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    EBII Bricklayer Member V.T. Marvin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai and 0.2 density

    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx300 View Post
    The sword is a secondary weapon, when one drew it out it didn't mean that he went out of formation and went berserk at the front rank.
    I am not suggesting any going berserk. I just maintain, that to use a long sword you need a room around yourself, otherwise you will be either confined to prodding (sensless when you have a spear as well and more effective for such fight), or you will injure your buddies around you, or be unable to perform attacks and parries at all and be killed quickly. In fact, you do yourself recognize that in confined space of hoplite phalanx there is not enough room for long blades:
    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx300 View Post
    After all in the Phalanx the best weapon is a short dagger like the Spartans eventually used.
    Yet the Massilians do have longswords, therefore they cannot have close order phalanx at the same time in RTW engine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx300 View Post
    In earlier times Hoplites also had long swords, thats no reason that you aren't able to form a Phalanx. (...) Some Hoplites also used axes, would they also need more space?
    This is something different altogether. In real life the phalanx will be able to switch between close order and loose order - either purposefully or involuntarily due to melee. Therefore in real life it was only sensible to have a backup weapon (sword, axe, dagger, etc.) in case that things went wrong and the phalanx was broken.
    However it is not happening in RTW engine (or if it does, it is buggy) and most EB hoplites are therefore represented as "spear-only" units. That is all right and they SHOULD have their spacing adjusted accordingly.
    BUT for some units using those "secondary" weapons was considered so important that these were designed as "spear-and-sword" units. Now it is for these units (and most notably the Massilians) that I am arguing that making them "hoplite-phalanx-pure-and-dense" is inappropriate, because they would not be able to use their swords in a realistic manner in so dense formation.
    It is a matter of balance really: making them dense would make them more effective hoplites but totally unrealistic swordsmen...

    ************************

    Another option which should be considered in connection with the overall purpose of better balancing the hoplites is to increase a bit their unit mass. That should give them more push through the enemy formations, which is, I think, what they were actually doing and which might help to achieve the objective without too much undesirable effects.
    Last edited by V.T. Marvin; 03-03-2009 at 15:33.

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