Friendly Fire Bug?

[BeeSting]

Is it just me or has anyone else notice a unit in front being fired on by a friendly unit directly behind it? and I'm not talking about the artillery.



Note I ordered my units not to fire or their fire at will was off, so AI casualties are sustained from their own in the rear.

You can already see how depleted the unit in front is just from their own friendly fire. It's no surprise since the rear unit was firing volleys into the backs of its own.

[Monk]

If the unit behind is within range of the enemy they will still try to engage even though they can't get a good shot because someone is in the way. Turn off "Fire at will" for the units behind to try and limit friendly fire when you've got two lines.

[Martok]

What Monk said.


Friendly fire has always been a feature of TW battles: If a unit is standing too close to a friendly missile unit (*especially* when it's front of the missile unit), it will take casualties.

[SpencerH]

You'd think they would've/could've fixed this by now!

[Vuk]

It is not a bug. It has happened in real life. A commander needs to be careful. If it seems ridiculous, that is just because the player is being ridiculously careless in his placement of units and his orders thereto.

[SpencerH]

You're right it isnt a "bug". Its bad programming that was eliminated to a large degree with viking invasion but re-emerged in RTW. One unit firing point blank into the back of the unit in front of them is ridiculous and totally unreal.

[Beskar]

That's what you would think, but look at recent modern day wars, for example. It happens.

[Sir Beane]

You're right it isnt a "bug". Its bad programming that was eliminated to a large degree with viking invasion but re-emerged in RTW. One unit firing point blank into the back of the unit in front of them is ridiculous and totally unreal.

It's annoying but it isn't unrealistic. Friendly fire incidents happen frequently in combat, even in modern warfare. Poorly trained or nervous soldiers might easily make mistakes such as firing too close to a friendly unit. If you wish to avoid it then it's a matter of organising your army properly. I would rather have friendly fire than have units refuse to fire near a friendly/ have their bullets just pass straight through.

If you don't want your men shot in the back then don't stand them in front of guns, its as simple as that.

[A Very Super Market]

Cute fuzzy slingers. Always killing my FMs.

Keep in mind that muskets are ridiculously innacurate anyways.

[BeeSting]

If the unit behind is within range of the enemy they will still try to engage even though they can't get a good shot because someone is in the way. Turn off "Fire at will" for the units behind to try and limit friendly fire when you've got two lines.

The problem is not the human player but the AI, I have as you said turn off fire at will (what pain! What micro management!) I witnessed the AI army decimating its own in front with units on the back.

[CBR]

It does seem somewhat bugged. Fire at will should not allow units to fire into friendly units. That should only happen if the player gives a specific target that overrides the "safety"


CBR

[Vuk]

It does seem somewhat bugged. Fire at will should not allow units to fire into friendly units. That should only happen if the player gives a specific target that overrides the "safety"


CBR

Ok, I'll agree with that.

[IlDuce]

Friendly Fire Bug? I swear I got given a book with him in it about playing with matches as kid.

Friendly fire has always got me. Send in my elite troops and I realise they're dying much quicker than they should be. Then I realise it's my own bloody archers. At least my training has turned them into killing machines of sorts.

[Sir Beane]

Friendly Fire Bug? I swear I got given a book with him in it about playing with matches as kid.

Friendly fire has always got me. Send in my elite troops and I realise they're dying much quicker than they should be. Then I realise it's my own bloody archers. At least my training has turned them into killing machines of sorts.

Well at least they were killing someone. It's good practice . Personally I don't mind friendly fire. It's pretty funny when you accidentally blow up your own General just before winning the battle .

[BeeSting]

It does seem somewhat bugged. Fire at will should not allow units to fire into friendly units. That should only happen if the player gives a specific target that overrides the "safety"


CBR

Exactly my point; thank you!

AI was mowing down its own with musket fire. How realistic is it to mow your own down just because it is in between you and your target?

Although it has been heard of with artillery at long ranges... but shooting into the backs of your friendly soldiers directly in front of you so you can get a clear shot doesn't sound right.

[BeeSting]

The AI is messing up its own; that's the problem... I could manage to micromanage my own to not shoot but the AI is not doing so well with it. I can't believe CA testers didn't pick this out already.

This happens on sea battles too.... the AI does not seem to know that firing when the friendly is in front will not hurt the enemy but its own only!

[SpencerH]

It's annoying but it isn't unrealistic. Friendly fire incidents happen frequently in combat, even in modern warfare. Poorly trained or nervous soldiers might easily make mistakes such as firing too close to a friendly unit. If you wish to avoid it then it's a matter of organising your army properly. I would rather have friendly fire than have units refuse to fire near a friendly/ have their bullets just pass straight through.

If you don't want your men shot in the back then don't stand them in front of guns, its as simple as that.

Friendly fire incidents do happen. I know, I was fired upon by fellow members of my own platoon so I think I have a better viewpoint on the subject than most others here. Most incidents of "friendly fire" are due to artillery or aircraft ground attack but despite your strawman, thats not what we are discussing. Incidents of short range "friendly fire" occur because of confusion. Its easy to mistake who's who in the dark or in heavy cover and sometimes the rapidity of movement on the modern battlefield cause errors. OTOH, its totally unrealistic to have a unit armed with a musket or bow, standing in an open field, fire point blank into the back of the unit in front of it.

[Barkhorn1x]

OTOH, its totally unrealistic to have a unit armed with a musket or bow, standing in an open field, fire point blank into the back of the unit in front of it.

I agree here.

[Sol Invictus]

Friendly fire incidents do happen. I know, I was fired upon by fellow members of my own platoon so I think I have a better viewpoint on the subject than most others here. Most incidents of "friendly fire" are due to artillery or aircraft ground attack but despite your strawman, thats not what we are discussing. Incidents of short range "friendly fire" occur because of confusion. Its easy to mistake who's who in the dark or in heavy cover and sometimes the rapidity of movement on the modern battlefield cause errors. OTOH, its totally unrealistic to have a unit armed with a musket or bow, standing in an open field, fire point blank into the back of the unit in front of it.

Agreed. I was an Artilleryman many years ago and it was a very great concern when firing indirectly. Musket era units firing into the backs of their comrades is a very different situation. Like was posted earlier, it is an annowance for the Player to avoid, but the AI could be crippled by this.

[Emperor of Graal]

In M2TW I was against Venice.
The general was standing in front of a cannon as that was the generals unit.
He died.
The friendly fire is defiantly not a bug

[Beskar]

[QUOTE=SpencerH;2148399]

Well at least they were killing someone. It's good practice . Personally I don't mind friendly fire. It's pretty funny when you accidentally blow up your own General just before winning the battle .

I remember that in Rome Total War. I had my Heavy Ongers firing at a group behind the Wall while I was moving my General to get ready to go through the gate and one of the shots miss fired and went flying right into my general, killing him instantly.

Losing him really hurt my army more than I liked.

[CBR]

IIRC RTW demo and first release had horrible friendly fire too but was fixed in a patch. After that individual soldiers refused to fire unless they had a clear LOS to a target.


CBR

[BeeSting]

IIRC RTW demo and first release had horrible friendly fire too but was fixed in a patch. After that individual soldiers refused to fire unless they had a clear LOS to a target.


CBR

This is a serious problem because it gimps the AI big time. I was wondering why AI units were being depleted so fast...

I hope they can get it fixed before the release... I remember in RTW archers were killing archers within its own unit and we had to wait for months before it was patched!

[Sir Beane]

Friendly fire incidents do happen. I know, I was fired upon by fellow members of my own platoon so I think I have a better viewpoint on the subject than most others here. Most incidents of "friendly fire" are due to artillery or aircraft ground attack but despite your strawman, thats not what we are discussing. Incidents of short range "friendly fire" occur because of confusion. Its easy to mistake who's who in the dark or in heavy cover and sometimes the rapidity of movement on the modern battlefield cause errors. OTOH, its totally unrealistic to have a unit armed with a musket or bow, standing in an open field, fire point blank into the back of the unit in front of it.

I respectfully disagree. In modern times it is unlikely a group of trained soldiers would fire into a friendly group and even now it still happens.

I agree that experienced or elite units would be unlikely to make this mistake. Militia, conscripts and other poorly trained infantry might very well, under the stress of battle, fire in way that caused damage to a friendly group. They might be standing in an open field, but that open field would be filled with the sound of cannon fire, explosions and in pitched battles visibility could be severely impaired by smoke. Add to this the fact that muskets are innacurate and unreliable compared to modern weaponry, and that 18th century troops recieved very little training in accuracy.

If a group of untrained, nervous men in the heat of battle recieved an order to fire then many would probably do so, even if friendly units were in the way.

I do however agree that if the A.I is doing this regularly it is a problem. Occasionally because of poor planning or bad orders is fine. Frequently due to stupidity is not however. Friendly fire in itself is not a bug, but the fact that the A.I does it frequently might be.

[Barkhorn1x]

I respectfully disagree. In modern times it is unlikely a group of trained soldiers would fire into a friendly group and even now it still happens.

I have to disagree up to a point as most modern friendly fire incidents;
1. Happen due to the fluidity of modern combat
2. Communications issues between branches/allied nations compounding same
3. The increase in night battles as that is where Western technolgy has a more pronounced edge
4. Unforms that blend in with the terrain
5. Artillery firing indirectly

- XVIII century warfare was LOS oriented and only point #2 would come into play - and the confusion/smoke/etc. that you mentioned.

Now, given the choice between including friendly fire or not - I would opt for NO if the AI would be impared.

[BeeSting]

You're right it isnt a "bug". Its bad programming that was eliminated to a large degree with viking invasion but re-emerged in RTW. One unit firing point blank into the back of the unit in front of them is ridiculous and totally unreal.

Yeah. A bad programming is how it should really be defined... not a bug.

[Sir Beane]

I have to disagree as:

- Most modern friendly fire incidents;
1. Happen due to the fluidity of modern combat
2. Communications issues between branches/allied nations compounding same
3. The increase in night battles as that is where Western technolgy has a more pronounced edge
4. Unforms that blend in with the terrain
5. Artillery firing indirectly

- XVIII century warfare was LOS oriented and only point #2 would come into play

That might be the case with modern warfare, but war today is not the same as war in the 17th century. Not that it really matters, and we seem to be heading very quickly off-topic.

How common are these incidents of A.I friendly fire? I've fought several battles so far and I haven't noticed friendly fire at Brandywine. Lagos is a different story though, in one battle the French seemed determined to 'accidentally' shoot the Admiral's flagship. Which was useful, because up until then I was losing .

[Hollerbach]

I've only played the demo land battle once, but based on the unit stats at the end it looks like both myself and they AI took out around 50 of our own men each with friendly fire. I have no idea when this happened as I didn't see anything obvious during the battle. Since it was my first battle with a new system things felt pretty chaotic and I didn't know what was going on half the time, so it could have been arty, muskets, grenades... But yeah, 50 out of ~800 casualties seems a bit high, especially when I wasn't trying to do this (In MTW1/2, RTW sometimes I'd fire into a melee intentionally if I only had low level troops involved, kinda like the English in Braveheart...)

[ArtillerySmoke]

The problem is not the human player but the AI, I have as you said turn off fire at will (what pain! What micro management!) I witnessed the AI army decimating its own in front with units on the back.

Micromanagement is what the battles are all about lol.

[Strategy]

I've seen the AI decimate its own units with its artillery (someone in the way... no matter, just fire at will).

The irritating thing is that since your own artillery will also select its targets automatically, it will happily turn its guns to rake the units just beside it. I actually tried setting up my cannons in position, only to have the cannon pivot right to fire at an enemy, with the result that the rearmost cannon gave the unit to its right a pointblank dose of roundshot. Instant kill. Unless this is fixed, cannons will need constant micro-managing.

It seems to me that turning off fire at will doesn't always work; whenever I unlimber the cannons, it always automatically turned on.