Friendly Fire Bug?

[ArtillerySmoke]

I've seen the AI decimate its own units with its artillery (someone in the way... no matter, just fire at will).

The irritating thing is that since your own artillery will also select its targets automatically, it will happily turn its guns to rake the units just beside it. I actually tried setting up my cannons in position, only to have the cannon pivot right to fire at an enemy, with the result that the rearmost cannon gave the unit to its right a pointblank dose of roundshot. Instant kill. Unless this is fixed, cannons will need constant micro-managing.

It seems to me that turning off fire at will doesn't always work; whenever I unlimber the cannons, it always automatically turned on.

Ah ok, I see what you guys mean about micromanagement now. Hopefully this is something that's ironed out before retail ships. I would imagine it's a quick fix on CA's end.

[BeeSting]

Unless CA has already been working on this, I doubt we will see a fix before the release.

[ArtillerySmoke]

I haven't played the demo myself. I need to see this artillery in action before I decide if it's "too much" micromanagement.

[Sir Beane]

Unless CA has already been working on this, I doubt we will see a fix before the release.

There is a patch being released on the release date, so maybe that contains a fix?

[BeeSting]

I haven't played the demo myself. I need to see this artillery in action before I decide if it's "too much" micromanagement.

It's not just the artillery; when there are two lines of infantry, one in front and one in back, they both fire when enemy is in range and in line of sight. So you see two lines of musket smokes. The rear line units shoot almost point blank into the back of their own units in front.

[BeeSting]

There is a patch being released on the release date, so maybe that contains a fix?

Ah, I didn't know about that. I hope CA had caught this early enough to implement it on the first patch.

[ArtillerySmoke]

Ah, I didn't know about that. I hope CA had caught this early enough to implement it on the first patch.

If it's a legitimate issue, let's HOPE that it's ironed out in the day 1 patch - or else what is the point of the day 1 patch?

With the majority of combat now focused on skirmishing with gunpowder units, this needs to be not only working as intended, but perfect.

[quadalpha]

You can turn off fire at will for arty, you know. It's the same button as for infantry, though it turns itself back on next time you unlimber.

[A Very Super Market]

Never mind

[ljperreira]

tell that to the american army

Oh, here we go, knocking the U.S. and its military again....im pretty doggone sure that the U.S. Army is not the only one experiencing friendly fire. It happens all the time, in every war, by every nation....its just the nature of the beast.

[Fisherking]

Friendly fire has always been something of a problem in the TW games, but it has also been a fact of life on the battle field.

There should be some sort of check to see if friendly units are in the line of fire but this is a double edges sword. You may be able to fire over their heads. Without some kind of system that tells friend from foe and checks line of sight/line of fire you won’t fix it. Even with that it will not eliminate accidents, nor should it actually.

I agree that cannon should not select targets through your line units, but can they tell the units are in the line of fire.

It may be best to individually target your cannon when placed among troops. It is easy to let them select targets but not always wise. Troops have been killed by friendly fire as long as there have been projectiles.

The programming aspects of the problem are not that easy to fix. It means that each unit must be aware of its coordinate, the coordinate of every other unit and distinguish whether it is friend or foe. It is a 3d coordinate with a height range. Units have to be able to sense if a part of the target is occluded by friendly units within their arc of fire. The cone of fire also play a part (some rounds will be lower or higher). If it doesn’t work perfectly the unintended consequence is that your long range units won’t fire over the heads of your troops from a hill top.

Obviously there is some aspects to the problem they have not solved. It had occurred in each game and if it were that straight forward it would have been eliminated in STW.

It just might be a little difficult to program each unit in the game to be as humanly aware of benefits and consequences as the player is.

[Strategy]

There should be some sort of check to see if friendly units are in the line of fire but this is a double edges sword. You may be able to fire over their heads.

It wouldn't be a problem if the AI understood geography, which unfortunately it doesn't seem to do.

The problem is not friendly-fire as such; but rather the instances when the AI automatically does something blatantly stupid that it has not been given orders to do. Such as unlimber and immediately unloads cannister through its neighbouring artillery unit (happened to me again when I experimented with the game yesterday) firing at god knows what (there wasn't any enemy unit within range).

Personally, I don't think this should be that hard to fix. All it needs is a sensible heuristic - such as, for instance, taking the decision to auto-target fire based upon the (effective distance of the enemy from your unit - number of friendly units in line of fire).

Personally, I would rather have the cannons require me to manually target enemy units to force overhead fire than having to do what I do now - manually target every single unit the cannons fire at (and having to turn off fire at will every time I unlimber a battery).

But that's primarily an irritation (and one that could be fixed if they'd just make the fire at will setting persistent on artillery units). The bigger problem is that the AI - 1. will be exploited (even if you don't want to exploit it, you can't prevent it from unloading on its own units), and 2. sets up artillery in poor positions given the terrain (though one pro - it does seem to seek high ground).

Obviously there is some aspects to the problem they have not solved. It had occurred in each game and if it were that straight forward it would have been eliminated in STW.

Obviously. I code AI myself - I have a healthy respect for the difficulties involved in getting a game AI to do ANYTHING sensible.

But it's rather unfortunate that they haven't fixed this aspect in a game where 95% of the units are missile units.


Regarding infantry firing into the back of units in front of them, though, I have to say that I have not noticed this happening to any devastating effect (I have seen it happen, but the front line didn't appear to suffer any significant damage from it). What I have seen is that if a firing line at the back overlaps the firing line in the front, then the infantry who have a line of sight to the enemy on the flanks will open fire (while the rest of the line won't). Perhaps what people are seeing is that as gaps are opened in the foremost firing line (by casaulties, etc.), the rear firing line is opening fire through those gaps?

[BeeSting]

Regarding infantry firing into the back of units in front of them, though, I have to say that I have not noticed this happening to any devastating effect (I have seen it happen, but the front line didn't appear to suffer any significant damage from it). What I have seen is that if a firing line at the back overlaps the firing line in the front, then the infantry who have a line of sight to the enemy on the flanks will open fire (while the rest of the line won't). Perhaps what people are seeing is that as gaps are opened in the foremost firing line (by casaulties, etc.), the rear firing line is opening fire through those gaps?

To prove the AI friendly fire issue:


Note I ordered my units not to fire or their fire at will was off, so AI casualties are sustained from their own in the rear.

You can already see how depleted the unit in front is just from their own friendly fire. It's no surprise since the rear unit was firing volleys into the backs of its own.

[Hollerbach]

Hmm, doesn't look pretty. I hope this doesn't become a major issue in the full game, it could really be a downer. At least with AI problems in the past (such as the pin-cushion problem where they would just sit and wait until your archers had killed them to a man) could be circumvented by consciously not exploiting them, but it is a bit hard to tell the AI not to shoot itself!

[BeeSting]

It is a huge downer... I can't even play the demo anymore and having second thoughts about buying the game.

CA has never mentioned this problem and I don't even know if they are working to solve this issue.

[Sir Beane]

It is a huge downer... I can't even play the demo anymore and having second thoughts about buying the game.

CA has never mentioned this problem and I don't even know if they are working to solve this issue.

It's possible it has already been solved. A guy at TWC who got to play the game in Germany at an open day mentioned that after playing the full game the demo seemed like really old cold and that the proper game was much better.

[BeeSting]

It's possible it has already been solved. A guy at TWC who got to play the game in Germany at an open day mentioned that after playing the full game the demo seemed like really old cold and that the proper game was much better.

It seems he might have missed this issue too since this is the only thread pointing to the problem. Who knows... I just want some confirmation from CA that this is being worked on and that it will be patched at the release of the game before I spend my money only to be disappointed fighting the self-destructive AI.

[Sir Beane]

It seems he might have missed this issue too since this is the only thread pointing to the problem. Who knows... I just want some confirmation from CA that this is being worked on and that it will be patched at the release of the game before I spend my money only to be disappointed fighting the self-destructive AI.

Well those of us who have pre-ordered (like me) will very quickly be able to tell you if it is still a problem once the game ships. So you will no in a week or so . If you aren't sure about buying the game a review from an Orgah should help you decide.

[ArtillerySmoke]

omg...does a major bug have to make it's way into EVERY PC game that hits shelves? I mean EVERY one?

[BeeSting]

What gets me is that there's not a single thread or anything out there on the web mentioning this issue. So does CA know?

[Sir Beane]

What gets me is that there's not a single thread or anything out there on the web mentioning this issue. So does CA know?

Several staff members read this forum, so it's likely this thread has alerted them.

[ArtillerySmoke]

Several staff members read this forum, so it's likely this thread has alerted them.

Let's hope so...this could be a huge immersion/realism killer.

[ArtillerySmoke]

any further word on this? Is CA aware?

[BeeSting]

I, too, am pretty anxious about this as the release date draws near.

[ArtillerySmoke]

A lot of videos and screenshots are out today on our forums here. Anyone see evidence of this occurring in the core game?

[BeeSting]

I'm thinking maybe we should spread the word till we hear something about this like on other websites.

[ArtillerySmoke]

I'm thinking maybe we should spread the word till we hear something about this like on other websites.

I really don't think it's something that's going to be a problem. There will be some friendly fire casualties, as there should be, but I really doubt that CA is going to go through all of this development and then release a game where the AI shoots ITSELF.

I just don't see it happening. In all honesty man - I've never seen any evidence of there being a problem other than in this thread. I really doubt EVERYONE missed this but you.

Even in those screens you posted, there was nothing tremendous. With their units firing through another unit, some friendly fire casualties are to be expected. I don't see anything drastically different than there has ever been in a TW game.

I've been watching videos basically all day. I don't see ANYTHING that would lead me to believe that this is a problem.

[BeeSting]

I really don't think it's something that's going to be a problem. There will be some friendly fire casualties, as there should be, but I really doubt that CA is going to go through all of this development and then release a game where the AI shoots ITSELF.

I just don't see it happening. In all honesty man - I've never seen any evidence of there being a problem other than in this thread. I really doubt EVERYONE missed this but you.

Even in those screens you posted, there was nothing tremendous. With their units firing through another unit, some friendly fire casualties are to be expected. I don't see anything drastically different than there has ever been in a TW game.

I've been watching videos basically all day. I don't see ANYTHING that would lead me to believe that this is a problem.

Test it for yourself. Just run up and park your guys in front of their front rank units through the ford and see how they mow down their own. Trust me... I don't want to believe this either. I tested it with other ways to see just so that I can prove myself wrong. The problem is pretty bad... AI units route much too early because of this.

[ArtillerySmoke]

Test it for yourself. Just run up and park your guys in front of their front rank units through the ford and see how they mow down their own. Trust me... I don't want to believe this either. I tested it with other ways to see just so that I can prove myself wrong. The problem is pretty bad... AI units route much too early because of this.

Again, it's a scripted demo.

There's really nothing to worry about man. If this is in the game, we'll know in 5 minutes. It's not something that's going to go unnoticed.

Trust me - The AI is not going to decimate itself. That's not something that could be missed in development. Besides, as I've said: Go watch all of the videos that are rolling out today. It's just not something that I see happening. I see everything looking phenomenal.

[BeeSting]

I pray you are correct.