Three Kingdoms discussion

[Jolt]

I decided to create a thread about the Three Kingdoms, both Romance and history.

I remembered doing such a thread to share with you guys what I just learned about the Gongsun Zan - Yuan Shao/Liu Yu feud. Liu Yu was indeed in history everything Liu Bei was in the novel. Pity is that in history normally virtuous people are the first ones to fall. Without further ado, here is the link.

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/ind...hl=Gongsun+Zan

After reading, comment here! :)

[A Very Super Market]

Chinese myself, I hope that everybody posting here does not use Romance of the Three Kingdoms as a source for whatever discussion there may be. Historical fallacy will ensue if not.

Anyways, I find that the North of China during this period was very interesting. We should all know that Wei managed to defeat the rest, but there were simply a mind-boggling amount of warlords up there, and its a shame that we don't know more about it.

[Quintus.JC]

Anyone play the Romance of the three kingdoms series?

[Jolt]

Chinese myself, I hope that everybody posting here does not use Romance of the Three Kingdoms as a source for whatever discussion there may be. Historical fallacy will ensue if not.

Anyways, I find that the North of China during this period was very interesting. We should all know that Wei managed to defeat the rest, but there were simply a mind-boggling amount of warlords up there, and its a shame that we don't know more about it.

Romance of the Three Kingdoms is a viable source when all other historical sources don't respond to a certain question. The fact is curious that I had no idea that Gongsun Zan was despotic or tyrant-like. Although I knew that Liu Bei was nowhere as morallist or righteous as the Romance seems to make him, the fact that Gongsun Zan and Liu Bei went together while studying and they were good friends immediatly makes people believe that Zan and Bei share the same good ideals. It's the good Zan and Bei against the evil and expansionist Yuan Shao. As expected things are a lot more grey then the Romance shows, as everyone is just trying to gain more power, no exceptions made (Well, except poor Liu Yu) The curious fact is that I never knew Sun Jian was one of the most loyal to the Han ideal in the coalition. Ironic given the fact that his son would become Emperor while a Han Emperor (Liu Shan) was still in power.

[Paradox]

Personally, I don't think there was anything heroic about Liu Bei. A traitor, a man who's only aim was to gather power for himself, even at the expense of his allies (Wu). Though there are some admirable things about him, he was loved by the people and the officers of Xu and did a good job hiding his personal ambitions even after declaring himself emperor without knowing the fate of the true emperor. I think his loyal and competent officers and strategists were the actual ones that ensured his victory, and not him. However, I'm not saying that he was the only one out for power (Cao Cao/Sun Quan), at least the others didn't sugarcoat their goals using the restoration of the Han as an excuse, and we all know that's just B.S.

[Jolt]

Personally, I don't think there was anything heroic about Liu Bei. A traitor, a man who's only aim was to gather power for himself, even at the expense of his allies (Wu). Though there are some admirable things about him, he was loved by the people and the officers of Xu and did a good job hiding his personal ambitions even after declaring himself emperor without knowing the fate of the true emperor. I think his loyal and competent officers and strategists were the actual ones that ensured his victory, and not him. However, I'm not saying that he was the only one out for power (Cao Cao/Sun Quan), at least the others didn't sugarcoat their goals using the restoration of the Han as an excuse, and we all know that's just B.S.

Yeah, pretty much every officer loyal to the Han died sooner or later. Liu Yu is one example. Ma Teng was another (Killed by Ma Chao's rebellion). Hence, probably his reputation as virtuous and altruistic and moral man came exactly from his popularity with the people.