Results 1 to 21 of 21

Thread: Naval Battles: What could work better in the demo

  1. #1
    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    East of Augusta Vindelicorum
    Posts
    5,575

    Default Naval Battles: What could work better in the demo

    The Naval battles seem to have a few issues I have not seen brought up.

    There is no command for a turn about. This is important when ships have taken damage to only one side and turning the whole line back on its self is slow and cumbersome…not to mention masking fires and even the needless loss of ships.

    The ships seem to have some path finding issues. I have seen the ships try limited maneuver to avoid striking but usually it is too little too late. Many of the collisions could be avoided if it were slightly better. Once they have collided the best thing to do is stop the ship and try to turn it. Sometimes they are fouled or stuck and one ship or the other has to sink to get underway.

    Reclicking or double clicking the line ahead does not reposition ships in that formation. It usually results in chaos with ships going every which way. It usually straightens out when you give a group move in a particular direction but the movement arrow could start from some unexpected location and leading ships may turn around to go back, resulting in casualties or the loss of ships.

    The attack ship order results in some strange positioning and is not very effective.

    This is only meant as constructive criticism and not an attempt to trash a very enjoyable part of the game. It could just use a bit of fine tuning.


    As skill lever improves players can avoid some of these pit falls but I also think that they should be pointed out to the developers.


    What have the rest of you found?
    Last edited by Fisherking; 02-27-2009 at 22:45.


    Education: that which reveals to the wise,
    and conceals from the stupid,
    the vast limits of their knowledge.
    Mark Twain

  2. #2
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Albion
    Posts
    15,930
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Naval Battles: What could work better in the demo

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post

    There is no command for a turn about. This is important when ships have taken damage to only one side and turning the whole line back on its self is slow and cumbersome…not to mention masking fires and even the needless loss of ships.
    There is. The turn buttons on the UI.
    Days since the Apocalypse began
    "We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
    "Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."

  3. #3
    Member Member Dogfish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Wilmington, North Carolina, United States, Earth
    Posts
    97

    Default Re: Naval Battles: What could work better in the demo

    I agree with a lot of that.

    Also, I may just be missing something, but it would also seem that when you've moving a group the +/- on the sails button is inactive?

    And I would've prefered if they would've made it realistic where you can't sail into the wind. They could've maybe done auto-tacking handled by the AI when the player moves the ships upwind.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Naval Battles: What could work better in the demo

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogfish View Post
    And I would've prefered if they would've made it realistic where you can't sail into the wind. They could've maybe done auto-tacking handled by the AI when the player moves the ships upwind.
    They used to have that, but their testers said it was too confusing for new people to have their ships start moving in a different direction then they said.
    I shouldn't have to live in a world where all the good points are horrible ones.

    Is he hurt? Everybody asks that. Nobody ever says, 'What a mess! I hope the doctor is not emotionally harmed by having to deal with it.'

  5. #5
    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    East of Augusta Vindelicorum
    Posts
    5,575

    Default Re: Naval Battles: What could work better in the demo

    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiusBeskar View Post
    There is. The turn buttons on the UI.

    A Turn About Maneuver is one in which the entire fleet executes a 180° turn and proceeds in the opposite direction.


    If each ship is turned individually they will reverse, that is true. But it is not the same as reversing the sailing order of the fleet.

    The flagship still wants to lead and you have a jumbled mess. There are work-around but it is something that should be a quick smooth command that is easy to execute and not something that you have to do individually breaking out of a group and reforming.

    I won’t say it isn’t in the game before I get the manual and read up on it, but it has not been anything I have been able to discover.


    Education: that which reveals to the wise,
    and conceals from the stupid,
    the vast limits of their knowledge.
    Mark Twain

  6. #6
    Member Member Polemists's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    In the Lou
    Posts
    1,213

    Default Re: Naval Battles: What could work better in the demo

    Boarding...in my view could be quicker or better implemented.

    As it stands, I click on a ship, my ship then takes the long route. Then when it pulls up, there are about 3 or 4 salvos before our ships ever actually get together to board.

    I don't know about you, but 1-2 salvos is enough to make a ship consider surrender, so the fact you can fire once, twice or four times before actually getting to boarding seems silly to me. It may be realistic, but it eliminates boarding as any kind of viable option.

    Just my two cents.

  7. #7
    The Laughing Knight Member Sir Beane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Heanor, Derbyshire, England
    Posts
    1,724

    Default Re: Naval Battles: What could work better in the demo

    Quote Originally Posted by Polemists View Post
    Boarding...in my view could be quicker or better implemented.

    As it stands, I click on a ship, my ship then takes the long route. Then when it pulls up, there are about 3 or 4 salvos before our ships ever actually get together to board.

    I don't know about you, but 1-2 salvos is enough to make a ship consider surrender, so the fact you can fire once, twice or four times before actually getting to boarding seems silly to me. It may be realistic, but it eliminates boarding as any kind of viable option.

    Just my two cents.
    It's not even that realistic. Many ships wouldn't have risked a point blank barrage into a ship that close to it in case they blew it up, set it on fire, or dropped one of its masts onto themselves. If that many salvos could be fired before boarding then pirates would have had a much harder time of it. Hopefully it goes faster in the proper game .
    Last edited by Sir Beane; 02-28-2009 at 14:39.


    ~ I LOVE DEMOS ~

    . -- ---------- --
    . By your powers combined I am!
    . ----------------------


  8. #8
    Member Member Polemists's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    In the Lou
    Posts
    1,213

    Default Re: Naval Battles: What could work better in the demo

    I hope so to,

    Though judging by the screens I saw of the last superior tactics video, they still got a shot in edge wise.

    Though that had to be by far the worse video of naval tactics I have ever seen.

    "Today we are going to show you boarding"

    *5-6 minutes of battle*

    "Now I pull my ship around, over go the hooks"

    "Now I rake a shot of grapeshot across his bow"

    "and........Victory"

    What happened to the boarding? :P

  9. #9
    Member Member Tsavong's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    258

    Default Re: Naval Battles: What could work better in the demo

    I find the Naval battle on the demo quite diffract from the land battle, which is probably true in real life I doubt many generals from the 1700s could be put on a ship and sail it to glory. Which is probably a problem France had in the 1800s if we assume some the officers were royalists.

    I find the best strategy early on is to sail in a line past the 1st French fleet then stop the fleet when I'm in a position to cross the T of the 2nd fleet which allows most/all of my ships to fire into the disorganised mess of French ships. After that I then have to move the ships around 1 at a time to react to the damage they take and to where the AI sends it ships.

    The sea battles are much batter then the ones in Imperial Glory. I like that in ETW you can put your ships on fire at will in a large fleet but in a small say single ship action you could get in and micro a bit hopefully it will be fun in the full game.

  10. #10
    Member Member Zenicetus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    On a ship, in a storm
    Posts
    906

    Default Re: Naval Battles: What could work better in the demo

    Quote Originally Posted by Zerg View Post
    I find the best strategy early on is to sail in a line past the 1st French fleet then stop the fleet when I'm in a position to cross the T of the 2nd fleet which allows most/all of my ships to fire into the disorganised mess of French ships. After that I then have to move the ships around 1 at a time to react to the damage they take and to where the AI sends it ships.
    The mind boggles... you can just stop your ships at will, in the middle of the ocean.

    That isn't a tactic, it's an exploit of a silly arcade game design. I'm still holding out a remote hope that the actual naval battles in the game will be something different from what we're seeing in the demo. If not, this game had better include an auto-calc'd sea battle that doesn't penalize the player for bypassing sea battles, in order to enjoy the rest of the game.
    Feaw is a weapon.... wise genewuhs use weuuhw! -- Jebe the Tyrant

  11. #11
    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    East of Augusta Vindelicorum
    Posts
    5,575

    Default Re: Naval Battles: What could work better in the demo

    Zenicetus, you seem to have some knowledge of naval tactics.

    Other than the sailing into the wind part, what recommendations do you have regarding the sea battles?

    Are there other fleet maneuvers that have been overlooked?


    Education: that which reveals to the wise,
    and conceals from the stupid,
    the vast limits of their knowledge.
    Mark Twain

  12. #12
    Member Member Tsavong's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    258

    Default Re: Naval Battles: What could work better in the demo

    From what I know of naval battles of this time the two sides would line there ships up and sail past each other shooting there guns. There was the tactic of braking the line which Nelson employed at Trafalgar I believe it works by cutting the line isolating some ships down wind of the others allowing the attacker not to fight the whole enemy fleet at once. It also lets the attacking ships fire into the bow and stern of enemy ships as it passes though the line. The downside is your lead ship or ships has to endure the fire-power of the enemy fleet as you close in with only your bow guns shooting back.

    You can try this in the demo if you just leave your Royal Navy fleet alone and let it sale on at the French and it dose work well you just have to react right after you pass the French fleet. It is quite nice to see the 100 gun flagship fireing at close range into the two smaller French ships on each side.

    The Royal Navy web sight dose have some info on battles in the age of sail

    http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/server/show/nav.3926
    Last edited by Tsavong; 03-01-2009 at 23:28.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Naval Battles: What could work better in the demo

    Boarding action does take a long time, although it might help campaign balance. If capturing were easy, one could simply steal a large navy early on.
    I agree that the ability to stop is ridiculous, and that reaches should make more of a difference. I would certainly be interested in mods that address those issues.

    As for tactics, I've had success forming a line astern, turning off fire at will, sailing past the first French line, and manually having everyone open up on their admiral. He shouldn't be hiding 3 or 4 ships back, that coward.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    East of Augusta Vindelicorum
    Posts
    5,575

    Default Re: Naval Battles: What could work better in the demo

    The thing about boarding that bugs me is that you can’t send a second ship to help. It will not allow it.

    You can disengage from the boarding action and send a different ship but it is complicated and takes time. Also ships have to be beam on to fight a boarding action, if they accidentally ram you can’t then order your ship to board…


    Education: that which reveals to the wise,
    and conceals from the stupid,
    the vast limits of their knowledge.
    Mark Twain

  15. #15
    Member Member Zenicetus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    On a ship, in a storm
    Posts
    906

    Default Re: Naval Battles: What could work better in the demo

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    Zenicetus, you seem to have some knowledge of naval tactics.

    Other than the sailing into the wind part, what recommendations do you have regarding the sea battles?

    Are there other fleet maneuvers that have been overlooked?
    Well see, that's the problem.... anything I know about naval tactics and real-world sailing (and I've never sailed a ship "in anger" other than water balloon fights)... is basically useless in the current game engine. Apparently there is no tactical advantage to the weather gage (attacking upwind from the enemy), and you can't force the enemy into disadvantaged positions because they can steer and move in any directions. That results in a chaotic "anything goes" battle, where you might as well just use game exploits like that anchoring trick. Why bother trying to learn real naval tactics when the game doesn't support it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zerg View Post
    From what I know of naval battles of this time the two sides would line there ships up and sail past each other shooting there guns. There was the tactic of braking the line which Nelson employed at Trafalgar I believe it works by cutting the line isolating some ships up wind of the others allowing the attacker not to fight the whole enemy fleet at once.
    And see, this is what I mean. Take a look at this tactical map of Nelson's famous "breaking the line" maneuver at Trafalgar:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...gar_1200hr.svg

    The wind direction isn't indicated here, but it's blowing from the northwest. Nelson wanted to avoid the kind of indecisive battle that resulted from ships passing each other in parallel lines (wind abeam). He wanted a dust-up in close quarters where the enemy couldn't escape. So what did he do? He used his weather gage advantage to approach from a roughly upwind direction, which forced the enemy fleet to either remain in a line (because they couldn't turn towards him) or flee the battle. The enemy battle line doesn't have the option of an envelopment, with the lead ships and tailing ships turning to the left and trapping Nelson's fleet in the middle. They can't do that, because they'd be sailing directly into the wind! They would be forced to come about (move their bow across the wind) which is a dangerous maneuver in battle because you lose forward speed and you're an easier target for cannon fire. That's why Nelson was able to break the line and force close-quarters combat on his terms. The enemy fleet was forced, by the wind, to remain in that fixed line of battle.

    By the same token, Nelson's tactic here would not have worked if he had approached the enemy battle line from the right side of that map. Then the enemy fleet would have the weather gage, and Nelson's only options would be to form another parallel battle line for a traditional battle, or flee the scene (being downwind is an advantage if you want to cut and run). The wind determines the available tactics, period.

    None of this would work in the current game engine. The AI will just point upwind whenever it wants to, in order to get its cannons on the targeted ships. So what you get is just a chaotic hodge-podge of a battle with no structure imposed by conditions. It's exactly like having a land battle where there is no tactical advantage to being on high ground. Land battle enthusiasts would howl in protest, if CA modeled land battles without that feature.
    Last edited by Zenicetus; 03-01-2009 at 19:52. Reason: typo
    Feaw is a weapon.... wise genewuhs use weuuhw! -- Jebe the Tyrant

  16. #16

    Default Re: Naval Battles: What could work better in the demo

    I'd like to think that if they removed weather gage to make it simpler, that one might be able to mod it back in. Somebody smarter than me will have to work on that.

  17. #17
    Member Member Zenicetus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    On a ship, in a storm
    Posts
    906

    Default Re: Naval Battles: What could work better in the demo

    It might be possible to mod the weather gage and enforced taking back in, since they apparently started with a more realistic model. But it would just be a massive player exploit, if the AI can't handle it. I don't know if that can be modded. I guess we'll see. Maybe the final game will be different from the demo, but from CA's posts on this, it seems this is the direction they wanted to go.

    Right now I'm mostly interested in finding out whether there is a penalty in the campaign game for bypassing (auto-calculting) the sea battles, so they can be approached on a purely strategic level like the earlier TW games.
    Feaw is a weapon.... wise genewuhs use weuuhw! -- Jebe the Tyrant

  18. #18
    Slixpoitation Member A Very Super Market's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada, North America, Terra, Sol, Milky Way, Local Cluster, Universe
    Posts
    3,700

    Default Re: Naval Battles: What could work better in the demo

    Auto-calc usually results in a lot of the enemy getting away...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    WELCOME TO AVSM
    Cool store, bro! I want some ham.
    No ham, pepsi.
    They make deli slices of frozen pepsi now? Awesome!
    You also need to purchase a small freezer for storage of your pepsi.
    It runs on batteries. You'll need a few.
    Uhh, I guess I won't have pepsi then. Do you have change for a twenty?
    You can sift through the penny jar
    ALL WILL BE CONTINUED

    - Proud Horseman of the Presence

  19. #19

    Default Re: Naval Battles: What could work better in the demo

    @ Zenicetus - very nice explanation of the tactics at Trafalgar, and how they were dictated by the wind factor.

    There are a couple of good accounts here and here

    This animated map of Trafalgar is quite good fun too.

  20. #20
    Member Member Tsavong's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    258

    Red face Re: Naval Battles: What could work better in the demo

    Oops i maide an error in my post i said isolate up wind not down lol

  21. #21
    Member Member Elmar Bijlsma's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    236

    Default Re: Naval Battles: What could work better in the demo

    I was somewhat surprised that a fleet in Line Astern isn't capable of changing to line abreast in one smooth move.

    What happens is:
    |
    |
    |
    |
    becomes:
    ||||


    while I would think would be more desirable to have the following happen:

    |
    |
    |
    |
    become:
    -
    -
    -
    -

    the latter is much faster to execute.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO