Hoplitai and 0.2 density

[Zett]

I want to know your opinion about that topic. Would you like to see Hoplites with low density to present their way of fighting better? And which units should get it and which not?

The density defines the space that a single soldier of a units needs. A lower density means, that the soldiers of a unit stand closer to each other (screenshoots). The density also influences the performance of a unit, a lower density makes the unit slightly (my impression) better in battle.

Units with lower density in the Density Mod 0.2 link (savegame compatible)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hoplitai Haploi (Greek Levy Hoplites) - 0.25



Hoplitai (Greek Classical Hoplites) - 0.23



Syrakosioi Hoplitai (Syracusan Hoplites) - 0.3



Massaliotai Hoplitai (Massilian Medium Hoplites) - 0.23



Iphikratous Hoplitai (Greek Hoplite Phalanx) - 0.23



Thorakitai Hoplitai (Greek Heavy Hoplite Phalanx) - 0.2



Epilektoi Hoplitai - 0.2



Spartiatai Hoplitai (Spartan Hoplites) - 0.2



Somatophylakes Strategou (Greek General) - 0.2




Triarii (Early) - 0.2





Hypaspistai - 0.2





Basilikon Agema (Royal Guards) - 0.2





Poeni Citizen Militia - Mishteret Izrahim Feenikim - 0.25



Liby-Phoenician Infantry (early) - Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Mookdamim - 0.23



Liby-Phoenician Heavy Infantry (late) - Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Meshoorianim 0.23



Dorkim Kdoshim (Sacred Band Phalanx) - 0.2



Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim (Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry) - 0.2





Baktrion Agema (Baktrian Royal Guard) - 0.2



Hoplitai Indohellenikoi (Indo-Hellenic Medium Infantry) - 0.23



Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai (Indo-Greek Noble Hoplites) - 0.2





Agema Hellenikon (Indo-Greek Royal Guard) - 0.2



Hoplitai Hellenikon (Saka Heavy Hoplites) - 0.23





Ischyroi Orditon (Elite Dacian Infantry) - 0.2



Getikoi Stratiotai (Dacian Light Phalanx) - 0.23



Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai (Dacian Heavy Phalanx) - 0.23





Speutagardaz (Germanic Pikemen) - 0.2





Mori Gaesum (Helvetii Phalanx) - 0.2



Appea Gaedotos (Alpine Phalanx) - 0.23

Screenshots

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spartiatai Hoplitai with 0.2 density, notice that they are already 'sitting in eachother' while running (doesn't look good IMO)


Spartiatai Hoplitai while charging, notice that the collisions are now irrelevant (you can not see them)


Spartiatai Hoplitai fighting in close formation


Epilektoi Hoplitai with 0.23, they still 'sitting in each other' while running


Epilektoi Hoplitai fighting some Roman scum Romani, notice how nice they fight close to each other, even with guardmode off


Epilektoi Hoplitai with 0.4 density (standard)


Hoplitai with 0.25 density, still some collisions while runnig (0.23 or 0.25 should be the minimum)


Hoplitai while charging (beautiful)


Hoplitai Haploi with 0.3 while running (notice, that is the running animation, which is only slightly different from the charging animation, why do the other Hoplites doesn't have this "running animation"? IMO its better then the spear dragging)


Hoplitai Haploi (0.3) and Hoplitai (0.25) while fighting, looser formation then the Spartiatai Hoplitai, but still closer then the Epilektoi Hoplitai with 0.4 (standard)


Syrakosioi Hoplitai with 0.4 density (standard) while running

for more screenshots go to post #74

(please move this to the Unoffical Modding Projects)

[Βελισάριος]

I'll be following this closely, as I am interested in implementing some changes in the Legion vs. Phalanx tournament regarding this issue.

[SwissBarbar]

Very interesting! Here's my list.


yes

Hypaspistai
Baktrion Agema
Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai
Hoplitai Haploi
Hoplitai
Kardaka Arteshtar (Persian Hoplites)
Liby-Phoenician Infantry (early and late)
Poeni Citizen Militia (NOT SURE)
Epilektoi Hoplitai
Spartiatai Hoplitai
Somatophylakes Strategou (KH)
Triarii - Only Camillan
Hoplitai Troglodutikes
Hoplitai Hellenikon
Agema Hellenikon
Massaliotai Hoplitai
Syrakosioi Hoplitai



No

Thorakitai
Barbarian kinds of Phalanxes (Helveti, Dacian..etc.)
Ekdromoi Hoplitai - they are meant to hunt down Peltastai, they don't need too tight formation, so they can gain speed
Gestikapoinann - Large shields, but I don't see them in a Phalanx
Peltastai Makedonikoi - Peltastai after all.

- No units with javelins in general, they would need space to throw -


Looking forward to seeing screenshots =)

[Moros]

Personally I'm for a higher density, though testing should be done if you want to do it for a MP tournament. Some other stat might need to be changed too.

Also Syrakousian hoplites fight in a looser order than thier other counterparts adn thus shouldn't get it. Not sure about the Massilian hoplites to I imagine them fighting in a looser order as well. Barbarian phalanxes or shieldwall should get it as well as they also used tight fighting orders. Of course testing could be used and see for gradations in density.

My two cents,
-moros

[Zett]

Very interesting! Here's my list.

No

Thorakitai
Barbarian kinds of Phalanxes (Helveti, Dacian..etc.)
Ekdromoi Hoplitai - they are meant to hunt down Peltastai, they don't need too tight formation, so they can gain speed
Gestikapoinann - Large shields, but I don't see them in a Phalanx
Peltastai Makedonikoi - Peltastai after all.

- No units with javelins in general, they would need space to throw -

I agree with that, but what about Dorkim Kdoshim - (Sacred Band Phalanx)? I'm not sure about them...

Barbarian phalanxes or shieldwall should get it as well as they also used tight fighting orders.

Ok, lets leave all Barbarian phalanxes and the sacred band out (for the moment). We should first care about all Hoplitai units + Thorakitai Hoplita, Iphikratous Hoplitai, Basilikon Agema, Hoplitai Indohellenikoi.

[antisocialmunky]

Of course there would need to be gradations. I do however think that someone needs to fraps one of these and show us or we could create a thread in the mods forum and make a mod based on this idea.

Don't forget those the KH Iph-type Phalanxes.

[Zett]

I do however think that someone needs to fraps one of these and show us or we could create a thread in the mods forum and make a mod based on this idea.

EDU: http://files.filefront.com/export+de.../fileinfo.html
Hoplitai Haploi, Massilian Medium Hoplites, Poeni Citizen Militia, Ekdromoi Hoplitai (sorry, will be changed), Red Sea Hoplites (sorry will be changed) and Iphikratous Hoplitai have 0.3 density
Classicals, KH elite Hoplites, Thorakitai Hoplitai + Basilikon Agema (Ptolemaioi) ,Baktrian elite Hoplites, Syracuse Hoplites (sorry, will be changed), Trarii and Liby-Phoenician Infantry (early/late) have 0.25 density

Perhaps someone want to do some tests, if I remember correctly, that was a SP EDU i made some time ago (last year or something like that, right after EB 1.2 was released).

[antisocialmunky]

What happened to the delete option?

[Phalanx300]

Yes! I would totally support it. Give it to all units on the list, except:

The Ekdromoi, they were used to chase skirmishers and would thus not fight in the Phalanx.

The Thorakitai, they didn't fought in the Phalanx as far as I'm aware.

Units to further include:

The Hoplitai Hellenikoi, a Hoplite unit for Saka Rauka I believe with scale armour.

Units which previously had the vanilla Hoplite Phalanx.

And other units which fought in a dense shieldwall or Phalanx, like the Germanic spearmen, swordsmen and pikemen.

I also really hope that this can also be included for stardard EB!

[mlc82]

Anyone know how this method compares to TWFanatic's hoplite mod?

[Phalanx300]

soup, it makes them stay closer together, thus them being able to strike more enemies from the front, and easier enveloped as well.

mlc, I think that it is better, as the pushing with short_pike is a tad extreme.

[Zett]

First post was updated a while ago, with mod link and unitlist

Units with lower density in the Density Mod 0.2 link

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hoplitai Haploi (Greek Levy Hoplites) - 0.25



Hoplitai (Greek Classical Hoplites) - 0.23



Syrakosioi Hoplitai (Syracusan Hoplites) - 0.3



Massaliotai Hoplitai (Massilian Medium Hoplites) - 0.23



Iphikratous Hoplitai (Greek Hoplite Phalanx) - 0.23



Thorakitai Hoplitai (Greek Heavy Hoplite Phalanx) - 0.2



Epilektoi Hoplitai - 0.2



Spartiatai Hoplitai (Spartan Hoplites) - 0.2



Somatophylakes Strategou (Greek General) - 0.2




Triarii (Early) - 0.2





Hypaspistai - 0.2





Basilikon Agema (Royal Guards) - 0.2





Poeni Citizen Militia - Mishteret Izrahim Feenikim - 0.25



Liby-Phoenician Infantry (early) - Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Mookdamim - 0.23



Liby-Phoenician Heavy Infantry (late) - Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Meshoorianim 0.23



Dorkim Kdoshim (Sacred Band Phalanx) - 0.2



Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim (Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry) - 0.2





Baktrion Agema (Baktrian Royal Guard) - 0.2



Hoplitai Indohellenikoi (Indo-Hellenic Medium Infantry) - 0.23



Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai (Indo-Greek Noble Hoplites) - 0.2





Hoplitai Hellenikon (Saka Heavy Hoplites) - 0.23





Ischyroi Orditon (Elite Dacian Infantry) - 0.2



Getikoi Stratiotai (Dacian Light Phalanx) - 0.23



Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai (Dacian Heavy Phalanx) - 0.23





Speutagardaz (Germanic Pikemen) - 0.2





Mori Gaesum (Helvetii Phalanx) - 0.2



Appea Gaedotos (Alpine Phalanx) - 0.23

[SwissBarbar]

Could you please post some screenshots of some of the units, where they stand in formation and are not moving? That would be nice

[Zett]

Could you please post some screenshots of some of the units, where they stand in formation and are not moving? That would be nice

Battle with lower density (look first post for density values)

Standing units

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Steady units

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Fighting units

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Battle with standard density

Standing units

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Steady units

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Fighting units

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You will notice, that the difference while standing and being steady is quiet small, but the difference while fighting is big. Without lower density the unit "explode" when ordered to attack (except when guardmode is on, first picture at "Fighting units" with standard density). You will also notice, that the Syrakosioi Hoplitai look (with and without lower density) while standing the same, that means that there must be another value (is this the right english word?) in the files to define the dense of a formation. I noticed this phenomenon also by the Ekdromoi, you can give them a lower density in the EDU files, but they still have their lose formation (pherhaps some experienced modder could tell me which other values define the foramtion density of a unit).

And about the balance...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I used in both battles the same tactic (waiting, let them come, guardmode on, after 30 sec. after the fight started turn guardmode off, no outflanking). In the battle with standard density the enemy general died early, but the loses I suffered were still bigger then in the battle with lower density. If the enemy general had not died, I would have lost the battle, while there was no problem in the battle with lower density.

[the man with no name]

Defenitly include this in eb 1.3 plz.

[Phalanx300]

I agree. All Shieldwall/Phalanx units without Phalanx/Dense fighting units should definately have a tighter density.

[keravnos]

First post was updated a while ago, with mod link and unitlist

It seems you forgot the Saka Agema Hellenikon.

Anyways, I do like what you are creating, but I have to be against any effort to insert a "machine gun pilae" on any condition. Pilae were deffinitely dangerous, but not different or better than any of the javs carried back then (only the heavier ones, which too were carried by their enemies, see soliferrum). This means that the stats on missiles are fine as they are.

[Phalanx300]

You're totally right there Keravnos, Pilum were dangerous though that is usually overestimated.

And yeah, totally forgot the Saka Agema Hellenikon Hoplites, how foolish of me.

[Zett]

It seems you forgot the Saka Agema Hellenikon.

They are in since 0.1, its right that they have a extra EDU entry, but I counted them as Baktrion Agema in the unit list. I will edit the first post. done

Ceterum Censeo Romam esse delendam

[lonmzjia]

Question (and sorry if it has been asked): If i change the hoplite densities, will I have to start a new game to have it work / not screw up my current campaigns?

[Woreczko]

No, you don`t have to start a new campaign to make it work :)