/MI? I don't see a lot of them in my games, and by the time they show up, they're munchies for my ravenous cavalry. The AI seems to build a ton of archers, YS, monks, and some YC and CA in my games.

In regard to the "fantasy" units, I don't build kensai, and in the majority of the games I've played, neither does the AI. In one scenario, I do use battlefield ninja--1580 Tokugawa, because that faction starts with nine units of them. I group them all together without any other type of unit and use them as a special ops raiding force. The Tokugawa are pinched at the start of that campaign and require careful management and timing to be successful unless the AI does some crazy things with the other factions. I use the ninja in that campaign to raid and draw armies, and to sack provinces for much-needed koku. The AI very rarely builds them, so that's not a big problem as i see it.

I train geishas only to counter the threat of AI geishas. Nowadays the AI rarely gets to that point; we've taken out the opposition before they can develop the infrastructure necessary.

The one MI/WE unit I do use frequently is the Naginata Cav, probably because I got so used to using them in MP. In SP, I don't use them exclusively over Yari Cav, tending to mix in one or two units as reserve for running down routing infantry, with YC and a CA or two for skirmishing and flanking.

I think a good point to make here is that, despite it's weaknesses, a player can adjust his game to compensate for them and still get some great entertainment out of WE/MI, just as you did to handle the horde issue.

CA's emphasis on glitz, overwhelming, unnecessary detail, and distracting variety over solid tactical war-gaming is the primary reason why I haven't bought or played any of it's games after MTW/VI. The shibumi of STW was lost. My imagination is not so weak that I need pretty graphics to stimulate it; I need solid, balanced tactical play in order to enjoy the game. The graphics in STW and MTW/VI were and still are plenty fine for me. I, too, am sorely disappointed in CA's direction, but ... they went where the money is. They didn't get mine, but so many others eat that pretty stuff up. I think a lot of players just want that eye candy and the rush of feeling powerful and skillful. That the game play actually requires much skill or offers much diversity in tactics and strategy is not an issue for today's average gamer, I think.

I paid about $60 for the two versions. I would guess conservatively that I've played 2000 hours of STW since it came out. Considering the cost per hour of entertainment that's quite a bargain in my book, when I stop and think about what I've paid to watch films, over half of which weren't worth the money or time spent. All in all I'm very happy with what I got for my $60.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Puzz....I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, to the extent of modifying troop stats to be as close as they can to the original version. But not having the original version to compare the WE edition to, my opinion is probably of limited value in that respect.

But what Masamune has to say holds true for me.......I've gotten many, many hours of enjoyment out of STW/WE and it was well worth the money I payed for it.

I think the addition of the fantasy units makes for a fun diversion when one gets tired of the same-old, same-old...........I don't normally play with kensei or bfn, and even when playing a 'serious' campaign, I only make judicious use of things like muskets and Nag Cav. They make up only a small portion of my armies in nearly every campaign except for the late Oda Campaign.

All-in-all, if anyone asked me for my opinion to buy or not to buy WE, I'd give them a thumbs up.

Just my 2cents..........