Clever AI

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Yes, but at some point the scripts that lock down the AI shut off. The AI almost always gets all their infantry down to the town hall in time to meet the British infantry. If they dragged along even half their artillery they could shoot down the "alley" created by the hills and really hurt the player.

[Polemists]

Yes but if the Ai dragged those artillery peices along wouldn't you just ride them down with calvary?

Again I don't think this is a "AI" issue, I think this is a historical battle issue.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

It might be they get frozen by the script through to the end, but I mean they should deploy them at least behind the line of infantry. Lemme see if I can do this with ascii...


..........VVV<-- where they should put the guns
.....====== <-- US inf |||| <-- this is the court house, which is right on the corner of a foresty ridge, so you can't flank it to the right. The AI puts its line infantry to the left (my left) most of the time, sometimes a little closer to me than the court house.

......====== <-- my inf
......///////// <-- my inf/cav/guns

But their guns stay way off in the corner where they start, so they can't do anything. If they used their dragoons to keep cav from running around their line, they could set up shop and blast away. And it'd be better than what they did last time I played - sit and get shot at by my artillery. I eventually advanced because I felt sorry for the thing.

[Polemists]

but isn't one of the purposes of this scenario to show you how to use counter artillery fire?

So wouldn't that function cease to work if they were moving there artillery all about?

[quadalpha]

quad, I've noticed the AI doesn't move their arty well.

I usually move my entire army through the second ford (no sense using half measures, I figure). Their arty can continue to harass (but mostly miss) my army the entire way - the batteries are blocked by hills but continue to fire. I've only ever seen it move the arty until after the real fighting by the town hall was effectively over. Then I just mop them up.

Hehe, I have to admit they only got their arty in position because I was typically slow and cautious.

(BTW, Alex, where in Jersey do you go to college, if you don't mind my asking?)

[Beskar]

I pretty much had the same ease as ares, allthough I just set out the targets to my fleet at the start and then spent my time micromanaging my 1st rate for the rest of the battle. The surprising thing was I won with no ships lost and minimal damage to all but my admirals ship. CA either did a realy good job on the players naval AI or screwed up the enemy AI when I won a battle without doing anything with 5 out of the 6 ships.

Hahaha, exactly the same as me!

It's weird seeing people say it's hard as I basically do nothing and come out unharmed.

[Sisco Americanus]

It might be they get frozen by the script through to the end, but I mean they should deploy them at least behind the line of infantry. Lemme see if I can do this with ascii...


..........VVV<-- where they should put the guns
.....====== <-- US inf |||| <-- this is the court house, which is right on the corner of a foresty ridge, so you can't flank it to the right. The AI puts its line infantry to the left (my left) most of the time, sometimes a little closer to me than the court house.

......====== <-- my inf
......///////// <-- my inf/cav/guns

But their guns stay way off in the corner where they start, so they can't do anything. If they used their dragoons to keep cav from running around their line, they could set up shop and blast away. And it'd be better than what they did last time I played - sit and get shot at by my artillery. I eventually advanced because I felt sorry for the thing.

Well, technically their artillery force is vastly superior to yours, so I would think in this situation the AI should feel quite content in engaging in an artillery dual. I mean, they outgun the player in this scenario what... two to one? Three to one? I forget...

Of course, that doesn't excuse the lack of redeployment once the jig is up and it's clear the U.S. position has been comprimised. I wouldn't be surprised if their stuck there due to scripting, though. Other factors may be at play as well; given that they are foot artillery and yours are horse artillery, perhaps the AI is a little more reluctant to put them on the move-- maybe they are slow or something.... I don't know. Also, perhaps I'm wrong, but aren't their pieces all 24-lb. howitzers? Given that howitzers are more or less made for indirect firing, perhaps that would explain why the AI would be content to allow them to sit in position and fire away at targets without a direct line of sight. Perhaps I'm just grasping at straws....


Anyway, I'm looking forward to finding out more when the full game comes out.

[Polemists]

I think it's different for everyone, it's like talking to someone who plays M MTW2 vs someone who plays VH MTW2.

The VH guy will tell you how easy it is, how they never have losses, yada yada, the M guy will tell you it's fun, but losses, have lost general, etc.

Different people play with different styles. Long as ppl are having fun it's all good :)

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

but isn't one of the purposes of this scenario to show you how to use counter artillery fire?

So wouldn't that function cease to work if they were moving there artillery all about?

It's supposed to be unscripted after a certain point. And I don't think that's the purpose (or at least not entirely). I think it shows more how important the vertical aspect of terrain is in thinking about artillery. And counter-battery fire should have to take into account moving targets - no reason to keep your artillery where it will do no damage or where it will be blasted by the enemy's superior amount of arty.

I dunno, just seems like the AI has an opportunity to do a lot of damage with artillery that it really isn't using.

Quad - I'm at NJIT. You from the area?

Sisco - I agree I guess. At the start, sure, they could sit around and plug away. But after I move through the unguarded ford, they can't hit me for 90% of the terrain there. And if they're howitzers, they aren't angling high enough to do any damage.

[Polemists]

I think it is unscripted at a certain point but I think the Ai still has a tactic to use during the script.

I don't know but just reading I don't buy the Ai is just being stupid and refuses to move it's artillery. It moves it in MTW2 and I think it will move it in ETW I think this is just either a bug or a scripting issue.

Just my opinon of course.

[Sir Beane]

If I might jump into the discissuion guys, I'd like to mention that the Americans will move their artillery eventually.

In a battle I fought against them were I sent my entire force to the second ford, I was advancing very slowly and cautiously. The Americans prededed to move their arty up next to their general. and shell me as soon as I got within range. They seem to only do this if you move very slowly though.

So it is possible for them to redeploy the arty, but they don't often do it fast enough to actually harm the player.

[Daevyll]

Stakes can kill infantry now? Oh God. I still have nightmares from the time when I managed to run both my King, my Heir and a ten star general onto stakes. Not once, but twice. It was horrible.

The worst part is I had won the battle and was chasing down routing men.

The even more worse part was that the stakes were my own. And the enemy didn't even have cavalry.

Thank god. I am not alone...

[screwtype]

Also, I had General Washington suicide charge my Dragoons all on his lonesome...

LMAO, that was a problem with Shogun. All this time and they still haven't fixed it yet

[Thermal]

Different people play with different styles. Long as ppl are having fun it's all good :)

Well it was so sensitive and laggy, certain parts were more a chore than fun.

[ratbarf]

REally? All of it was fun, I just thought that George Washington shouldn't have gone down so easily and or realized that he had lost and boot it out of there instead of trying to save the day by chargeing my Grenadiers behind the stakes I set up.... (That actually happened...) And I had already set it to VH in the text thing that was linked to earlier.

As for naval battles, I still can't seem to do anything that makes me win the French just always bugger up my sails then Im toast as my conga line falls all over eachother.

[Bob the Insane]

They had been in a standard formation about 4 ranks deep. Now, they respond to my advance by spreading out into a single rank, as wide as possible, and THEN lay stakes at this maximum width. Then they return to a more standard formation, now safely behind a really wide barrier of stakes that also happens to block off almost the entire valley (though I'm still not sure whether they were intentionally standing in the narrowest part, or just happened to be there...until they spanned it with stakes there was still plenty of room to have encircled them anyway)

This is not so much a function of the AI being clever rather than a feature of the special ability...


Try with your own light infantry,whatever shape they are in they will exapnad to maximum width before deploying the stakes and then return to their original formation...

[quadalpha]

I just had a decisive victory (:)) where the Americans decided to come across the ford they were defending, since I was spending a lot of time getting my horse arty to fire properly. I'd split my foot in the way the scenario suggested, and had already beaten off their dragoons and minutemen who were coming for my arty (set up right on the riverbank). They then sent all their foot in column against the Hessians and light infantry that I was protecting from their arty on the reverse slope, so I formed line and was wondering how I could hold off six units of line infantry with three Hessians, when I realised that they were actually going for my arty again. Two of their line inf got to my arty, while the rest was tied up by my skirmishing light inf, Hessians, and dragoons, and were finished off with a bit of help from the hussars. I'd let the ones that went for my arty go, since I'd been having trouble with them all day and decided they weren't worth it (they have a great deal of trouble limbering and unlimbering, and generally not following orders or shooting each other), but I thought I might as well switch to canister and blast away. The surprising thing is, I gave the order when they were already engaged in melee, and not only managed to get volleys off, but also routed the two line inf with two volleys. Anyway, decisive victory achieved mostly without my main foot, which I couldn't be bothered to move from the other ford.

(Alex: I went to college in central Jersey, near a certain battleground. :))

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

heh, my brother is going there now. You ever see the re-enactment there?

[Polemists]

There are alot of AI threads but I still prefer this one


So for the land battle.

When I first played it I tried the old ctrl-a attack, and got slaughtered. Enemy put longrifles in tree's, cut off my artillery with his his calvary and cut my men apart with thier cannons, all the while encircling me. I was quite impressed.

Second battle I divided my guys up into 3. Scots and Hessians and Cannons Center. 2 long guards and calavary on right ford. 2 long guards and whatever else go around the long way to the left ford.

The AI made three seperate pushes I was impressed. They sent long rifles against my left ford, 1 unit of minute men against center, and everything else at the majority of my forces at the main ford to the right.

Part 1:
Right Ford:

After lots of bloody fighting in the ford and shotting the americans charged and melee combat began. It was very close as the outnumbered me and one of my units routed. Luckily I had Grenadiers using gernades to keep the americans from advancing to far.


Center:

The one unit of minute men ended up losing out to the scots, and my cannons managed to take out all but one of the american's cannons. With things secure I moved that force to resecure the main force. Sadly the americans saw this and used thier last cannon to take out one of my hessians leaving only 2 units and 1 cannon to reinforce.

I sent the highlanders to reinforce my longuards.



Left Ford:

My longguards, with held of highlanders, beat back the longrifles and cause them to route.



Part 2:

Right Ford:
Reinforcements from Center arrive and we hold the Americans and begin to drive them back. I pull my men out of the melee combat and begin a shooting match again where the brits dominate. Help of my general and are new cannon arrivals the americans begin to get slaughtered. They move a group of minute men up to the hill above the ford to cover the others who try to fall back out of the Ford.


Center:
Moved to right ford


Left Ford:

Judging the battle lost the general, calavry, one unit of minute men and the artillery cannon moves to the left, trying to escape the main battle at the right ford. My long guards are there to cut them off and finish them off.


Part 3:

My long guards finish off the general and my main force takes the hill and wipes out the remaining americans.


VICTORY :)

A very intense very enjoyable battle. Can't wait for full game.

[quadalpha]

Seems that discussion in this thread is migrating to the "bad AI" thread.

(Oh, I didn't know there were re-enactments.)

[Polemists]

Actually I just posted how I found the AI clever and how good it did :)

[Sir Beane]

Seems that discussion in this thread is migrating to the "bad AI" thread.

(Oh, I didn't know there were re-enactments.)

Personally I think the A.I was rather good, after running a few experiments. A lot of people in the 'Bad A.I' thread are complaining about poor A.I after only playing one battle.

The A.I seems to vary from good to bad depending on what tactics the player uses, and I still think it might have something to o with the scripting involved. Especially because it seems loathe to move its cannons from their starting positions.

[screwtype]

calavry

A lot of folks seem to have trouble with this word. The word is cavalry. Note that the "v" comes before the "l". An easy way to remember the spelling is to think of the abbreviation: cav.

Hope that helps

[Sir Beane]

A lot of folks seem to have trouble with this word. The word is cavalry. Note that the "v" comes before the "l". An easy way to remember the spelling is to think of the abbreviation: cav.

Hope that helps

I imagine it was a typographical error rather than a spelling mistake. Especially because he spells it incorrectly twice in two different ways .

[Phog_of_War]

I posted this in the Poor AI thread because i didnt see this one at the time.



The AI has been ok IMO. I lost the first battle even after reading up on the Brandywine battle.

My second fight I won, hewever it was a Phyrric victory. I used the historical movements of the British army. Both General Howe and Washington were KIA. Howe was killed out of hand from a lucky musket ball and Washington was killed by a well aimed cannon volley.


I won the third fight when I forded the alternate crossing with my entire force. We both set up in the field to the US rear and had a merry firefight. Only thing is that the AI did not move its cannon at the first crossing to engage me. If it had my victory would have been in question.


I tried a full frontal assault on the main American force. Put my cannons on a small ridge to the British right with Dragoons for protection. Everything was going swimmingly until I crossed to the opposite bank. My line inf and Hessians had crossed and made their way forward a bit. My Hussars were following close behind the foot inf. Suddenly, the cannon on the left, and on the ridge to the right, let loose with canister shot at the same time and turned my Hussars and their mounts into finely chopped hamburger. 2 full Cav units knocked down to a 9 and 13 man unit.

After that the US forces pulled back to the house and put up another fight. I did win eventually but took VERY heavy casualties.

I have also had the AI counterattack me from the hill a time or two.


My 2 cents, but I think the AI is much improved from some of the crazy stuff I saw in Med 1, Rome and Med 2. Med2 not so much tho. The best AI of all of them IMO was Shogun. Sometimes I think that CA went a little too fast developing the last few tatical AI, but in the end they are trying to keep up with the demands/requests of their consumers (us) and their Management. On the bright side, I bet they are already working on a patch and with Steam it auto-updates.

[Phog_of_War]

A lot of folks seem to have trouble with this word. The word is cavalry. Note that the "v" comes before the "l". An easy way to remember the spelling is to think of the abbreviation: cav.

Hope that helps

OT: I also see that people seem to have a problem with 'rout' and route'.

Rout is the action of a disorginized retreat

Route is the march that the victor took the rout the enemy army. /OT



Anyway, yes the AI is much improved over previous builds, as i stated in my post above. I have already been plesantly suprised a few times by the actions it took. Weather it was laying out stakes to cover that valley they retreat into. Or a counterattack launched from the wooded rise next to the garrisonable building.

[Barkhorn1x]

The even more worse part was that the stakes were my own. And the enemy didn't even have cavalry.

Oh man, you must have felt like @#$%. That is too funny.

[quadalpha]

Bah, uniform spelling is imposed by the capital-owning classes to repress the people!

[Strategy]

The A.I seems to vary from good to bad depending on what tactics the player uses, and I still think it might have something to o with the scripting involved. Especially because it seems loathe to move its cannons from their starting positions.

I have to say that I don't buy the scripting thing at all.

I'm pretty sure the AI doesn't move its artillery because it actually thinks it can hit units from where it stands (i.e., it has almost no understanding of the terrain at all).

In my first 4 battles, I just ignored the lower ford and took the left hook around the american position. In every one of those battles, the AI moved every one of its artillery batteries - except the leftmost one, which can "hit" (or thinks it can hit) your units almost all over the battlefield from its position. In every one of those battles, the AI redeployed its artillery into new ineffective positions, except once when it deployed its artillery between the houses together with its line infantry (unfortunately, in that instance I had both of my batteries already deployed, and I shot it to pieces long before it managed to position itself and unlimber).

In the 5th and 6th battle, I left the dragoon unit hiding behind the farmhouse close to where the british army deploys to "cover" the ford. Result: only one of the american artillery batteries (the one farthest away) redeploys... all the others stick to their positions bombarding the dragoons. The dragoons spent pretty much the entire battle standing dismounted behind the hill, without suffering a single casaulty to the unit (though I think they did lose 3 horses), being shot at the entire time by 2-4 batteries while the rest of the British army pounded the US infantry to dust.

The artillery (both your own and the AI) auto-targetting also does some very stupid things. In one battle, I had my artillery pivot in their positions to fire roundshot through my hussar unit that was standing next to it, simply because it had decided that the far distant AI battery was a far bigger threat than the much nearer american infantry. The best, though, was one battle where I witnessed the AI artillery sending roundshot through their own stationary dragoon unit in order to try and hit some far distant enemy unit of mine. The dragoons routed, after having 80% of their numbers wiped out.

[ratbarf]

The best, though, was one battle where I witnessed the AI artillery sending roundshot through their own stationary dragoon unit in order to try and hit some far distant enemy unit of mine. The dragoons routed, after having 80% of their numbers wiped out.

I have never had this happen though I have had the arty redeploy once. Personally I think the dumbest thing the AI does is set up stakes facing away from their units... George Washington died on his own stakes trying to reach my understrength unit of Hessiens.