Hoplitai and 0.2 density

[SwissBarbar]

On this pic the overlapping shields are very nice! The only thing I don't like is when they charge. They should keep the shields in front position.

[Phalanx300]

I do think that the Barbarian Phalanxes should also get it, if you read their unit discription you'll see that it are essantially shield walls, at least that is the case with the Sweboz.

For the Syracusians 0.3 would be better, they fought in a more loose formation but it was still a Phalanx (though their version was more of a hedgehog kind).

And the Massilians, I'd give them the same as the classical ones.

Are you sure about this guys?

Yea, their unit discription says that they fought the same as other Hoplites, only in service of Saka Rauka with scale armour. Their aspis also prooves it.

What about the Massaliotai Hoplitai and the Red Sea Hoplites, should they get a lower density (at all, but especially at Phalanx300)?

Massilians, I'd put them the same as classical Hoplites. And Red Sea Hoplites, I don't know how dense they are in standard formation. They were used for front line combat I think against Africans, I'd say 0.3 then if they should get it?

And the Triarii should get 0.23, they were elite infantry after all.

And about Spartans, I would let them stay at 0.2, they had more intensive training then the Epileptikoi of other cities(in my opinion). The Agoge at this time still was the hardest training in the world.

[SwissBarbar]

Then I misread your post

[Phalanx300]

Hehe . Hoplite Phalanxes were essentially also shield walls, Germanics also formed shield walls so I see no reason to apply it to them also(and other shieldwall/previous Phalanx units).

[soup_alex]

At the risk of sounding like a complete idiot:

What difference does it (spacing) make in the Rome engine?
(AFAIK, the negatives outweigh the positives: more limited frontage and exposing your flanks (1v1), and greater vulnerability to missile fire? Do units with tighter spacing share defence bonuses for shields? Or is it about concentration, i.e. more tightly-packed units can direct more attacks and be targetted by fewer opponents in return?)

Also, what is the standard unit of measurement for spacing (I'm guessing the "TW metre")?

Cheers.

[Tellos Athenaios]

On this pic the overlapping shields are very nice! The only thing I don't like is when they charge. They should keep the shields in front position.

I suppose it is actually quite realistic that they _don't_ keep the shields perfectly right in front of them when charging. I mean, think about it: if you advance step by step it's possible (with a lot of training) to keep that big shield reasonably steadily in front of you; but if you are charging? I'd imagine that your shield would get in the way of your legs (knees, actually), no?

[SwissBarbar]

I suppose it is actually quite realistic that they _don't_ keep the shields perfectly right in front of them when charging. I mean, think about it: if you advance step by step it's possible (with a lot of training) to keep that big shield reasonably steadily in front of you; but if you are charging? I'd imagine that your shield would get in the way of your legs (knees, actually), no?

Well, that exactly is the point. Hoplitai do not charge like a bunch of barbaroi, they advance slower and in Formation. Therefore I'd like to see them attacking slower

[Zett]

What about the Basilikon Agema (Royal Guards)?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Ptolemaioi had a problem with their elite infantry from the start. Namely, they didn't have any, since the Seleukidoi and Makedonians took what remained of Alexandros' Hypaspistai. Therefore, they had to build a unit of royal heavy infantry to compete with their rivals. Many things were tried, but ultimately the result was the Basilikon Agema, the Royal Guard. They are armed with hoplites spears and thureos shields and armored in mail, making them more mobile but less well armored than other heavy infantry. They also carry a short sword that was used rather like the Romaioi used theirs. This led to the misidentification of these troops by Latin authors as a sort of imitation legion. The Basilikon Agema is full of good troops, mostly Hellenes and Makedonians with a few Galatai and Kretai. They are an elite infantry, well able to fight in a phalanx and to break the formation and fight with their blades. They are extremely versatile and can be used to good effect by a capable commander.

Historically, the Basilikon Agema were the elite guard of the Ptolemaic king. They went everywhere with their king, and were instrumental in putting down several native revolts along with the Galatai. They outfought the natives with creative tactics that worked well against other successor pikemen as well. Most of the unit was not present at Raphia, but was used to good effect against the Seleukidai on other occasions.

The unit descrition says nothing about fighting as a phalanx (only fighting with a dory spear). They only share the same model with the Thorakitai Hoplitai, but IMO we should delete them from the unit list. They fought as Royal Guards and elite infantery, they do not need a lower density.

About the Massaliotai:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Massalia is a city in an interesting position. It is a Greek city, but with a substantial Celtic population and relations with neighboring Celtic tribes. Its soldiers have adjusted themselves with some Celtic gear to make them of greater use in a close melee if the phalanx is abandonned.(which means they fought in a phalanx) They make use of a superior Celtic longsword in close quarters, able to handle themselves better in such situations compared to others with lesser weapons.

Historically, Massalia was home to a substantial Greco-Celt population who were attracted to the temple of Herakles there. The inhabitants of Massalia remained largely Greek in culture, but trading, intermarrying, and fighting with nearby Celtic tribes led to crossovers in the equipment carried by each side. The soldiers of Massalia, for example, began using Celtic-style longswords and occassionally other pieces of equipment. They fought, otherwise, in a manner more typical of Hellenic soldiers.

I think we should give them a density of 0.3. Same level as native greek Haploi Hoplitai, to simulate the celtic influence.

About the Syrakosioi:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

These men hail from one of the greatest poleis built by Hellenes, that of Syrakousai. The Syrakosioi Hoplitai are equipped with Italo-Attic helmets, lamellate cuirasses, armoured pteryges, aspis shield and greaves, while they carry a longer spear than most hoplitai use and a short sword for close melee. Centuries of warfare against armies different from that found in Hellas proper have changed the Syrakosioi Hoplitai's equipment and tactics somewhat compared to their �mainland cousins�. They are still meant to pin enemy troops down for others to hack to pieces, but unlike other Hellenic spearmen they can fare relatively well in close melee, using their shortswords to stab quicky beneath their aspis shields.

Historically, Syrakousai was among the greatest cities in the Hellenic world and who had for centuries waged wars against many enemies, mainly Carthage. Syrakousai had arguably the greatest army numerically among the Hellenic city-states and its Hoplitai formed the nucleus. The Syrakosioi Hoplitai were armed and fought as regular Hoplitai, although they adjusted themselves to the more free flowing and more organized forms of western infantry warfare (as in west of Greece). While in Greece proper it was largely hoplite against hoplite or against poor non-Hellenic infantry (the Thracians being the notable exception), in the western Mediterranean Syrakousai had to face Carthaginians in the west and Ligurian, Bruttian and Lucanian pirates and mercenaries from the north and also Illyrians, Gauls and other peoples who raided Sicily fairly regularly when they had a chance, which mostly meant whenever Syrakousai and Carthage were at war.
Syrakosioi Hoplitai fought in a less dense formation than normal for Hoplitai, but with longer spears, which they wielded with underhand thrusts. This meant that they could pin down enemy infantry with a sort of "hedgehog shieldwall" for the heavy Epilektoi soldiers to break through the middle, and cavalry to hit the flanks. In addition they also dropped the xiphos sword in favour of a shortsword made for stabbing, which they used to stab beneath their aspis shields, a technique Syrakousai adopted alongside the hoplitai of Taras anes who were more adept at close combat melee than the soldiers fielded in Greece.

They fought in a less dense formation, therefore they shouldn't get a lower density.

About the Hoplitai Troglodutikes (Red Sea Hoplites):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hoplitai Troglodutikes (Erythraian Sea Hoplites) are mostly Hellenic colonists who were drawn to the Erythraian Sea coast. After initial exploration Ptolemaioi founded colonies in there to hunt elephants and trade with the natives and as far as India. Local garisson forces took part in those hunts and many of the veterans remained on those colonies after retiring. As in each Hellenic polis, a local force of hoplites would be summoned at time of need. Having completed the rigorous "ephebike askesis" they would be ready to fight against their enemies and as such the rigorous demands for citizenship have been lowered to whomever is available. The enemies aren't hoplites or Phallangitai. They are the skirmishers and spearmen of the Troglodytai, the fierce archers of Meroe and Inner Aithiopia, and maybe even the lightly armored but deadly Sabaioi. Hellenic discipline and courage can win the day, but not by underestimation of those enemies. Against those, while retaining the same offensive equipment, (spear and aspis shield), bronze muscle cuirass and linothorax have been dumped in favor of lighter quilted armour. It is easier to wear in the tropics as ancient Aigyptioi had proven. No pteryges, as they add to weight and can raise body temperature. A trusty "machaira" compliments their equipment too. Their helmet is an evolved Boiotian, the ideal helmet for providing some sort of eye protection in the desert and african coast. Their aspis has no bronze coating, relying on elephant skin instead. Natives had been using such an arrangement, for some time. Now Hoplitai Troglodutikes must do the same.

Historically Ptolemaioi were very interested in the southern regions of their domain. Akte Troglodutike or the coast of the Troglodutes was perhaps the "wild, unexplored" frontier of the time. The rising elephant hunts as well as the trade with Sabaioi and Indoi, led to the founding of a series of Colonies, with Filotera, "founded by Satyr [a Ptolemaioi general] when he was sent hunting elephants in Troglodytiki" (Strabo,16,4-5) being the first. Soon enough, Arsinoe Troglodytiki, Berenike Troglodytiki, Ptolemais of the Elephantotheron (Elephant hunters) were founded. As frontiermen always do, those people cared more for what someone could do, not the purity of his Hellenic blood. Thus Hellenised Aigyptians and other nationals could be there and perfectly fit in. However rich and promising their situation was, their enemies were at the doors as to a Troglodyte which many of them were, the Colonists were godly rich. The local hoplites fight as ekdromoi mostly, since this is the only way they can effectively deal with the fluid battlefield environment in that area. Colonies in that region existed for many centuries and that was due, in no small part to the ability of their inhabitants to defend them.

The description says, that they fought as Ekdromoi ("skirmisher hunter"). They had to be fast to catch up with skirmishers, Hoplitephalanx was too slow to do so. IMO they should stay as they are, no lower density.

[SwissBarbar]

Right you are, but concerning the Massaliotai: They abandon the Phalany pretty always as melee starts ;-)

[Zett]

Right you are, but concerning the Massaliotai: They abandon the Phalany pretty always as melee starts ;-)

I want to take them out too, but Phalanx300 will kill me if I do so.

What about the Hypaspistai?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hail, Basileu! Before you stand your Hypaspistai: the elite of the elite and your personal guard. They are armed and armored in the finest equipment of the traditional hoplite: aspis, greaves, cuirass, helmet, spear, and sword. They are the best and richest of your men; far too worthy to risk in unwise actions. And yet they are without a doubt capable of multiplying the power of your army. Forming the right wing of the battle line or leading the assault on fortifications their heavy armor and weapons allow them to stand against even the hardiest of opponents and triumph with ease. They should be deployed where the fighting will be at its absolute thickest or nearby to fight with and to protect you.

Historically, the Hypaspistai (shield-bearers) first appear with Alexandros at the beginning of his reign as his elite troops and bodyguard. He used them extensively throughout his anabasis for special missions, assault of fortifications, and in support of light troops in rough terrain; however, details of the unit seem to disappear by the time Alexandros reaches India and remain as such until appearing in various sources for the three remaining Diadochoi kingdoms in different forms and perhaps briefly in Epeiros with Pyrrhos. Such examples of their deployment count them as possibly numbering a fifth of the 10,000 Arygraspides corps of the Seleukid kings or as the military police and closest guard of the Makedonian kings. Yet, despite their prowess, the Hypaspistai were either forced to evolve past the antiquated hoplite model as in the east or vanish with the fall of their kingdom as in the west.

They fought mostly as assaulttroops and mobile elite troops. They carried only the equipment of Hoplites, but were used for support missions, if they should hold a line, they were deployed as Arygraspides. So I think we should let them as they are, no lower density. They have very good stats too, so giving them a lower density would make them even stronger.

[Phalanx300]

I want to take them out too, but Phalanx300 will kill me if I do so.

I will indeed!

Though for the Massilians, they were Greek colonist with Celtic influenced armour. I don't see how that would mean are looser Phalanx. I would keep them at 0.25 personally.

What about the Hypaspistai?

They fought as elite Hoplites, thus putting them in 0.23 would be better.

Alexander(at the part you bolded) used them as assault troops, however at EB time that role was taken over by the Peltastai Makedonikoi.

If they fought as Hoplites we should show that, no matter if they were used different before EB time or sometimes used as other units(then you might as well take those other units).

What about the Basilikon Agema (Royal Guards)?

I'd say 0.23, they were used like Iphikratous Hoplites and were a elite unit.

About the Syrakosioi:

They should definately get a looser formation! They still fought in a Phalanx(it's in the bolded part, it says they fought like Hoplites and still in a Phalanx), just in a less dense one. 0.3 would fit best, or possibly even 0.35.

About the Hoplitai Troglodutikes (Red Sea Hoplites):

Ok I agree on this, if they were used to catch Skirmishers then they fought as individual units.

The Iphikratous should get 0.25(as they fought as ordinary Hoplites in a reformed Phalanx, and the Thorakitai Hoplitai should get 0.23 as well, they were a elite unit after all. Even able to break the Roman left in battle!

The early Triarii should get 0.23 as well, they were a elite Hoplite unit.

Poeni Citizen Militia should get 0.3 as they were levy Hoplites.

The Poenician-Lybian Hoplites(early and late) should get 0.25 as they fought as ordinary Hoplites.

The Sacred Band should definately get 0.23, they were a elite Poeni Phalanx. They even reminded the greek colonist of the Theban sacred band, that should say enough.

[V.T. Marvin]

Though for the Massilians, they were Greek colonist with Celtic influenced armour. I don't see how that would mean are looser Phalanx. I would keep them at 0.25 personally.

The trouble with Massilians (and Baktrian Agema and like units too) is that the engine does not change the spacing when using different weapons (i.e. spear vs. sword). Therefore the spacing of such particular "double-wielding" unit should represent a sensible compromise between dense order of hoplite phalanx and looser order needed to use the swords (and especially Celtic longswords of Massilians!!!) to their full potential.

My point is: yes, there is a reason to give Massilians closer order similar to other hoplites BUT the incredibility of fighting with longswords in such a closer order is overruling consideration and they should stay as they are, IMHO.

(Quite frankly, to me it seems that even current spacing of the Massilians is too close for longsword fighters, but I understand that this precisely because they are hoplite phalanx as well at the same time.)

[Celtic_Punk]

Right you are, but concerning the Massaliotai: They abandon the Phalany pretty always as melee starts ;-)

no they don't. not for me at least. All my troops with two different melee weapons work completely fine. I've never had a problem with my men changing from spears to swords.

[Watchman]

I've found it quite workable to give most infantry a flat 0.25 radius (axe- and longswordsmen mostly got 0.3 and the so-called "proto-phalanx" units - Iphikratean hoplites, the Alpine phalanxes etc. - 0.2). The "spreading out" effect is pretty minimal even with very densely packed troops like the hoplites, and close observation suggests it has interesting and desirable effects on how the individual soldiers behave.
Just for consistency I also duly reduced the x-radius stat of all horses by 0.1, and on the off chance it matters at all gave all mounted soldiers a radius of 0.3. Better safe than...

[Celtic_Punk]

I'm giving this a bump because i'm interested in density tweeking. this discussion shouldn't die.