citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/c...f-control.html (it is the right article link)

Chinese pull a fast one in space race as EU’s 'pigs with gold trotters’ remain earthbound

There has been another wondrously bizarre twist to the unending farce of the EU’s favourite vanity project, Galileo. This is the multi-billion euro programme designed to give the EU its own rival to the US GPS satellite system, which provides a free positioning fix to ships, aircraft, Satnav owners and other users all over the world.

Although I have regularly reported on this joke project since 2001, almost the only time it has excited much media interest in Britain was when, in 2007, the late Gwyneth Dunwoody described it as “not one pig flying in orbit, this is a herd of pigs with gold trotters, platinum tails and diamond eyes”. The Commons Transport Committee, of which she was chairman, had produced a report suggesting that Galileo would cost British taxpayers at least £1.7 billion, and was so pointless that it might as well be scrapped.

No episode in the story was more curious, however, than the deal signed in October 2003, whereby the Chinese government agreed to pay 200 million euros for a 20 per cent share in Galileo, to be spent on developing infrastructure and ground stations based on European technological know-how. The EU was over the moon, thinking that this would cement in China as its partner in a project always partly intended for military use, allowing it both to operate independently of the US.

A first sign that all was not well came when the Chinese, having got on with their part of the deal, using EU know-how, were shut out from top-level management of Galileo on security grounds. But, having obtained the technical information they wanted, they have powered ahead with a satellite system of their own, Compass. They are now so far advanced, and Galileo has slipped so far behind schedule, it seems certain that the Chinese satellites will be in place long before the EU system.

Furthermore the Chinese now plan to operate on the same wavelengths that the EU had earmarked for Galileo. Since their satellites will get there first, they will be able to lay claim to ownership of them. The EU would thus only be able to use the wavelengths with Chinese permission.

Having robbed the Common Agricultural Fund of

€1 billion in a desperate effort to pay the soaring bill for Galileo, the Europeans are said to be “very angry”, since this removes just about the last conceivable excuse for proceeding with their absurd project. The Americans, having followed the whole saga with bemused irritation, are said to be laughing themselves silly.

option 2.

a total waste of money.
a typical EU example of the ridiculous corporatist methods to build industry.
funny to me, china and america as we stand on the sidelines and mock the EU's incompetent vanity project.

The wheel is fine. It's round, it works.

At the moment, the US can withdraw GPS capability at a whim. This means that if the US and EU interests differ in a certain region, the EU will not have GPS capability. This is clearly unacceptable.

Even if there is never a direct confrontation with the US and even if we assume that we will alsways share the same geopolitical goals (not true even today) we need to take into account the emergence of new Superpowers (China and Russia) that may eventually surpass the US at the economic and consequently the military level. Therefore we cannot rely on the US for strategic defensive projects and need to maintain independent capability.

If we do not, as Europeans, establish strong military capabilities we will be drawn into the game of superpowers when a new cold war emerges.

True enough the project is late but think about it. It faced a major restructuring 1.5 year ago (officially the current galileo project was launched in July 2008 - OH MY 6 MONTHS INTO IT ALREADY WE ARE SO LATE!!!) and now we have to deal with the recession. At its current form it is planned to be completed in 2013 and I do not think 5 years is all that bad.

Of course the writer of the article, who practically wanted to just compose a polemic for the gullible, did not even bother to mention that the Chinese allready have a navigation system (geostationary - for defensive military purposes) and that they requested to enter Gallileo for commercial purposes. Then they decided to expand their own system for commercial purposes and left Gallileo.

The strong objections of various US sources of power towards Galileo should give you a good idea about why such articles are written (And how they are possibly funded)

As for 'robbing the CAF' ... well...lol....where do you come from mate? Mars? Our farmers here are more well fed that our cattle! About time they are robbed a bit...


In brief: Late or not, expensive or not we need it. Even if the Yanks do not want us to have it

Meh, if the US takes away GPS from us (well, how could they reliably do that anyway? encryption? different signals? they'd have to supply new receivers to everybody in the US and some would prolly leak anyway...) then we can just shoot down their GPs satellites and say if we can't have it, they can't have it either.
Since I think that ain't not happening anyway, I'm not really worried and think this is rather redundant and a great way to sell new hardware.

Go for it, sez little old me. Just don't crash your satellite into my satellite

ESA article on "why Galileo"

Originally Posted by KukriKhan

Go for it, sez little old me. Just don't crash your satellite into my satellite

ESA article on "why Galileo"

Nah, our European slim culturally refined satellites could never damage your American fat lumbering redneck satellites.

Originally Posted by rasoforos

At the moment, the US can withdraw GPS capability at a whim. This means that if the US and EU interests differ in a certain region, the EU will not have GPS capability. This is clearly unacceptable.

Who cares about GPS our radar systems are much more advanced we can shoot a pimple from a flies butt, and why would our hamburger eating buddies go nasty on us, our mucas all fine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxatbKEHo3Y

Originally Posted by rasoforos

Nah, our European slim culturally refined satellites could never damage your American fat lumbering redneck satellites.

So, it's Maserati v Ford pickup truck. LOL.

Good luck with the financing though. Really.

Originally Posted by KukriKhan

Go for it, sez little old me. Just don't crash your satellite into my satellite

ESA article on "why Galileo"

interesting, but odd that they bang on and on about it being under civilian control as if that was a good thing. galileo will be under political control which will have much the same result. if the system needs to be switched off for civvies it will be switched off, regardless of whether it is GPS or galileo.

Originally Posted by Fragony

Who cares about GPS our radar systems are much more advanced we can shoot a pimple from a flies butt, and why would our hamburger eating buddies go nasty on us, our mucas all fine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxatbKEHo3Y

Radar makes sure you see the enemy's missiles before they go boom

GPS makes sure your missiles go boom where they are supposed to (yet another reason we cannot rely on GPS because US missiles seem to go boom allover the place)

Well it is a different thing really Radars and GPS.

Originally Posted by rasoforos

Radar makes sure you see the enemy's missiles before they go boom

The oldies, this is the most advanced surveillance system in the world. And why are we worrying about the US turning foul in the first place.

Originally Posted by Fragony

The oldies, this is the most advanced surveillance system in the world. And why are we worrying about the US turning foul in the first place.

For the opposite reason as to why were were not worried that Germany would play tricks on us after WW I.

Originally Posted by rasoforos

For the opposite reason as to why were were not worried that Germany would play tricks on us after WW I.

The west is as solid as a rock. We can count on the GPS system, and if we can't we don't need it, this is a pet-project overstretching any real use. Galileo is more advanced yes, more advanced to be able to fight sticks and stones.

could you elaborate on that?

i am really unsure as to what the US has done to engender such distrust in europe.

It has planed a lot of nasty dictatorships in Europe in the previous cold war. <-- That is my own reason of distrust. A fine country it is but it has the tendency to spawn McCarthies and Kissingers when cornered.

But for the sake of the argument let's say that it has done nothing wrong ever. This does not mean that we should be caught with our pants down if attacked (or if our western ally fails). Next time the US and (Insert superpower here) decide to divide Europe I wanna be able to tell em to stuff it where the sun don't shine

Independence of resources is always a good thing. I think Europe spends/wastes more time, money, and goodwill than it has to, guarding against imagined American hegemony. We don't want your stuff, we have our own.

Work on the independence bit, just for independence' sake, I recommend. Same goes for your industry, military and politics.

The EU really has no shame. Wasn't it pretty obvious that china were paying a pittance for data that should have been kept pretty damn secret?

Then after deciding that industrial espionage in the EU merely requires writing a small cheque they proceed to build a system using the data quicker.

The UK has no need of the EU. Pull out now.

Got a great idea...why not have the Chinese build and run it for you? Surely you can trust their Compass system more than a US GPS!

Originally Posted by rasoforos

It has planed a lot of nasty dictatorships in Europe in the previous cold war. <-- That is my own reason of distrust. A fine country it is but it has the tendency to spawn McCarthies and Kissingers when cornered.

But for the sake of the argument let's say that it has done nothing wrong ever. This does not mean that we should be caught with our pants down if attacked (or if our western ally fails). Next time the US and (Insert superpower here) decide to divide Europe I wanna be able to tell em to stuff it where the sun don't shine

However you appear to accept the partnership with China. Interesting.

So the main reason to complete the project is to counter the Yanks. Brilliant, and fresh.

Hey know what? Military and technological independence is something every country should pursue.

That's what Canada have been trying to do - with little success - for a while, and I think that's what Europe should do aswell.
It's not as much a way to 'counter the yanks' as a way to have our own reliable technology.

Now, I agree that the US are for some reasons distrusted in Europe (as in the rest of the world, that's what you get for being the hegemon), and that the very idea of the US using his GPS as a diplomatic tool sounds unbelievable (but then, the US have done some unbelievable things lately).

And no, I don't think a partnership with China is a good idea. If it was up to me, China would be boycotted in whole EU.

i would take that sentiment seriously if the european nations decided to be serious about the first duty of the nation state, i.e. the provision of external security to their respective populations, something i would argue thay are failing to do spending an average of 1.75% of GDP on defence, wasting what precious little money there is on vanity projects, and damaging their strategic relationship with the worlds superpower by attempting to build parallel defence institutions that sideline NATO.

Originally Posted by Vladimir

However you appear to accept the partnership with China. Interesting.

So the main reason to complete the project is to counter the Yanks. Brilliant, and fresh.

I am talking strategic independence and provision of a plan B in case Uncle Sam gets beaten...

...yet you hear what you want to hear. Not so brilliant or fresh...

Originally Posted by rasoforos

I am talking strategic independence and provision of a plan B in case Uncle Sam gets beaten...

...yet you hear what you want to hear. Not so brilliant or fresh...

Uh huh. Anyway, bias and subjectivity are always in style. I would like if Europe found a way of doing it without adding to the clutter above the Earth. How many mountain ranges do you people have? That would be brilliant and fresh.

*Laughs himself silly*

Ahem...right.

Originally Posted by rasoforos

Even if there is never a direct confrontation with the US and even if we assume that we will alsways share the same geopolitical goals (not true even today) we need to take into account the emergence of new Superpowers (China and Russia) that may eventually surpass the US at the economic and consequently the military level. Therefore we cannot rely on the US for strategic defensive projects and need to maintain independent capability.

I think we've got more to worry about in China than Russia. Anyway, if they surpassed us, how would they not surpass the EU?

Its obvious that they can't even get this working on time, after all.

But hey, its your money, not mine.

CR

Originally Posted by Meneldil

That's what Canada have been trying to do - with little success - for a while, and I think that's what Europe should do aswell.

If Canada tried to do it without the inherent anti-Americanism involved (yes, it is involved, and some of it is vicious), then I think a lot more people would be a little happier about it.

Originally Posted by Furunculus

i would take that sentiment seriously if the european nations decided to be serious about the first duty of the nation state, i.e. the provision of external security to their respective populations, something i would argue thay are failing to do spending an average of 1.75% of GDP on defence, wasting what precious little money there is on vanity projects, and damaging their strategic relationship with the worlds superpower by attempting to build parallel defence institutions that sideline NATO.

So we should remain subservient to the World's Greatest Power, and not prepare for the future where the EU can actually proceed with its own independent foreign policy without the guidance of the USA?

no, but the idea of the EU wishing to be an independent superpower is:
a) laughable given how low Defence spending ranks in european priorities
b) wholly undesirable to many EU nations given the level of military integration it would require
c) daft in that considering the above it manages to damage institutions that DO provide european security
thus rendering galileo a pointless vanity project, and one that has been mis-managed to the point of redundancy to boot.

Originally Posted by Furunculus

i would take that sentiment seriously if the european nations decided to be serious about the first duty of the nation state, i.e. the provision of external security to their respective populations, something i would argue thay are failing to do spending an average of 1.75% of GDP on defence, wasting what precious little money there is on vanity projects, and damaging their strategic relationship with the worlds superpower by attempting to build parallel defence institutions that sideline NATO.

Spending 1.75% on the military would be silly for us, we are way too small for that much an army, the Netherlands is armed to the teeth as it is. I know it's a deal but it's not practical.

Originally Posted by Furunculus

no, but the idea of the EU wishing to be an independent superpower is:

You forgot incredibly dangerous, especially with the EU's desire to include the Balkans. How easily the EU will be devided with their EU army.

Originally Posted by Furunculus

no, but the idea of the EU wishing to be an independent superpower is:
a) laughable given how low Defence spending ranks in european priorities
b) wholly undesirable to many EU nations given the level of military integration it would require
c) daft in that considering the above it manages to damage institutions that DO provide european security
thus rendering galileo a pointless vanity project, and one that has been mis-managed to the point of redundancy to boot.

I don't think the EU wants to become a Superpower. I think it wants to end the Century hold period of American hegemony over the continent. And it has to start somewhere.
a) Wait, but do you think high defence spending budget is a good thing? O_o That's odd.
b) I don't see how not being a unified military would cripple the military power of the EU in comparison with different armies under a central EU command.
c) Damages so in what way? If so, why does it damage? Because the Americans wish for the Europeans to continue addicted to their system so they can use it as diplomatic leverage when the oportunity presents itself? If the situation was reversed, do you think the Americans would think twice before developping their own GPS system. Do you think a tiger would rather stay in a cage or be free?