Hoplitai and 0.2 density

[SwissBarbar]

Right you are, but concerning the Massaliotai: They abandon the Phalany pretty always as melee starts ;-)

[Zett]

Right you are, but concerning the Massaliotai: They abandon the Phalany pretty always as melee starts ;-)

I want to take them out too, but Phalanx300 will kill me if I do so.

What about the Hypaspistai?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hail, Basileu! Before you stand your Hypaspistai: the elite of the elite and your personal guard. They are armed and armored in the finest equipment of the traditional hoplite: aspis, greaves, cuirass, helmet, spear, and sword. They are the best and richest of your men; far too worthy to risk in unwise actions. And yet they are without a doubt capable of multiplying the power of your army. Forming the right wing of the battle line or leading the assault on fortifications their heavy armor and weapons allow them to stand against even the hardiest of opponents and triumph with ease. They should be deployed where the fighting will be at its absolute thickest or nearby to fight with and to protect you.

Historically, the Hypaspistai (shield-bearers) first appear with Alexandros at the beginning of his reign as his elite troops and bodyguard. He used them extensively throughout his anabasis for special missions, assault of fortifications, and in support of light troops in rough terrain; however, details of the unit seem to disappear by the time Alexandros reaches India and remain as such until appearing in various sources for the three remaining Diadochoi kingdoms in different forms and perhaps briefly in Epeiros with Pyrrhos. Such examples of their deployment count them as possibly numbering a fifth of the 10,000 Arygraspides corps of the Seleukid kings or as the military police and closest guard of the Makedonian kings. Yet, despite their prowess, the Hypaspistai were either forced to evolve past the antiquated hoplite model as in the east or vanish with the fall of their kingdom as in the west.

They fought mostly as assaulttroops and mobile elite troops. They carried only the equipment of Hoplites, but were used for support missions, if they should hold a line, they were deployed as Arygraspides. So I think we should let them as they are, no lower density. They have very good stats too, so giving them a lower density would make them even stronger.

[Phalanx300]

I want to take them out too, but Phalanx300 will kill me if I do so.

I will indeed!

Though for the Massilians, they were Greek colonist with Celtic influenced armour. I don't see how that would mean are looser Phalanx. I would keep them at 0.25 personally.

What about the Hypaspistai?

They fought as elite Hoplites, thus putting them in 0.23 would be better.

Alexander(at the part you bolded) used them as assault troops, however at EB time that role was taken over by the Peltastai Makedonikoi.

If they fought as Hoplites we should show that, no matter if they were used different before EB time or sometimes used as other units(then you might as well take those other units).

What about the Basilikon Agema (Royal Guards)?

I'd say 0.23, they were used like Iphikratous Hoplites and were a elite unit.

About the Syrakosioi:

They should definately get a looser formation! They still fought in a Phalanx(it's in the bolded part, it says they fought like Hoplites and still in a Phalanx), just in a less dense one. 0.3 would fit best, or possibly even 0.35.

About the Hoplitai Troglodutikes (Red Sea Hoplites):

Ok I agree on this, if they were used to catch Skirmishers then they fought as individual units.

The Iphikratous should get 0.25(as they fought as ordinary Hoplites in a reformed Phalanx, and the Thorakitai Hoplitai should get 0.23 as well, they were a elite unit after all. Even able to break the Roman left in battle!

The early Triarii should get 0.23 as well, they were a elite Hoplite unit.

Poeni Citizen Militia should get 0.3 as they were levy Hoplites.

The Poenician-Lybian Hoplites(early and late) should get 0.25 as they fought as ordinary Hoplites.

The Sacred Band should definately get 0.23, they were a elite Poeni Phalanx. They even reminded the greek colonist of the Theban sacred band, that should say enough.

[V.T. Marvin]

Though for the Massilians, they were Greek colonist with Celtic influenced armour. I don't see how that would mean are looser Phalanx. I would keep them at 0.25 personally.

The trouble with Massilians (and Baktrian Agema and like units too) is that the engine does not change the spacing when using different weapons (i.e. spear vs. sword). Therefore the spacing of such particular "double-wielding" unit should represent a sensible compromise between dense order of hoplite phalanx and looser order needed to use the swords (and especially Celtic longswords of Massilians!!!) to their full potential.

My point is: yes, there is a reason to give Massilians closer order similar to other hoplites BUT the incredibility of fighting with longswords in such a closer order is overruling consideration and they should stay as they are, IMHO.

(Quite frankly, to me it seems that even current spacing of the Massilians is too close for longsword fighters, but I understand that this precisely because they are hoplite phalanx as well at the same time.)

[Phalanx300]

In earlier times Hoplites also had long swords, thats no reason that you aren't able to form a Phalanx. After all in the Phalanx the best weapon is a short dagger like the Spartans eventually used. Some Hoplites also used axes, would they also need more space?

The sword is a secondary weapon, when one drew it out it didn't mean that he went out of formation and went berserk at the front rank.


Also another unit for the density is the elite Phoenician-Lybian unit of Carthage (those with the axes on their shields).

[V.T. Marvin]

The sword is a secondary weapon, when one drew it out it didn't mean that he went out of formation and went berserk at the front rank.

I am not suggesting any going berserk. I just maintain, that to use a long sword you need a room around yourself, otherwise you will be either confined to prodding (sensless when you have a spear as well and more effective for such fight), or you will injure your buddies around you, or be unable to perform attacks and parries at all and be killed quickly. In fact, you do yourself recognize that in confined space of hoplite phalanx there is not enough room for long blades:

After all in the Phalanx the best weapon is a short dagger like the Spartans eventually used.

Yet the Massilians do have longswords, therefore they cannot have close order phalanx at the same time in RTW engine.

In earlier times Hoplites also had long swords, thats no reason that you aren't able to form a Phalanx. (...) Some Hoplites also used axes, would they also need more space?

This is something different altogether. In real life the phalanx will be able to switch between close order and loose order - either purposefully or involuntarily due to melee. Therefore in real life it was only sensible to have a backup weapon (sword, axe, dagger, etc.) in case that things went wrong and the phalanx was broken.
However it is not happening in RTW engine (or if it does, it is buggy) and most EB hoplites are therefore represented as "spear-only" units. That is all right and they SHOULD have their spacing adjusted accordingly.
BUT for some units using those "secondary" weapons was considered so important that these were designed as "spear-and-sword" units. Now it is for these units (and most notably the Massilians) that I am arguing that making them "hoplite-phalanx-pure-and-dense" is inappropriate, because they would not be able to use their swords in a realistic manner in so dense formation.
It is a matter of balance really: making them dense would make them more effective hoplites but totally unrealistic swordsmen...

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Another option which should be considered in connection with the overall purpose of better balancing the hoplites is to increase a bit their unit mass. That should give them more push through the enemy formations, which is, I think, what they were actually doing and which might help to achieve the objective without too much undesirable effects.

[Zett]

Also another unit for the density is the elite Phoenician-Lybian unit of Carthage (those with the axes on their shields).

I heard, I thought, I rejected. Even if their unit description sacy that they are "great phalanx spearmen". They are "half Punic and half African" and a elite assault infantery.

We should only give Hellenic Hoplites a lower density to represent the Hoplite phalanx. All other units (barbarians and so on, that have no directly link to Hoplites) should wait.

And about the Basilikon Agema (Royal Guards), the description says nothing about fighting as Hoplites therefor they should not get a lower density (IMO). That the Basilikon Agema and the Torakitai Hoplitai share the same model and have a similar equitment doesn't say that they fought the same way.

Massaliotai...I saw that comming, really... ... ... ... , ok 0.3!

All other Hoplites with a secondary weapon (except the Iphikratous Hoplitai and the Thorakitai Hoplitai) shouldn't get a lower density. Bye bye Hypaspistai. No, really, we should think about that, if a Hoplit switches to sword he is no longer able to stay with his shield in the phalanx formation. He have to move his shield away to slash. So the minimum for all units with a secondary weapon (except Iphikratous and Thorakitai Hoplitai, because they are native Greeks) such as Hypaspistai, Massaliotai, Baktrion Agema and Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai, should be 0.3 (IMO).

[SwissBarbar]

Didn't greeks train carthaginian soldiers (I had somewhat like that in mind, isn't there even a charthaginian FM who has Spartiatai Hoplitai as Bodyguard?).

I think the carthaginian phalanxes can be given a more dense formation too

[Celtic_Punk]

Right you are, but concerning the Massaliotai: They abandon the Phalany pretty always as melee starts ;-)

no they don't. not for me at least. All my troops with two different melee weapons work completely fine. I've never had a problem with my men changing from spears to swords.

[Watchman]

I've found it quite workable to give most infantry a flat 0.25 radius (axe- and longswordsmen mostly got 0.3 and the so-called "proto-phalanx" units - Iphikratean hoplites, the Alpine phalanxes etc. - 0.2). The "spreading out" effect is pretty minimal even with very densely packed troops like the hoplites, and close observation suggests it has interesting and desirable effects on how the individual soldiers behave.
Just for consistency I also duly reduced the x-radius stat of all horses by 0.1, and on the off chance it matters at all gave all mounted soldiers a radius of 0.3. Better safe than...

[Celtic_Punk]

I'm giving this a bump because i'm interested in density tweeking. this discussion shouldn't die.