Poll: The EU's Galileo global positioning program is to me:

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 88

Thread: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

  1. #1
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Forever adrift
    Posts
    5,668

    Default citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/c...f-control.html (it is the right article link)

    Chinese pull a fast one in space race as EU’s 'pigs with gold trotters’ remain earthbound

    There has been another wondrously bizarre twist to the unending farce of the EU’s favourite vanity project, Galileo. This is the multi-billion euro programme designed to give the EU its own rival to the US GPS satellite system, which provides a free positioning fix to ships, aircraft, Satnav owners and other users all over the world.

    Although I have regularly reported on this joke project since 2001, almost the only time it has excited much media interest in Britain was when, in 2007, the late Gwyneth Dunwoody described it as “not one pig flying in orbit, this is a herd of pigs with gold trotters, platinum tails and diamond eyes”. The Commons Transport Committee, of which she was chairman, had produced a report suggesting that Galileo would cost British taxpayers at least £1.7 billion, and was so pointless that it might as well be scrapped.

    No episode in the story was more curious, however, than the deal signed in October 2003, whereby the Chinese government agreed to pay 200 million euros for a 20 per cent share in Galileo, to be spent on developing infrastructure and ground stations based on European technological know-how. The EU was over the moon, thinking that this would cement in China as its partner in a project always partly intended for military use, allowing it both to operate independently of the US.

    A first sign that all was not well came when the Chinese, having got on with their part of the deal, using EU know-how, were shut out from top-level management of Galileo on security grounds. But, having obtained the technical information they wanted, they have powered ahead with a satellite system of their own, Compass. They are now so far advanced, and Galileo has slipped so far behind schedule, it seems certain that the Chinese satellites will be in place long before the EU system.

    Furthermore the Chinese now plan to operate on the same wavelengths that the EU had earmarked for Galileo. Since their satellites will get there first, they will be able to lay claim to ownership of them. The EU would thus only be able to use the wavelengths with Chinese permission.

    Having robbed the Common Agricultural Fund of

    €1 billion in a desperate effort to pay the soaring bill for Galileo, the Europeans are said to be “very angry”, since this removes just about the last conceivable excuse for proceeding with their absurd project. The Americans, having followed the whole saga with bemused irritation, are said to be laughing themselves silly.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  2. #2
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Forever adrift
    Posts
    5,668

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    option 2.

    a total waste of money.
    a typical EU example of the ridiculous corporatist methods to build industry.
    funny to me, china and america as we stand on the sidelines and mock the EU's incompetent vanity project.
    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 02-22-2009 at 12:36.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  3. #3
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    The wheel is fine. It's round, it works.

  4. #4
    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Athens, Greece
    Posts
    2,713

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    At the moment, the US can withdraw GPS capability at a whim. This means that if the US and EU interests differ in a certain region, the EU will not have GPS capability. This is clearly unacceptable.

    Even if there is never a direct confrontation with the US and even if we assume that we will alsways share the same geopolitical goals (not true even today) we need to take into account the emergence of new Superpowers (China and Russia) that may eventually surpass the US at the economic and consequently the military level. Therefore we cannot rely on the US for strategic defensive projects and need to maintain independent capability.

    If we do not, as Europeans, establish strong military capabilities we will be drawn into the game of superpowers when a new cold war emerges.

    True enough the project is late but think about it. It faced a major restructuring 1.5 year ago (officially the current galileo project was launched in July 2008 - OH MY 6 MONTHS INTO IT ALREADY WE ARE SO LATE!!!) and now we have to deal with the recession. At its current form it is planned to be completed in 2013 and I do not think 5 years is all that bad.

    Of course the writer of the article, who practically wanted to just compose a polemic for the gullible, did not even bother to mention that the Chinese allready have a navigation system (geostationary - for defensive military purposes) and that they requested to enter Gallileo for commercial purposes. Then they decided to expand their own system for commercial purposes and left Gallileo.

    The strong objections of various US sources of power towards Galileo should give you a good idea about why such articles are written (And how they are possibly funded)

    As for 'robbing the CAF' ... well...lol....where do you come from mate? Mars? Our farmers here are more well fed that our cattle! About time they are robbed a bit...


    In brief: Late or not, expensive or not we need it. Even if the Yanks do not want us to have it
    Αξιζει φιλε να πεθανεις για ενα ονειρο, κι ας ειναι η φωτια του να σε καψει.

    http://grumpygreekguy.tumblr.com/

  5. #5
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,617

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    Meh, if the US takes away GPS from us (well, how could they reliably do that anyway? encryption? different signals? they'd have to supply new receivers to everybody in the US and some would prolly leak anyway...) then we can just shoot down their GPs satellites and say if we can't have it, they can't have it either.
    Since I think that ain't not happening anyway, I'm not really worried and think this is rather redundant and a great way to sell new hardware.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  6. #6
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Posts
    10,415

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    Go for it, sez little old me. Just don't crash your satellite into my satellite

    ESA article on "why Galileo"
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  7. #7
    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Athens, Greece
    Posts
    2,713

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post
    Go for it, sez little old me. Just don't crash your satellite into my satellite

    ESA article on "why Galileo"
    Nah, our European slim culturally refined satellites could never damage your American fat lumbering redneck satellites.
    Αξιζει φιλε να πεθανεις για ενα ονειρο, κι ας ειναι η φωτια του να σε καψει.

    http://grumpygreekguy.tumblr.com/

  8. #8
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by rasoforos View Post
    At the moment, the US can withdraw GPS capability at a whim. This means that if the US and EU interests differ in a certain region, the EU will not have GPS capability. This is clearly unacceptable.
    Who cares about GPS our radar systems are much more advanced we can shoot a pimple from a flies butt, and why would our hamburger eating buddies go nasty on us, our mucas all fine.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxatbKEHo3Y

  9. #9
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Posts
    10,415

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by rasoforos View Post
    Nah, our European slim culturally refined satellites could never damage your American fat lumbering redneck satellites.
    So, it's Maserati v Ford pickup truck. LOL.

    Good luck with the financing though. Really.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  10. #10
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Forever adrift
    Posts
    5,668

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post
    Go for it, sez little old me. Just don't crash your satellite into my satellite

    ESA article on "why Galileo"
    interesting, but odd that they bang on and on about it being under civilian control as if that was a good thing. galileo will be under political control which will have much the same result. if the system needs to be switched off for civvies it will be switched off, regardless of whether it is GPS or galileo.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  11. #11
    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Athens, Greece
    Posts
    2,713

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Who cares about GPS our radar systems are much more advanced we can shoot a pimple from a flies butt, and why would our hamburger eating buddies go nasty on us, our mucas all fine.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxatbKEHo3Y

    Radar makes sure you see the enemy's missiles before they go boom

    GPS makes sure your missiles go boom where they are supposed to (yet another reason we cannot rely on GPS because US missiles seem to go boom allover the place)

    Well it is a different thing really Radars and GPS.
    Αξιζει φιλε να πεθανεις για ενα ονειρο, κι ας ειναι η φωτια του να σε καψει.

    http://grumpygreekguy.tumblr.com/

  12. #12
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by rasoforos View Post
    Radar makes sure you see the enemy's missiles before they go boom
    The oldies, this is the most advanced surveillance system in the world. And why are we worrying about the US turning foul in the first place.

  13. #13
    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Athens, Greece
    Posts
    2,713

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    The oldies, this is the most advanced surveillance system in the world. And why are we worrying about the US turning foul in the first place.
    For the opposite reason as to why were were not worried that Germany would play tricks on us after WW I.
    Αξιζει φιλε να πεθανεις για ενα ονειρο, κι ας ειναι η φωτια του να σε καψει.

    http://grumpygreekguy.tumblr.com/

  14. #14
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by rasoforos View Post
    For the opposite reason as to why were were not worried that Germany would play tricks on us after WW I.
    The west is as solid as a rock. We can count on the GPS system, and if we can't we don't need it, this is a pet-project overstretching any real use. Galileo is more advanced yes, more advanced to be able to fight sticks and stones.
    Last edited by Fragony; 02-22-2009 at 14:06.

  15. #15
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Forever adrift
    Posts
    5,668

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    could you elaborate on that?

    i am really unsure as to what the US has done to engender such distrust in europe.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  16. #16
    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Athens, Greece
    Posts
    2,713

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    It has planed a lot of nasty dictatorships in Europe in the previous cold war. <-- That is my own reason of distrust. A fine country it is but it has the tendency to spawn McCarthies and Kissingers when cornered.

    But for the sake of the argument let's say that it has done nothing wrong ever. This does not mean that we should be caught with our pants down if attacked (or if our western ally fails). Next time the US and (Insert superpower here) decide to divide Europe I wanna be able to tell em to stuff it where the sun don't shine
    Αξιζει φιλε να πεθανεις για ενα ονειρο, κι ας ειναι η φωτια του να σε καψει.

    http://grumpygreekguy.tumblr.com/

  17. #17
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Posts
    10,415

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    Independence of resources is always a good thing. I think Europe spends/wastes more time, money, and goodwill than it has to, guarding against imagined American hegemony. We don't want your stuff, we have our own.

    Work on the independence bit, just for independence' sake, I recommend. Same goes for your industry, military and politics.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  18. #18
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Taplow, UK
    Posts
    8,439

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    The EU really has no shame. Wasn't it pretty obvious that china were paying a pittance for data that should have been kept pretty damn secret?

    Then after deciding that industrial espionage in the EU merely requires writing a small cheque they proceed to build a system using the data quicker.

    The UK has no need of the EU. Pull out now.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  19. #19
    Senior Member Senior Member The Black Ship's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Tampa, Fl.     USA
    Posts
    1,771

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    Got a great idea...why not have the Chinese build and run it for you? Surely you can trust their Compass system more than a US GPS!
    All we are saying....is give peas a chance - Jolly Green Giant

  20. #20
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    In ur nun, causing a bloody schism!
    Posts
    7,906

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by rasoforos View Post
    It has planed a lot of nasty dictatorships in Europe in the previous cold war. <-- That is my own reason of distrust. A fine country it is but it has the tendency to spawn McCarthies and Kissingers when cornered.

    But for the sake of the argument let's say that it has done nothing wrong ever. This does not mean that we should be caught with our pants down if attacked (or if our western ally fails). Next time the US and (Insert superpower here) decide to divide Europe I wanna be able to tell em to stuff it where the sun don't shine
    However you appear to accept the partnership with China. Interesting.

    So the main reason to complete the project is to counter the Yanks. Brilliant, and fresh.
    Last edited by Vladimir; 02-23-2009 at 15:55.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  21. #21
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    France
    Posts
    3,074

    Default Re : citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    Hey know what? Military and technological independence is something every country should pursue.

    That's what Canada have been trying to do - with little success - for a while, and I think that's what Europe should do aswell.
    It's not as much a way to 'counter the yanks' as a way to have our own reliable technology.

    Now, I agree that the US are for some reasons distrusted in Europe (as in the rest of the world, that's what you get for being the hegemon), and that the very idea of the US using his GPS as a diplomatic tool sounds unbelievable (but then, the US have done some unbelievable things lately).

    And no, I don't think a partnership with China is a good idea. If it was up to me, China would be boycotted in whole EU.
    Last edited by Meneldil; 02-23-2009 at 16:06.

  22. #22
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Forever adrift
    Posts
    5,668

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    i would take that sentiment seriously if the european nations decided to be serious about the first duty of the nation state, i.e. the provision of external security to their respective populations, something i would argue thay are failing to do spending an average of 1.75% of GDP on defence, wasting what precious little money there is on vanity projects, and damaging their strategic relationship with the worlds superpower by attempting to build parallel defence institutions that sideline NATO.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  23. #23
    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Athens, Greece
    Posts
    2,713

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir View Post
    However you appear to accept the partnership with China. Interesting.

    So the main reason to complete the project is to counter the Yanks. Brilliant, and fresh.
    I am talking strategic independence and provision of a plan B in case Uncle Sam gets beaten...

    ...yet you hear what you want to hear. Not so brilliant or fresh...
    Αξιζει φιλε να πεθανεις για ενα ονειρο, κι ας ειναι η φωτια του να σε καψει.

    http://grumpygreekguy.tumblr.com/

  24. #24
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    In ur nun, causing a bloody schism!
    Posts
    7,906

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by rasoforos View Post
    I am talking strategic independence and provision of a plan B in case Uncle Sam gets beaten...

    ...yet you hear what you want to hear. Not so brilliant or fresh...
    Uh huh. Anyway, bias and subjectivity are always in style. I would like if Europe found a way of doing it without adding to the clutter above the Earth. How many mountain ranges do you people have? That would be brilliant and fresh.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  25. #25
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Between the Mountain and the Sound
    Posts
    11,074
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    *Laughs himself silly*

    Ahem...right.

    Quote Originally Posted by rasoforos View Post
    Even if there is never a direct confrontation with the US and even if we assume that we will alsways share the same geopolitical goals (not true even today) we need to take into account the emergence of new Superpowers (China and Russia) that may eventually surpass the US at the economic and consequently the military level. Therefore we cannot rely on the US for strategic defensive projects and need to maintain independent capability.
    I think we've got more to worry about in China than Russia. Anyway, if they surpassed us, how would they not surpass the EU?

    Its obvious that they can't even get this working on time, after all.

    But hey, its your money, not mine.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  26. #26
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    6,407

    Default Re: Re : citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Meneldil View Post
    That's what Canada have been trying to do - with little success - for a while, and I think that's what Europe should do aswell.
    If Canada tried to do it without the inherent anti-Americanism involved (yes, it is involved, and some of it is vicious), then I think a lot more people would be a little happier about it.

  27. #27
    Vindicative son of a gun Member Jolt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Chuck Norris' hand is the only hand that can beat a Royal Flush.
    Posts
    3,740

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    i would take that sentiment seriously if the european nations decided to be serious about the first duty of the nation state, i.e. the provision of external security to their respective populations, something i would argue thay are failing to do spending an average of 1.75% of GDP on defence, wasting what precious little money there is on vanity projects, and damaging their strategic relationship with the worlds superpower by attempting to build parallel defence institutions that sideline NATO.
    So we should remain subservient to the World's Greatest Power, and not prepare for the future where the EU can actually proceed with its own independent foreign policy without the guidance of the USA?
    BLARGH!

  28. #28
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Forever adrift
    Posts
    5,668

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    no, but the idea of the EU wishing to be an independent superpower is:
    a) laughable given how low Defence spending ranks in european priorities
    b) wholly undesirable to many EU nations given the level of military integration it would require
    c) daft in that considering the above it manages to damage institutions that DO provide european security
    thus rendering galileo a pointless vanity project, and one that has been mis-managed to the point of redundancy to boot.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 02-24-2009 at 17:53.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  29. #29
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    i would take that sentiment seriously if the european nations decided to be serious about the first duty of the nation state, i.e. the provision of external security to their respective populations, something i would argue thay are failing to do spending an average of 1.75% of GDP on defence, wasting what precious little money there is on vanity projects, and damaging their strategic relationship with the worlds superpower by attempting to build parallel defence institutions that sideline NATO.
    Spending 1.75% on the military would be silly for us, we are way too small for that much an army, the Netherlands is armed to the teeth as it is. I know it's a deal but it's not practical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    no, but the idea of the EU wishing to be an independent superpower is:
    You forgot incredibly dangerous, especially with the EU's desire to include the Balkans. How easily the EU will be devided with their EU army.
    Last edited by Fragony; 02-24-2009 at 18:03.

  30. #30
    Vindicative son of a gun Member Jolt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Chuck Norris' hand is the only hand that can beat a Royal Flush.
    Posts
    3,740

    Default Re: citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    no, but the idea of the EU wishing to be an independent superpower is:
    a) laughable given how low Defence spending ranks in european priorities
    b) wholly undesirable to many EU nations given the level of military integration it would require
    c) daft in that considering the above it manages to damage institutions that DO provide european security
    thus rendering galileo a pointless vanity project, and one that has been mis-managed to the point of redundancy to boot.
    I don't think the EU wants to become a Superpower. I think it wants to end the Century hold period of American hegemony over the continent. And it has to start somewhere.
    a) Wait, but do you think high defence spending budget is a good thing? O_o That's odd.
    b) I don't see how not being a unified military would cripple the military power of the EU in comparison with different armies under a central EU command.
    c) Damages so in what way? If so, why does it damage? Because the Americans wish for the Europeans to continue addicted to their system so they can use it as diplomatic leverage when the oportunity presents itself? If the situation was reversed, do you think the Americans would think twice before developping their own GPS system. Do you think a tiger would rather stay in a cage or be free?
    BLARGH!

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO