Hoplitai and 0.2 density

[Phalanx300]

Well Germanics did usually fought in a more dense formation. About swordsmen, it says that they fought in the shieldwall. And swordsmen would perfectly be able to do so, just look at the Viking and Saxon shieldwalls etc.

And about small shields, well as you've seen from all Germanic units, there wasn't exactly a standard shield design, the EB team wanted some variety, at least thats what I think.

Even if they fought in dense formation, that doesn't mean that they always fought in that way. And if they carry javelines, they would not throw them while in close formation. (fighting in close combat with spear in loose formation possible, throwing a javeline in close formation...dangerous).

Then we could say that about all units who did fought in close formation.

And trowing a javelin, well it wouldn't be exactly impossible you wouldn't be able to trow it far or effective. Though they probably trew it when not in shieldwall and afterwards forming one.

Also, the Romans also sometimes used dense formation and also wore Javelins, it isn't exactly impossible.

[Zett]

And about small shields, well as you've seen from all Germanic units, there wasn't exactly a standard shield design, the EB team wanted some variety, at least thats what I think.

We shoudn't give all units a lower density if we think it fits to them, if the unitdescription say nothing about it (and in that case it says nothing) we shouldn't give them a lower density. And the shields have to be of a proper size to form a shield wall, so the bodyguard unit shouldnt get lower density.

And trowing a javelin, well it wouldn't be exactly impossible you wouldn't be able to trow it far or effective. Though they probably trew it when not in shieldwall and afterwards forming one.

Thats the point, we are not able to let them change their density during battle, so it would be unrealistic if they throw javelines in dense formation (at least as dense as they would be if we give them 0.2 or 0.23). Thats why I say, fighting in loose formation would be possible and not unrealistic for them, throwing javelines would.

Then we could say that about all units who did fought in close formation.

Yes we could, but Hoplites don't carry javelines (normaly) and there for they would fought more often in dense formation then a germanic unit with javelines. If we could not represent the change during battle we should vote for the most realistical way to represent them. Throwing javelines in dense formation would be more unrealistic then fighting in loose formation (I'm starting to repeating me).

And swordsmen would perfectly be able to do so, just look at the Viking and Saxon shieldwalls etc.

http://www.regia.org/shields.htm Here they speak mostly from spears that were used in the shield wall (of course, different time frame then EB), same here http://homepage.ntlworld.com/echoblue/Theshieldwall.htm
wiki say that there ARE problems with swords and only shortswords could be effectively used in shieldwall.

And to all others (yes im looking at the 'hits' for thit thread and they are increasing) tell us what you think about that idea and how we should represent the Germanic units.

[Dutchhoplite]

Hmm it's well beyond the EB period but at Strasbourg (357 AD) the Roman infantry *might* have carried the spatha and still fight in a shieldwall. So fighting in close formation and still use a longer sword is not impossible.

[Zett]

But they a Romani, they don't use shield wall. They are very disciplined and have a good training. And i think their formation is not so close like a shield wall.

About the barbarian units that Phalanx300 posted:

I could give all units with javelines that should also fought in a denser formation a 0.3 density:

Dugunthiz (Germanic Spearmen) - 0.3
Herunautoz (Germanic Swordsmen) - 0,3
Dugunthiz Hattisku (Chatti Spearmen) - 0.3

units that only fought with swords a 0.3 or 0.25 density:

Thegnoz Drugule (Germanic Heavy Infantry) - 0.25
Druhtiz Herusku (Cherusci Swordsmen) - 0.3

and for the others:

Gaizoz Frije (Germanic Levy Spearmen) - 0.3
Gaizoz Alje (Celto-Germanic Spearmen) - 0.4 (standart, cause they are levys and throw javelines AFAIK)
Druhtiz Skandzisku (Scandinavian Spearmen) - 0.23 or 0.25
Druhtiz Habukisku (Chauci Spearmen) - 0.23 or 0.25
Herthaganautoz (Germanic Bodyguard Infantry) 0.4 (even if they are elites, they carry smaler shields, fight with sword (secondary) and the unit descritpion says nothing about dense formation or shield wall

Noricene Gaecori - 0.3 (javelines)
Milnaht - 0.25 or 0.3 (swords)
Arjos - 0.2 or 0.23 (im not sure, I would prefer 0.23)

[SwissBarbar]

The Camillan Triarii do. You can read in their description:

Thus the Triarii still continue to fight like the classical hoplite of the 5th and 4th century BC Etruscan Roman armies.

[Zett]

The Camillan Triarii do. You can read in their description:

Look at the first post, they where some of the first non hellenic units that get a lower density, in the Density Mod 0.2 they have 0.23 0.2.

By the way, if nobody move this thread to the Unoffical Modding Projects, I will open there a new thread and leave this as a dicscussian thread.

[SwissBarbar]

ah yeah, there they are ^^

[Phalanx300]

Then I gues we both will just have different EDU's. I will pick what in my eyes will be more Historical.

[Zett]

Then I gues we both will just have different EDU's. I will pick what in my eyes will be more Historical.

If you give me the unit numbers (in the EDU) and the density (I guess the density you posted earlier) I could change the EDU for you if you want.

[Phalanx300]

No thanks that wont be necasarry.

[Dutchhoplite]

Maybe it's possible to make a final list?? I lost track somewhat

[Zett]

First post was updated a while ago, with mod link and unitlist

Units with lower density in the Density Mod 0.2 link

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hoplitai Haploi (Greek Levy Hoplites) - 0.25



Hoplitai (Greek Classical Hoplites) - 0.23



Syrakosioi Hoplitai (Syracusan Hoplites) - 0.3



Massaliotai Hoplitai (Massilian Medium Hoplites) - 0.23



Iphikratous Hoplitai (Greek Hoplite Phalanx) - 0.23



Thorakitai Hoplitai (Greek Heavy Hoplite Phalanx) - 0.2



Epilektoi Hoplitai - 0.2



Spartiatai Hoplitai (Spartan Hoplites) - 0.2



Somatophylakes Strategou (Greek General) - 0.2




Triarii (Early) - 0.2





Hypaspistai - 0.2





Basilikon Agema (Royal Guards) - 0.2





Poeni Citizen Militia - Mishteret Izrahim Feenikim - 0.25



Liby-Phoenician Infantry (early) - Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Mookdamim - 0.23



Liby-Phoenician Heavy Infantry (late) - Dorki Leebi-Feenikim Meshoorianim 0.23



Dorkim Kdoshim (Sacred Band Phalanx) - 0.2



Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim (Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry) - 0.2





Baktrion Agema (Baktrian Royal Guard) - 0.2



Hoplitai Indohellenikoi (Indo-Hellenic Medium Infantry) - 0.23



Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai (Indo-Greek Noble Hoplites) - 0.2





Hoplitai Hellenikon (Saka Heavy Hoplites) - 0.23





Ischyroi Orditon (Elite Dacian Infantry) - 0.2



Getikoi Stratiotai (Dacian Light Phalanx) - 0.23



Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai (Dacian Heavy Phalanx) - 0.23





Speutagardaz (Germanic Pikemen) - 0.2





Mori Gaesum (Helvetii Phalanx) - 0.2



Appea Gaedotos (Alpine Phalanx) - 0.23

[SwissBarbar]

Could you please post some screenshots of some of the units, where they stand in formation and are not moving? That would be nice

[Zett]

Could you please post some screenshots of some of the units, where they stand in formation and are not moving? That would be nice

Battle with lower density (look first post for density values)

Standing units

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Steady units

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Fighting units

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Battle with standard density

Standing units

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Steady units

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Fighting units

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You will notice, that the difference while standing and being steady is quiet small, but the difference while fighting is big. Without lower density the unit "explode" when ordered to attack (except when guardmode is on, first picture at "Fighting units" with standard density). You will also notice, that the Syrakosioi Hoplitai look (with and without lower density) while standing the same, that means that there must be another value (is this the right english word?) in the files to define the dense of a formation. I noticed this phenomenon also by the Ekdromoi, you can give them a lower density in the EDU files, but they still have their lose formation (pherhaps some experienced modder could tell me which other values define the foramtion density of a unit).

And about the balance...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I used in both battles the same tactic (waiting, let them come, guardmode on, after 30 sec. after the fight started turn guardmode off, no outflanking). In the battle with standard density the enemy general died early, but the loses I suffered were still bigger then in the battle with lower density. If the enemy general had not died, I would have lost the battle, while there was no problem in the battle with lower density.

[the man with no name]

Defenitly include this in eb 1.3 plz.

[Phalanx300]

I agree. All Shieldwall/Phalanx units without Phalanx/Dense fighting units should definately have a tighter density.

[Woreczko]

You will notice, that the difference while standing and being steady is quiet small, but the difference while fighting is big. Without lower density the unit "explode" when ordered to attack (except when guardmode is on, first picture at "Fighting units" with standard density). You will also notice, that the Syrakosioi Hoplitai look (with and without lower density) while standing the same, that means that there must be another value (is this the right english word?) in the files to define the dense of a formation. I noticed this phenomenon also by the Ekdromoi, you can give them a lower density in the EDU files, but they still have their lose formation (pherhaps some experienced modder could tell me which other values define the foramtion density of a unit).

The spacing of soldiers in a unit, while in formation, is defined by (surprise surprise!) "spacing" attributes. These are four values - rank spacing, column spacing for both close and loose formation :) . Now, units who fight at "engage at will" are not considered "in formation", thus they don`t care about the spacing attribute. They do care about radius, which is by default 0.4 . That`s why in vanilla EB hopites seem to "explode" if ordered to fight, while not in guard mode.

[kekailoa]

Not really, a great line of Hoplites wouldn't be able to switch between loose and close 123. The units using secondary weapons were included for the fact that they were armed special. They would be able to use longswords in a shield wall. Just look at the vikings if you don't believe me.

Actually, the vikings switched between long blades for loose combat and the shield wall seaxe for close combat. This was a trait shared with the Saxons, who they were extremely similar to in tactics on battle. They probably copied the best of each other.

Am I right?

[Phalanx300]

Then I gues all those Reenactors have it wrong.

[keravnos]

First post was updated a while ago, with mod link and unitlist

It seems you forgot the Saka Agema Hellenikon.

Anyways, I do like what you are creating, but I have to be against any effort to insert a "machine gun pilae" on any condition. Pilae were deffinitely dangerous, but not different or better than any of the javs carried back then (only the heavier ones, which too were carried by their enemies, see soliferrum). This means that the stats on missiles are fine as they are.

[Phalanx300]

You're totally right there Keravnos, Pilum were dangerous though that is usually overestimated.

And yeah, totally forgot the Saka Agema Hellenikon Hoplites, how foolish of me.

[Zett]

It seems you forgot the Saka Agema Hellenikon.

They are in since 0.1, its right that they have a extra EDU entry, but I counted them as Baktrion Agema in the unit list. I will edit the first post. done

Ceterum Censeo Romam esse delendam

[lonmzjia]

Question (and sorry if it has been asked): If i change the hoplite densities, will I have to start a new game to have it work / not screw up my current campaigns?

[Woreczko]

No, you don`t have to start a new campaign to make it work :)

[lonmzjia]

Another question, is this compatible with the EB 1.2 mini mod pack?

[Zett]

Another question, is this compatible with the EB 1.2 mini mod pack?

If the mini mod pack changes the EDU file (what I guess) it's not compatible. I will upload a vesion for the mini mod pack if I have some time.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

Edit: Density Mod 0.2 for EB 1.2 Mini Mod Pack (rtw.exe)

EDUs are ready but filefront says

This function is currently down for maintenance and will be back shortly.

Sorry, I will go to bed (10.55pm in my timezone). Tomorrow is my 3rd last schoolday in my life (if I pass the exams), I want to enjoy my last schooldays.

Instruction: First install the EB 1.2 Mini Mod Pack, then copy the 'sp game edu backup' and the 'mp edu backup' folder in your <RTW directory>/EB folder and overwrite the existing edu files.

[Aper]

But they a Romani, they don't use shield wall.

...
Please read something about the battle of Strasbourg, and about the late roman army, NOW.


BTW, I fail to understand why should be impossible to use a spatha in shield-wall: sure, you cannot perform wide lateral cuts, and so? You still have plenty of handy techniques in your pocket.

(I'm not attacking you Zett, but I'm getting really annoyed by the videogamish approach to military history of many members, who should play less and study more before posting)

EDIT: maybe you were referring strictly to EB timeframe? In that case my apologies, because probably you were right

[Zett]

In the EB timeframe Romans and nearly all units with big shields could use some kind of shieldwall. I do not say that the Romans never used it (testudo was some kind of shieldwall too). But is was not their main fighting style. Hoplites for example where more often deployed in a phalanx/shieldwall formation then Roman soldiers (except the early Triarii, which fought similar to Greek Hoplites). I originally wanted to represent the Hoplitephalanx with this mod. I'm aware of other soldiers, who fought in the EB timeframe in a dense formation (how Phalanx300 already said: many Sweboz warriors).

Yes, you can use swords in shieldwalls, but a weapon with a longer range (spears,pikes) can be better used while holding the shieldwall formation. If you swing a sword (or axe) then you have to move your shield away and step a little out of the shieldwall to use its full power (in this moment you are not longer fighting in a shieldwall, you fight individually and expose the man next to you). If you only stab with the sword it would be possible.

I think it would make sense to speak only about EB timeframe, if this mod is only used to represent the fighting styles in this timeframe.

But I think we should not argue about which unit should get it and which not (at least not yet), I posted the mod links so you could test how it affects the balance. That's the mainproblem IMO. A lower density makes Hoplites and other units 'stronger'. And the question is, how to rebalance the game. Should all units with lower density get a lower attack? Or should they get a lower defence? Or higher costs and upkeep? And how low or high should the new stats be?

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Aper]

If you swing a sword (or axe) then you have to move your shield away and step a little out of the shieldwall to use its full power.

Not always "full power" is necessary... or desirable! But this discussion will surely get OT fast...

However, I feel like you guys are overestimating the matter a bit... I mean, if you give to hoplites 0.2 radius and -4 to attack (to counter the "light_spear" bug), why things shouldn't be balanced enough?

I hope to be wrong, but I fear all this microtesting will be a waste of time in the end...

About Romans and units depicted fighting in shield-wall, they can be included or not depending on how people want to portrait their style of fighting... Teorically they should be included, as all other soldiers who were trained to fight like a whole and not as individuals, but maybe THIS will turn out to be unbalancing, so for now I think you should stick to hoplites only.

pherhaps some experienced modder could tell me which other values define the foramtion density of a unit.

I hope you will find this useful

The Complete EDU Guide

[Zett]

However, I feel like you guys are overestimating the matter a bit... I mean, if you give to hoplites 0.2 radius and -4 to attack (to counter the "light_spear" bug), why things shouldn't be balanced enough?

I know the EDU guide and its comment about density:

[radius](may not be visible) : Hidden attribute radius of the unit. The default value is 0.4. It's the area surrounding each single soldier that he "occupies" as the engine perceives it (not visually that is). Small radius makes a unit fight better, in that it allows soldiers to fight more closely to each other, resulting in more men of the small-radius unit fighting against fewer of the enemy one's.

That's why I think, that -4 attack won't do it. The problem about density is, that nobody can say exactly what will happen if we give a unit a lower density. The standard value is 0.4, several elite Hoplites in the files I posted have a value of 0.2, which would mean that one soldier in a unit with 0.4 density would have to face two soldiers of a unit with 0.2 density. I'm not sure if you could say so, but for me this sounds like you could say, that in general the one soldier have to face another soldier with doubled attack and doubled lethality values.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam