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Thread: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

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    Haruhiist Member Zett's Avatar
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    Default Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    I want to know your opinion about that topic. Would you like to see Hoplites with low density to present their way of fighting better? And which units should get it and which not?

    The density defines the space that a single soldier of a units needs. A lower density means, that the soldiers of a unit stand closer to each other (screenshoots). The density also influences the performance of a unit, a lower density makes the unit slightly (my impression) better in battle.

    Units with lower density in the Density Mod 0.2 link (savegame compatible)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Hoplitai Haploi (Greek Levy Hoplites) - 0.25



    Hoplitai (Greek Classical Hoplites) - 0.23



    Syrakosioi Hoplitai (Syracusan Hoplites) - 0.3



    Massaliotai Hoplitai (Massilian Medium Hoplites) - 0.23



    Iphikratous Hoplitai (Greek Hoplite Phalanx) - 0.23



    Thorakitai Hoplitai (Greek Heavy Hoplite Phalanx) - 0.2



    Epilektoi Hoplitai - 0.2



    Spartiatai Hoplitai (Spartan Hoplites) - 0.2



    Somatophylakes Strategou (Greek General) - 0.2




    Triarii (Early) - 0.2





    Hypaspistai - 0.2





    Basilikon Agema (Royal Guards) - 0.2





    Poeni Citizen Militia - Mishteret Izrahim Feenikim - 0.25



    Liby-Phoenician Infantry (early) - Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Mookdamim - 0.23



    Liby-Phoenician Heavy Infantry (late) - Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Meshoorianim 0.23



    Dorkim Kdoshim (Sacred Band Phalanx) - 0.2



    Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim (Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry) - 0.2





    Baktrion Agema (Baktrian Royal Guard) - 0.2



    Hoplitai Indohellenikoi (Indo-Hellenic Medium Infantry) - 0.23



    Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai (Indo-Greek Noble Hoplites) - 0.2





    Agema Hellenikon (Indo-Greek Royal Guard) - 0.2



    Hoplitai Hellenikon (Saka Heavy Hoplites) - 0.23





    Ischyroi Orditon (Elite Dacian Infantry) - 0.2



    Getikoi Stratiotai (Dacian Light Phalanx) - 0.23



    Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai (Dacian Heavy Phalanx) - 0.23





    Speutagardaz (Germanic Pikemen) - 0.2





    Mori Gaesum (Helvetii Phalanx) - 0.2



    Appea Gaedotos (Alpine Phalanx) - 0.23






    Screenshots
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spartiatai Hoplitai with 0.2 density, notice that they are already 'sitting in eachother' while running (doesn't look good IMO)


    Spartiatai Hoplitai while charging, notice that the collisions are now irrelevant (you can not see them)


    Spartiatai Hoplitai fighting in close formation


    Epilektoi Hoplitai with 0.23, they still 'sitting in each other' while running


    Epilektoi Hoplitai fighting some Roman scum Romani, notice how nice they fight close to each other, even with guardmode off


    Epilektoi Hoplitai with 0.4 density (standard)


    Hoplitai with 0.25 density, still some collisions while runnig (0.23 or 0.25 should be the minimum)


    Hoplitai while charging (beautiful)


    Hoplitai Haploi with 0.3 while running (notice, that is the running animation, which is only slightly different from the charging animation, why do the other Hoplites doesn't have this "running animation"? IMO its better then the spear dragging)


    Hoplitai Haploi (0.3) and Hoplitai (0.25) while fighting, looser formation then the Spartiatai Hoplitai, but still closer then the Epilektoi Hoplitai with 0.4 (standard)


    Syrakosioi Hoplitai with 0.4 density (standard) while running
    for more screenshots go to post #74

    (please move this to the Unoffical Modding Projects)
    Last edited by Zett; 03-09-2009 at 19:30. Reason: Last update 09-04-2009


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  2. #2
    a.k.a. Burebista Member Βελισάριος's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    I'll be following this closely, as I am interested in implementing some changes in the Legion vs. Phalanx tournament regarding this issue.
    To settle the deal between Romans and Greeks once and for all... both Italy and Greece are in deep s*** at the moment. Do you really think who had the biggest spear in antiquity makes any difference?

  3. #3
    Legatvs Member SwissBarbar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    Very interesting! Here's my list.


    yes

    Hypaspistai
    Baktrion Agema
    Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai
    Hoplitai Haploi
    Hoplitai
    Kardaka Arteshtar (Persian Hoplites)
    Liby-Phoenician Infantry (early and late)
    Poeni Citizen Militia (NOT SURE)
    Epilektoi Hoplitai
    Spartiatai Hoplitai
    Somatophylakes Strategou (KH)
    Triarii - Only Camillan
    Hoplitai Troglodutikes
    Hoplitai Hellenikon
    Agema Hellenikon
    Massaliotai Hoplitai
    Syrakosioi Hoplitai



    No

    Thorakitai
    Barbarian kinds of Phalanxes (Helveti, Dacian..etc.)
    Ekdromoi Hoplitai - they are meant to hunt down Peltastai, they don't need too tight formation, so they can gain speed
    Gestikapoinann - Large shields, but I don't see them in a Phalanx
    Peltastai Makedonikoi - Peltastai after all.

    - No units with javelins in general, they would need space to throw -


    Looking forward to seeing screenshots =)
    Last edited by SwissBarbar; 03-02-2009 at 16:07.
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  4. #4
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    Personally I'm for a higher density, though testing should be done if you want to do it for a MP tournament. Some other stat might need to be changed too.

    Also Syrakousian hoplites fight in a looser order than thier other counterparts adn thus shouldn't get it. Not sure about the Massilian hoplites to I imagine them fighting in a looser order as well. Barbarian phalanxes or shieldwall should get it as well as they also used tight fighting orders. Of course testing could be used and see for gradations in density.

    My two cents,
    -moros

  5. #5
    Haruhiist Member Zett's Avatar
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    Default AW: Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    Quote Originally Posted by SwissBarbar View Post
    Very interesting! Here's my list.

    No

    Thorakitai
    Barbarian kinds of Phalanxes (Helveti, Dacian..etc.)
    Ekdromoi Hoplitai - they are meant to hunt down Peltastai, they don't need too tight formation, so they can gain speed
    Gestikapoinann - Large shields, but I don't see them in a Phalanx
    Peltastai Makedonikoi - Peltastai after all.

    - No units with javelins in general, they would need space to throw -
    I agree with that, but what about Dorkim Kdoshim - (Sacred Band Phalanx)? I'm not sure about them...

    Quote Originally Posted by Moros View Post
    Barbarian phalanxes or shieldwall should get it as well as they also used tight fighting orders.
    Ok, lets leave all Barbarian phalanxes and the sacred band out (for the moment). We should first care about all Hoplitai units + Thorakitai Hoplita, Iphikratous Hoplitai, Basilikon Agema, Hoplitai Indohellenikoi.
    Last edited by Zett; 03-02-2009 at 16:19.


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    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: AW: Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    Of course there would need to be gradations. I do however think that someone needs to fraps one of these and show us or we could create a thread in the mods forum and make a mod based on this idea.

    Don't forget those the KH Iph-type Phalanxes.
    Last edited by antisocialmunky; 03-02-2009 at 16:21.
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    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: AW: Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    What happened to the delete option?
    Last edited by antisocialmunky; 03-02-2009 at 16:21.
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    Member Member Phalanx300's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    Yes! I would totally support it. Give it to all units on the list, except:

    The Ekdromoi, they were used to chase skirmishers and would thus not fight in the Phalanx.

    The Thorakitai, they didn't fought in the Phalanx as far as I'm aware.

    Units to further include:

    The Hoplitai Hellenikoi, a Hoplite unit for Saka Rauka I believe with scale armour.

    Units which previously had the vanilla Hoplite Phalanx.

    And other units which fought in a dense shieldwall or Phalanx, like the Germanic spearmen, swordsmen and pikemen.

    I also really hope that this can also be included for stardard EB!

  9. #9
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx300 View Post
    I also really hope that this can also be included for stardard EB!
    There were plans if I'm not mistaken.

  10. #10
    Member Member Phalanx300's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    Interesting, well seeing all the solutions to make a accurate shieldwall/phalanx when not using a formation. This one is probably the best and most historical.

  11. #11
    Haruhiist Member Zett's Avatar
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    Default AW: Re: AW: Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky View Post
    I do however think that someone needs to fraps one of these and show us or we could create a thread in the mods forum and make a mod based on this idea.
    EDU: http://files.filefront.com/export+de.../fileinfo.html
    Hoplitai Haploi, Massilian Medium Hoplites, Poeni Citizen Militia, Ekdromoi Hoplitai (sorry, will be changed), Red Sea Hoplites (sorry will be changed) and Iphikratous Hoplitai have 0.3 density
    Classicals, KH elite Hoplites, Thorakitai Hoplitai + Basilikon Agema (Ptolemaioi) ,Baktrian elite Hoplites, Syracuse Hoplites (sorry, will be changed), Trarii and Liby-Phoenician Infantry (early/late) have 0.25 density

    Perhaps someone want to do some tests, if I remember correctly, that was a SP EDU i made some time ago (last year or something like that, right after EB 1.2 was released).


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    Haruhiist Member Zett's Avatar
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    Default AW: Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx300 View Post
    The Hoplitai Hellenikoi, a Hoplite unit for Saka Rauka I believe with scale armour.
    Are you sure about this guys?


    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx300 View Post
    And other units which fought in a dense shieldwall or Phalanx, like the Germanic spearmen, swordsmen and pikemen.
    Please lets leave the barbarian phalanxes out at first, I'm overflooded at the moment (two EDU windows, several Windows of the .org and my dictoinary). Foot must be some kind of God to manage this kind of work every day...

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    What about the Massaliotai Hoplitai and the Red Sea Hoplites, should they get a lower density (at all, but especially at Phalanx300)?
    Last edited by Zett; 03-02-2009 at 17:07.


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    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: AW: Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    Massalians I'd wait with them. Red Sea hoplites should get it IMO.

  14. #14
    Legatvs Member SwissBarbar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    I changed my mind concerning the Massaliotai Hoplitai. They fight with longswords in melee and are of "wild" Celtic origin, and therefore don't fight in SUCH a dense formation as the Greek Hoplitai do.



    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx300 View Post
    Yes! I would totally support it. Give it to all units on the list, except:

    The Ekdromoi, they were used to chase skirmishers and would thus not fight in the Phalanx.

    The Thorakitai, they didn't fought in the Phalanx as far as I'm aware.

    Units to further include:

    The Hoplitai Hellenikoi, a Hoplite unit for Saka Rauka I believe with scale armour.

    Units which previously had the vanilla Hoplite Phalanx.

    And other units which fought in a dense shieldwall or Phalanx, like the Germanic spearmen, swordsmen and pikemen.

    I also really hope that this can also be included for stardard EB!

    Did you refer to my list? Because actually I totally agree with you concerning the Thorakitai, Ekdromoi and Germanic dudes. I have them under "no" - meaning: nope, they don't need more density.
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    Haruhiist Member Zett's Avatar
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    Default AW: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    I added some screenshots (see first post). I gave Spartiatai Hoplitai 0.2 density, Epilektoi Holitai 0.23 (yep I use the bodygardskin cause it looks cooler), Hoplitai 0.25 and the Haploi Hoplitai 0.3, the Syrakosioi Hoplitai are using default density (0.4). Here is the Multiplayer EDU which I used to make the screenshots: link


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    Legatvs Member SwissBarbar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density



    On this pic the overlapping shields are very nice! The only thing I don't like is when they charge. They should keep the shields in front position.
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    Member Member Phalanx300's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    I do think that the Barbarian Phalanxes should also get it, if you read their unit discription you'll see that it are essantially shield walls, at least that is the case with the Sweboz.

    For the Syracusians 0.3 would be better, they fought in a more loose formation but it was still a Phalanx (though their version was more of a hedgehog kind).

    And the Massilians, I'd give them the same as the classical ones.


    Are you sure about this guys?
    Yea, their unit discription says that they fought the same as other Hoplites, only in service of Saka Rauka with scale armour. Their aspis also prooves it.

    What about the Massaliotai Hoplitai and the Red Sea Hoplites, should they get a lower density (at all, but especially at Phalanx300)?
    Massilians, I'd put them the same as classical Hoplites. And Red Sea Hoplites, I don't know how dense they are in standard formation. They were used for front line combat I think against Africans, I'd say 0.3 then if they should get it?

    And the Triarii should get 0.23, they were elite infantry after all.

    And about Spartans, I would let them stay at 0.2, they had more intensive training then the Epileptikoi of other cities(in my opinion). The Agoge at this time still was the hardest training in the world.
    Last edited by Phalanx300; 03-02-2009 at 20:57.

  18. #18
    Legatvs Member SwissBarbar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    Then I misread your post
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    Member Member Phalanx300's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    Hehe . Hoplite Phalanxes were essentially also shield walls, Germanics also formed shield walls so I see no reason to apply it to them also(and other shieldwall/previous Phalanx units).

  20. #20
    Barcid Member soup_alex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    At the risk of sounding like a complete idiot:

    What difference does it (spacing) make in the Rome engine?
    (AFAIK, the negatives outweigh the positives: more limited frontage and exposing your flanks (1v1), and greater vulnerability to missile fire? Do units with tighter spacing share defence bonuses for shields? Or is it about concentration, i.e. more tightly-packed units can direct more attacks and be targetted by fewer opponents in return?)

    Also, what is the standard unit of measurement for spacing (I'm guessing the "TW metre")?

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    Default Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    Anyone know how this method compares to TWFanatic's hoplite mod?
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  22. #22
    Member Member Phalanx300's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    soup, it makes them stay closer together, thus them being able to strike more enemies from the front, and easier enveloped as well.

    mlc, I think that it is better, as the pushing with short_pike is a tad extreme.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    Quote Originally Posted by SwissBarbar View Post
    On this pic the overlapping shields are very nice! The only thing I don't like is when they charge. They should keep the shields in front position.
    I suppose it is actually quite realistic that they _don't_ keep the shields perfectly right in front of them when charging. I mean, think about it: if you advance step by step it's possible (with a lot of training) to keep that big shield reasonably steadily in front of you; but if you are charging? I'd imagine that your shield would get in the way of your legs (knees, actually), no?
    Last edited by Tellos Athenaios; 03-03-2009 at 01:55.
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  24. #24
    Legatvs Member SwissBarbar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    I suppose it is actually quite realistic that they _don't_ keep the shields perfectly right in front of them when charging. I mean, think about it: if you advance step by step it's possible (with a lot of training) to keep that big shield reasonably steadily in front of you; but if you are charging? I'd imagine that your shield would get in the way of your legs (knees, actually), no?
    Well, that exactly is the point. Hoplitai do not charge like a bunch of barbaroi, they advance slower and in Formation. Therefore I'd like to see them attacking slower
    Last edited by SwissBarbar; 03-03-2009 at 07:10.
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    Haruhiist Member Zett's Avatar
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    Default AW: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    What about the Basilikon Agema (Royal Guards)?
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The Ptolemaioi had a problem with their elite infantry from the start. Namely, they didn't have any, since the Seleukidoi and Makedonians took what remained of Alexandros' Hypaspistai. Therefore, they had to build a unit of royal heavy infantry to compete with their rivals. Many things were tried, but ultimately the result was the Basilikon Agema, the Royal Guard. They are armed with hoplites spears and thureos shields and armored in mail, making them more mobile but less well armored than other heavy infantry. They also carry a short sword that was used rather like the Romaioi used theirs. This led to the misidentification of these troops by Latin authors as a sort of imitation legion. The Basilikon Agema is full of good troops, mostly Hellenes and Makedonians with a few Galatai and Kretai. They are an elite infantry, well able to fight in a phalanx and to break the formation and fight with their blades. They are extremely versatile and can be used to good effect by a capable commander.

    Historically, the Basilikon Agema were the elite guard of the Ptolemaic king. They went everywhere with their king, and were instrumental in putting down several native revolts along with the Galatai. They outfought the natives with creative tactics that worked well against other successor pikemen as well. Most of the unit was not present at Raphia, but was used to good effect against the Seleukidai on other occasions.
    The unit descrition says nothing about fighting as a phalanx (only fighting with a dory spear). They only share the same model with the Thorakitai Hoplitai, but IMO we should delete them from the unit list. They fought as Royal Guards and elite infantery, they do not need a lower density.

    About the Massaliotai:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Massalia is a city in an interesting position. It is a Greek city, but with a substantial Celtic population and relations with neighboring Celtic tribes. Its soldiers have adjusted themselves with some Celtic gear to make them of greater use in a close melee if the phalanx is abandonned.(which means they fought in a phalanx) They make use of a superior Celtic longsword in close quarters, able to handle themselves better in such situations compared to others with lesser weapons.

    Historically, Massalia was home to a substantial Greco-Celt population who were attracted to the temple of Herakles there. The inhabitants of Massalia remained largely Greek in culture, but trading, intermarrying, and fighting with nearby Celtic tribes led to crossovers in the equipment carried by each side. The soldiers of Massalia, for example, began using Celtic-style longswords and occassionally other pieces of equipment. They fought, otherwise, in a manner more typical of Hellenic soldiers.
    I think we should give them a density of 0.3. Same level as native greek Haploi Hoplitai, to simulate the celtic influence.

    About the Syrakosioi:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    These men hail from one of the greatest poleis built by Hellenes, that of Syrakousai. The Syrakosioi Hoplitai are equipped with Italo-Attic helmets, lamellate cuirasses, armoured pteryges, aspis shield and greaves, while they carry a longer spear than most hoplitai use and a short sword for close melee. Centuries of warfare against armies different from that found in Hellas proper have changed the Syrakosioi Hoplitai's equipment and tactics somewhat compared to their �mainland cousins�. They are still meant to pin enemy troops down for others to hack to pieces, but unlike other Hellenic spearmen they can fare relatively well in close melee, using their shortswords to stab quicky beneath their aspis shields.

    Historically, Syrakousai was among the greatest cities in the Hellenic world and who had for centuries waged wars against many enemies, mainly Carthage. Syrakousai had arguably the greatest army numerically among the Hellenic city-states and its Hoplitai formed the nucleus. The Syrakosioi Hoplitai were armed and fought as regular Hoplitai, although they adjusted themselves to the more free flowing and more organized forms of western infantry warfare (as in west of Greece). While in Greece proper it was largely hoplite against hoplite or against poor non-Hellenic infantry (the Thracians being the notable exception), in the western Mediterranean Syrakousai had to face Carthaginians in the west and Ligurian, Bruttian and Lucanian pirates and mercenaries from the north and also Illyrians, Gauls and other peoples who raided Sicily fairly regularly when they had a chance, which mostly meant whenever Syrakousai and Carthage were at war.
    Syrakosioi Hoplitai fought in a less dense formation than normal for Hoplitai, but with longer spears, which they wielded with underhand thrusts. This meant that they could pin down enemy infantry with a sort of "hedgehog shieldwall" for the heavy Epilektoi soldiers to break through the middle, and cavalry to hit the flanks. In addition they also dropped the xiphos sword in favour of a shortsword made for stabbing, which they used to stab beneath their aspis shields, a technique Syrakousai adopted alongside the hoplitai of Taras anes who were more adept at close combat melee than the soldiers fielded in Greece.
    They fought in a less dense formation, therefore they shouldn't get a lower density.

    About the Hoplitai Troglodutikes (Red Sea Hoplites):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Hoplitai Troglodutikes (Erythraian Sea Hoplites) are mostly Hellenic colonists who were drawn to the Erythraian Sea coast. After initial exploration Ptolemaioi founded colonies in there to hunt elephants and trade with the natives and as far as India. Local garisson forces took part in those hunts and many of the veterans remained on those colonies after retiring. As in each Hellenic polis, a local force of hoplites would be summoned at time of need. Having completed the rigorous "ephebike askesis" they would be ready to fight against their enemies and as such the rigorous demands for citizenship have been lowered to whomever is available. The enemies aren't hoplites or Phallangitai. They are the skirmishers and spearmen of the Troglodytai, the fierce archers of Meroe and Inner Aithiopia, and maybe even the lightly armored but deadly Sabaioi. Hellenic discipline and courage can win the day, but not by underestimation of those enemies. Against those, while retaining the same offensive equipment, (spear and aspis shield), bronze muscle cuirass and linothorax have been dumped in favor of lighter quilted armour. It is easier to wear in the tropics as ancient Aigyptioi had proven. No pteryges, as they add to weight and can raise body temperature. A trusty "machaira" compliments their equipment too. Their helmet is an evolved Boiotian, the ideal helmet for providing some sort of eye protection in the desert and african coast. Their aspis has no bronze coating, relying on elephant skin instead. Natives had been using such an arrangement, for some time. Now Hoplitai Troglodutikes must do the same.

    Historically Ptolemaioi were very interested in the southern regions of their domain. Akte Troglodutike or the coast of the Troglodutes was perhaps the "wild, unexplored" frontier of the time. The rising elephant hunts as well as the trade with Sabaioi and Indoi, led to the founding of a series of Colonies, with Filotera, "founded by Satyr [a Ptolemaioi general] when he was sent hunting elephants in Troglodytiki" (Strabo,16,4-5) being the first. Soon enough, Arsinoe Troglodytiki, Berenike Troglodytiki, Ptolemais of the Elephantotheron (Elephant hunters) were founded. As frontiermen always do, those people cared more for what someone could do, not the purity of his Hellenic blood. Thus Hellenised Aigyptians and other nationals could be there and perfectly fit in. However rich and promising their situation was, their enemies were at the doors as to a Troglodyte which many of them were, the Colonists were godly rich. The local hoplites fight as ekdromoi mostly, since this is the only way they can effectively deal with the fluid battlefield environment in that area. Colonies in that region existed for many centuries and that was due, in no small part to the ability of their inhabitants to defend them.
    The description says, that they fought as Ekdromoi ("skirmisher hunter"). They had to be fast to catch up with skirmishers, Hoplitephalanx was too slow to do so. IMO they should stay as they are, no lower density.
    Last edited by Zett; 03-03-2009 at 07:24.


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  26. #26
    Legatvs Member SwissBarbar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    Right you are, but concerning the Massaliotai: They abandon the Phalany pretty always as melee starts ;-)
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    Haruhiist Member Zett's Avatar
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    Default AW: Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    Quote Originally Posted by SwissBarbar View Post
    Right you are, but concerning the Massaliotai: They abandon the Phalany pretty always as melee starts ;-)
    I want to take them out too, but Phalanx300 will kill me if I do so.

    What about the Hypaspistai?
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Hail, Basileu! Before you stand your Hypaspistai: the elite of the elite and your personal guard. They are armed and armored in the finest equipment of the traditional hoplite: aspis, greaves, cuirass, helmet, spear, and sword. They are the best and richest of your men; far too worthy to risk in unwise actions. And yet they are without a doubt capable of multiplying the power of your army. Forming the right wing of the battle line or leading the assault on fortifications their heavy armor and weapons allow them to stand against even the hardiest of opponents and triumph with ease. They should be deployed where the fighting will be at its absolute thickest or nearby to fight with and to protect you.

    Historically, the Hypaspistai (shield-bearers) first appear with Alexandros at the beginning of his reign as his elite troops and bodyguard. He used them extensively throughout his anabasis for special missions, assault of fortifications, and in support of light troops in rough terrain; however, details of the unit seem to disappear by the time Alexandros reaches India and remain as such until appearing in various sources for the three remaining Diadochoi kingdoms in different forms and perhaps briefly in Epeiros with Pyrrhos. Such examples of their deployment count them as possibly numbering a fifth of the 10,000 Arygraspides corps of the Seleukid kings or as the military police and closest guard of the Makedonian kings. Yet, despite their prowess, the Hypaspistai were either forced to evolve past the antiquated hoplite model as in the east or vanish with the fall of their kingdom as in the west.

    They fought mostly as assaulttroops and mobile elite troops. They carried only the equipment of Hoplites, but were used for support missions, if they should hold a line, they were deployed as Arygraspides. So I think we should let them as they are, no lower density. They have very good stats too, so giving them a lower density would make them even stronger.
    Last edited by Zett; 03-03-2009 at 07:50.


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  28. #28
    Member Member Phalanx300's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    I want to take them out too, but Phalanx300 will kill me if I do so.
    I will indeed!

    Though for the Massilians, they were Greek colonist with Celtic influenced armour. I don't see how that would mean are looser Phalanx. I would keep them at 0.25 personally.

    What about the Hypaspistai?
    They fought as elite Hoplites, thus putting them in 0.23 would be better.

    Alexander(at the part you bolded) used them as assault troops, however at EB time that role was taken over by the Peltastai Makedonikoi.

    If they fought as Hoplites we should show that, no matter if they were used different before EB time or sometimes used as other units(then you might as well take those other units).

    What about the Basilikon Agema (Royal Guards)?
    I'd say 0.23, they were used like Iphikratous Hoplites and were a elite unit.

    About the Syrakosioi:
    They should definately get a looser formation! They still fought in a Phalanx(it's in the bolded part, it says they fought like Hoplites and still in a Phalanx), just in a less dense one. 0.3 would fit best, or possibly even 0.35.

    About the Hoplitai Troglodutikes (Red Sea Hoplites):
    Ok I agree on this, if they were used to catch Skirmishers then they fought as individual units.

    The Iphikratous should get 0.25(as they fought as ordinary Hoplites in a reformed Phalanx, and the Thorakitai Hoplitai should get 0.23 as well, they were a elite unit after all. Even able to break the Roman left in battle!

    The early Triarii should get 0.23 as well, they were a elite Hoplite unit.

    Poeni Citizen Militia should get 0.3 as they were levy Hoplites.

    The Poenician-Lybian Hoplites(early and late) should get 0.25 as they fought as ordinary Hoplites.

    The Sacred Band should definately get 0.23, they were a elite Poeni Phalanx. They even reminded the greek colonist of the Theban sacred band, that should say enough.

  29. #29
    EBII Bricklayer Member V.T. Marvin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx300 View Post
    Though for the Massilians, they were Greek colonist with Celtic influenced armour. I don't see how that would mean are looser Phalanx. I would keep them at 0.25 personally.
    The trouble with Massilians (and Baktrian Agema and like units too) is that the engine does not change the spacing when using different weapons (i.e. spear vs. sword). Therefore the spacing of such particular "double-wielding" unit should represent a sensible compromise between dense order of hoplite phalanx and looser order needed to use the swords (and especially Celtic longswords of Massilians!!!) to their full potential.

    My point is: yes, there is a reason to give Massilians closer order similar to other hoplites BUT the incredibility of fighting with longswords in such a closer order is overruling consideration and they should stay as they are, IMHO.

    (Quite frankly, to me it seems that even current spacing of the Massilians is too close for longsword fighters, but I understand that this precisely because they are hoplite phalanx as well at the same time.)

  30. #30
    Member Member Phalanx300's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    In earlier times Hoplites also had long swords, thats no reason that you aren't able to form a Phalanx. After all in the Phalanx the best weapon is a short dagger like the Spartans eventually used. Some Hoplites also used axes, would they also need more space?

    The sword is a secondary weapon, when one drew it out it didn't mean that he went out of formation and went berserk at the front rank.


    Also another unit for the density is the elite Phoenician-Lybian unit of Carthage (those with the axes on their shields).

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