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[chairman]

While I do not profess to have anywhere near the knowledge or experience of Keravnos, Paullus or Meinpanzer, I feel that there is a certain amount of common sense that can be applied to this issue. What is defined as Thureophoroi or Thorakitai, instead of two discrete categories, is actually sets of many points on a continuam of armor or lack thereof, with Thureophoroi being towards the lighter and Thorakitai being towards the heavier, but with a mix.

So here is a possible analysis of the continuam.

Peltastai: javelins, pelte, sword, with or without: simple helmet, greaves, linen or leather thorax.

Thureophoroi: javelins or spear, thureos, sword, with or without: simple helmet, greaves, linen or leather thorax.

Thorakitai: javelins or spear, thureos, sword, helmet, greaves, & one the following: linen, leather or metal plate thorax or mail or muscle cuirass.

So there is an overlap between Thureophoroi and Thorakitai, which is only natural.

This is just my concept based on what I read in this and other threads and my understanding of Hellenistic warfare. If any of this doesn't fit, please correct me so that I can better understand.

Chairman

[geala]

The problem is that many pictures of soldiers with a thureos show them without armour, but with helmet and spear (and sometimes javelins). I would see them as heavy infantry because they were able to fight the enemy toe to toe in the same manner I would count a naked Celt with sword and scutum as heavy infantry. You don't necessarily need armour for it.

I would prefer these thoureophoroi would have no armour in EB, too. With armour I would name them thorakitai. And I would give the peltastai a round pelte with less defence and slightly less melee stats or even get rid of them. I always have the problem to distinguish the peltastai from the thoureophoroi and decide what unit I shall use. In the end I nearly never ever use thoureophoroi because peltastai have more or less the same performance in melee and can shower the enemy with javelins.

[MeinPanzer]

While I do not profess to have anywhere near the knowledge or experience of Keravnos, Paullus or Meinpanzer, I feel that there is a certain amount of common sense that can be applied to this issue. What is defined as Thureophoroi or Thorakitai, instead of two discrete categories, is actually sets of many points on a continuam of armor or lack thereof, with Thureophoroi being towards the lighter and Thorakitai being towards the heavier, but with a mix.

So here is a possible analysis of the continuam.

Peltastai: javelins, pelte, sword, with or without: simple helmet, greaves, linen or leather thorax.

Thureophoroi: javelins or spear, thureos, sword, with or without: simple helmet, greaves, linen or leather thorax.

Thorakitai: javelins or spear, thureos, sword, helmet, greaves, & one the following: linen, leather or metal plate thorax or mail or muscle cuirass.

So there is an overlap between Thureophoroi and Thorakitai, which is only natural.

This is just my concept based on what I read in this and other threads and my understanding of Hellenistic warfare. If any of this doesn't fit, please correct me so that I can better understand.

Chairman

This argument doesn't work for the very reason I posted earlier - why would a thureophoros wearing armour be anything but a thorakites? As far as we can tell, what made a thorakites a thorakites and not a thurephoros was that he wore a thorax. The evidence we have makes it apparent that this is a binary opposition - if you carry a thureos and don't wear a thorax, you are a thureophoros; if you carry and thureos and do wear a thorax, you are a thorakites.

But from our evidence it's apparent that the normal equipment of a thureophoros was javelins or spear, thureos, sword, and helmet. The standard equipment of a thorakites was javelins or spear, thureos, sword, helmet, and a metal muscled or an organic cuirass. I can only think of one, very exceptional example of a representation of a soldier equipped with thureos as well as greaves.