Hoplitai and 0.2 density

[Zett]

Perhaps Phalanx300 could make a list which units he want to use with lower density and give me also the exact density for each, so I could make a second EDU.

Or I could do something like this:

1. all Hoplites get 0.23 density (from Hoplitai Haploi to Epilektoi, including Hypaspistai, Indogreek Hoplitai with Hoplo, Triarii, Libians with Hoplo)

2. all 'semiphalanxes' get 0.25 density (Ihpikratous Hoplitai, Thorakitai Hoplitai, Basilikon Agema, Hoplitai Indohellenikoi, Sacred Band, Germanic Pikemen, Mori Gaesum, Alpine Phalanx)

3. all other units that should get a lower density get 0.3 (pherhaps Noricene Gaecori or polybian Triarii)

[Phalanx300]

Sure, and I'm personally more a fan of 0.2 as I see Hoplite warfare as very dense as seen in these two videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHZt...e=channel_page

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2XL...e=channel_page

-----------------------------

Greek Phoenician Roman Units:

Spartiatai Hoplitai, 0.2
Epileptikoi Hoplitai, 0.2
Somatophylakes Strategou, 0.2
Triarii (Camillan ones), 0.2
Hypaspistai, 0.2
Thorakitai Hoplitai, 0.2
Basilikon Agema, 0.2
Baktrion Agema, 0.2
Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai, 0.2
Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim, 0.2
Dorkim Kdoshim, 0.2

Hoplitai, 0.23
Hoplitai Hellenikon, 0.23
Iphikratous Hoplitai, 0.23
Massaliotai Hoplitai 0.23
Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Mookdamim, 0.23
Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Meshoorianim 0.23
Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai, 0.23
Hoplitai Indohellenikoi 0.23

Hoplitai Haploi, 0.25
Mishteret Izrahim Feenikim, 0.25

Syrakosioi Hoplitai 0.3

[Zett]

Sure, and I'm personally more a fan of 0.2 as I see Hoplite warfare as very dense as seen in these two videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHZt...e=channel_page

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2XL...e=channel_page

-----------------------------

Greek Phoenician Roman Units:

Spartiatai Hoplitai, 0.2
Epileptikoi Hoplitai, 0.2
Somatophylakes Strategou, 0.2
Triarii (Camillan ones), 0.2
Hypaspistai, 0.2
Thorakitai Hoplitai, 0.2
Basilikon Agema, 0.2
Baktrion Agema, 0.2
Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai, 0.2
Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim, 0.2
Dorkim Kdoshim, 0.2

Hoplitai, 0.23
Hoplitai Hellenikon, 0.23
Iphikratous Hoplitai, 0.23
Massaliotai Hoplitai 0.23
Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Mookdamim, 0.23
Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Meshoorianim 0.23
Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai, 0.23
Hoplitai Indohellenikoi 0.23

Hoplitai Haploi, 0.25
Mishteret Izrahim Feenikim, 0.25

Syrakosioi Hoplitai 0.3

I guess Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai 0.2? I have done the Multiplayer EDU so far, but I can not find the Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim (Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry), does someone know which number they have in the EDU files?

Oh, I forgot one unit in the Density Mod 0.1 files. I gave the mecenary Mishteret Izrahim Feenikim (for the Eleutheroi) a lower density, but forgot the 'normal' Mishteret Izrahim Feenikim (for Carthage).

[Woreczko]

Guys, are you sure, that "radius" doesn`t affect missile resistance? I had some doubts, after using javelins on a small radius unit. They seemed too resistant for their stats. Perhaps smaller radius made individual men harder to hit... But I`m not sure.

[SwissBarbar]

I think IF it had any effect, then a negative one. Loose formation is better against missiles, so dense formation should be worse...

[Woreczko]

Nope. The attribute you are changing is "radius" (just look in the EDU documentation). A radius, that a single soldier occupies. The smaller the radius, the thinner the target...may be. It works in melee, but I`m not sure if it works for missiles too. Just asking :)

[Βελισάριος]

I think IF it had any effect, then a negative one. Loose formation is better against missiles, so dense formation should be worse...

I haven't tested the EDUs yet, but in my sincere opinion... if it makes them invulnerable to missiles... bloomin' finally!

I don't know about you, but when a unit of arse-wipe Hastati decimates a unit of Hoplitai with javelins, then I know something's not right... somebody vomited in the petunias there.

On the other hand, if the missile attack is from behind that'd be near devastating... which it should be, after all.

[Phalanx300]

I guess Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai 0.2? I have done the Multiplayer EDU so far, but I can not find the Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim (Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry), does someone know which number they have in the EDU files?

Oh, I forgot one unit in the Density Mod 0.1 files. I gave the mecenary Mishteret Izrahim Feenikim (for the Eleutheroi) a lower density, but forgot the 'normal' Mishteret Izrahim Feenikim (for Carthage).

Yes 0.2 as they were noble elite soldiers, my bad.

On the Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim, I wouldn't know. Though all units are directed into spots like Germanians Hellenes etc. Also some units ingame don't match the name in the EDU or the site which can get annoying. Like those Belgian spearmen.

Guys, are you sure, that "radius" doesn`t affect missile resistance? I had some doubts, after using javelins on a small radius unit. They seemed too resistant for their stats. Perhaps smaller radius made individual men harder to hit... But I`m not sure.

I wouldn't know about missle resistance, a real Hoplite Phalanx would basicly be close to invurnable to arrows and javelins. But I don't know how it works out with shorter radius.

Shorter radius decreases the room that the units takes in, overlapping units would kindoff proove that they aren't getting thinner or anything.

So to keep it short: I wouldn't know.

I think IF it had any effect, then a negative one. Loose formation is better against missiles, so dense formation should be worse...

That depends, old sources say that the pilum was close to useless against Phalangites. And Hoplites were close to invurnable to missles as well (then again which part of the body is not good protected?).

[Dutchhoplite]

I'm tempted to use these changes, looks interesting.

[mcantu]

after much testing in RTR-XXX i have come to the conclusion that 0.2 for hoplites makes them too powerful. what i'm doing now is setting all hoplites at 0.3 and all phalangites at 0.2

[Woreczko]

I wouldn't know about missle resistance, a real Hoplite Phalanx would basicly be close to invurnable to arrows and javelins.

You have a point here. AFAIK "phalanx" ability coubles the effectiveness of the shields against missiles. It`s quite logical, for classical hoplites to also get similar bonus... by means of smaller radius for example.

Shorter radius decreases the room that the units takes in, overlapping units would kindoff proove that they aren't getting thinner or anything.

Units overlap, because of graphics but I believe that the engine cares more about abstract numbers (i.e. radius), than the unit`s skeleton and skin. One of the reasons, why hoplites in vanilla EB don`t perform that well, while in guard mode, may be - that large radius and close spacing causes soldiers to get in the way of each other. I suppose, that may be the reason, why only some of the guys in the first rank seem to really engage in combat, while others are watching...

[Zett]

So nobody knows which number the Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim (Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry) have? Or which name they use in the EDU? I want to upload Phalanx300 edu files, they are the last unit that is missing.

;536
type carthaginian infantry picked libyphoenician
dictionary carthaginian_infantry_picked_libyphoenician ; Picked Libyphoenician
category infantry
class heavy

I think I found them

[SwissBarbar]

try and know

[Zett]

Greek Phoenician Roman Units:

Spartiatai Hoplitai, 0.2
Epileptikoi Hoplitai, 0.2
Somatophylakes Strategou, 0.2
Triarii (Camillan ones), 0.2
Hypaspistai, 0.2
Thorakitai Hoplitai, 0.2
Basilikon Agema, 0.2
Baktrion Agema, 0.2
Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai, 0.2
Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim, 0.2
Dorkim Kdoshim, 0.2

Hoplitai, 0.23
Hoplitai Hellenikon, 0.23
Iphikratous Hoplitai, 0.23
Massaliotai Hoplitai 0.23
Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Mookdamim, 0.23
Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Meshoorianim 0.23
Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai, 0.23
Hoplitai Indohellenikoi 0.23

Hoplitai Haploi, 0.25
Mishteret Izrahim Feenikim, 0.25

Syrakosioi Hoplitai 0.3

Phalanx300 Density Mod:Phalanx300.rar

----------------------------------------------------------------

What about these guys?

Barbarian units:

Mori Gaesum - Speutagardaz (Germanic Pikemen) - Appea Gaedotos (Alpine Phalanx)

0.3 for the Pikemen and the Alpine Phalanx and 0.25 for the Mori Gaesum?

Dacian units:

Getikoi Stratiotai (Dacian Light Phalanx) - Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai (Dacian Heavy Phalanx)

Both 0.25?

[Phalanx300]

Thanks Zett, and for the "Barbarian" units:

------

Germanic Units:

Speutagardaz, 0.2
Druhtiz Herusku, 0.2

Dugunthiz, 0.23
Herunautoz, 0.23
Thegnoz Drugule, 0.23
Herthaganautoz, 0.23
Druhtiz Habukisku, 0.23
Dugunthiz Hattisku, 0.23
Gaizoz Alje, 0.23
Druhtiz Skandzisku, 0.23

Gaizoz Frije, 0.3

-----

Celtic Units:

Mori Gaesum, 0.2
Arjos, 0.2

Appea Gaedotos, 0.23
Noricene Gaecori, 0.23
Milnaht, 0.23


-----

Getai Units:

Ischyroi Orditon, 0.2

Getikoi Stratiotai, 0.23
Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai, 0.23


I think thats about it.

[Dutchhoplite]

Nice work guys :)

I'm wondering what's best to do download this mod or change by hand. Only i have to know what to change

[Zett]

Thanks Zett, and for the "Barbarian" units:

------

Germanic Units:

Speutagardaz, 0.2
Druhtiz Herusku, 0.2

Dugunthiz, 0.23
Herunautoz, 0.23
Thegnoz Drugule, 0.23
Herthaganautoz, 0.23
Druhtiz Habukisku, 0.23
Dugunthiz Hattisku, 0.23
Gaizoz Alje, 0.23
Druhtiz Skandzisku, 0.23

Gaizoz Frije, 0.3

-----

Celtic Units:

Mori Gaesum, 0.2
Arjos, 0.2

Appea Gaedotos, 0.23
Noricene Gaecori, 0.23
Milnaht, 0.23


-----

Getai Units:

Ischyroi Orditon, 0.2

Getikoi Stratiotai, 0.23
Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai, 0.23


I think thats about it.

Gaizoz Frije, unit description says nothing about shieldwall, they are Levy Spearmen "lacking in the organized training of the warbands that serve in a more regular capacity"
Druhtiz Herusku (Cherusci Swordsmen) nothing about shield wall, and they fought with swords.
Dugunthiz (Germanic Spearmen) "work in close or open formation" and they have javelines
Herthaganautoz (Germanic Bodyguard Infantry) are bodyguards and not line Infantery, also the unit description says nothing about shieldwall
Thegnoz Drugule (Germanic Heavy Infantry) swordmen, I dont think they were able to fight in close formation and use their swords like the Romanii, they would fight individually.
Herunautoz (Germanic Swordsmen) swordmen and javeline, the unitdescription says "dense formations" but if they throw a javeline, they need space
Dugunthiz Hattisku (Chatti Spearmen) they have javelines too
Gaizoz Alje (Celto-Germanic Spearmen) description says nothing about shieldwall or dense formation
Milnaht "Aside from their charge, they form an impressive, tight 'shieldwall' type of formation, to resist opposing charges." that can be better represented with guardmode, they would not charge in a dense formation

If you would give all those units lower density, you would need to give it all Romans too. I think only those units that fought in a very dense formation nearly all the time of a battle (no sword or javeline), for example all units that lost their phalanxability in 1.0 (not sure could be 1.1 too) should get a lower density.

-----------------------------------------------------
Density Mod 0.2 link

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spartiatai Hoplitai, 0.2
Epileptikoi Hoplitai, 0.2
Somatophylakes Strategou, 0.2
Triarii (Camillan ones), 0.2
Hypaspistai, 0.2
Thorakitai Hoplitai, 0.2
Basilikon Agema, 0.2
Baktrion Agema, 0.2
Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai, 0.2
Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim, 0.2
Dorkim Kdoshim, 0.2
Mori Gaesum, 0.2
Speutagardaz, 0.2
Ischyroi Orditon, 0.2

Hoplitai, 0.23
Hoplitai Hellenikon, 0.23
Iphikratous Hoplitai, 0.23
Massaliotai Hoplitai 0.23
Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Mookdamim, 0.23
Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Meshoorianim 0.23
Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai, 0.23
Hoplitai Indohellenikoi 0.23
Appea Gaedotos, 0.23
Getikoi Stratiotai, 0.23
Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai, 0.23

Hoplitai Haploi, 0.25
Mishteret Izrahim Feenikim, 0.25

Syrakosioi Hoplitai 0.3

Installation:

Copy the 'sp game edu backup' and the 'mp edu backup' folder in your
EB folder* and overwrite the existing edu files

-----------------------------------------------------

Nice work guys :)

I'm wondering what's best to do download this mod or change by hand. Only i have to know what to change

Change it yourself or give me your unitlist and the density for each unit (but please not too many). You can do it easily, just open the EDU, search for the unit you want to give a lower density and add the density (for example: , 0.23) to the 'soldier' line.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[IMG]

[Phalanx300]

Gaizoz Frije, unit description says nothing about shieldwall, they are Levy Spearmen "lacking in the organized training of the warbands that serve in a more regular capacity"
Druhtiz Herusku (Cherusci Swordsmen) nothing about shield wall, and they fought with swords.
Dugunthiz (Germanic Spearmen) "work in close or open formation" and they have javelines
Herthaganautoz (Germanic Bodyguard Infantry) are bodyguards and not line Infantery, also the unit description says nothing about shieldwall
Thegnoz Drugule (Germanic Heavy Infantry) swordmen, I dont think they were able to fight in close formation and use their swords like the Romanii, they would fight individually.
Herunautoz (Germanic Swordsmen) swordmen and javeline, the unitdescription says "dense formations" but if they throw a javeline, they need space
Dugunthiz Hattisku (Chatti Spearmen) they have javelines too
Gaizoz Alje (Celto-Germanic Spearmen) description says nothing about shieldwall or dense formation
Milnaht "Aside from their charge, they form an impressive, tight 'shieldwall' type of formation, to resist opposing charges." that can be better represented with guardmode, they would not charge in a dense formation

The Germanics were known to fight in very dense formations. The levy units were from childhood introduced to war, and being Germanics they would have a closer formation then most other levies.

On the spear and swordsmen, they were known to form a shieldwall/very dense formation, at the very least a very dense formation. They have javelins yes, but that does not change that they fought in the shieldwall as well. The Germanics were all around troops.

The bodyguard units would essentialy be the heavy form of the spear and swordsmen.

On Milnaht, then we might as well give Hoplites just guard mode at well. I don't really like this preference for Hellenic units.

After all, this is EB, all factions should get equal treatment.

If you would give all those units lower density, you would need to give it all Romans too. I think only those units that fought in a very dense formation nearly all the time of a battle (no sword or javeline), for example all units that lost their phalanxability in 1.0 (not sure could be 1.1 too) should get a lower density.

Not really as all those units I posted fought in a Phalanx/Shieldwall/Dense formation.

[Zett]

I don't think that all Germanic units fought in dense formation, so if the unit description says nothing about it we should not give them a lower density. In doubt leave it out. And about the bodyguards, to give them lower density only because thei are elites makes no sense. If we have no sources about them fighting in dense formation we should leave them at they are. They also have small shields which would be less effective if used in shieldwall then other shields. There for we should represent them as assualt infantery.
And about swordfighting. I think to hold a dense phalanx like formation while fighting with a sword is only possible if you stab. But if you want to slash with full power you need more space, same goes for javelines. Because we can not change the density in battle to represent the switching between javelin and close combat spear we should leave them at thei are, thats more realistic then let them throw their javelines in dense formation.

Not really as all those units I posted fought in a Phalanx/Shieldwall/Dense formation.

Even if they fought in dense formation, that doesn't mean that they always fought in that way. And if they carry javelines, they would not throw them while in close formation. (fighting in close combat with spear in loose formation possible, throwing a javeline in close formation...dangerous).