Hoplitai and 0.2 density

**Zett** · 03-02-2009, 16:43

I want to know your opinion about that topic. Would you like to see Hoplites with low density to present their way of fighting better? And which units should get it and which not?

The density defines the space that a single soldier of a units needs. A lower density means, that the soldiers of a unit stand closer to each other (screenshoots). The density also influences the performance of a unit, a lower density makes the unit slightly (my impression) better in battle.

Units with lower density in the Density Mod 0.2 link (savegame compatible)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Screenshots

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

for more screenshots go to post #74

(please move this to the Unoffical Modding Projects)

**Βελισάριος** · 03-02-2009, 16:45

I'll be following this closely, as I am interested in implementing some changes in the Legion vs. Phalanx tournament regarding this issue.

**SwissBarbar** · 03-02-2009, 17:06

Very interesting! Here's my list.

yes

Hypaspistai
Baktrion Agema
Indohellenikoi Eugeneis Hoplitai
Hoplitai Haploi
Hoplitai
Kardaka Arteshtar (Persian Hoplites)
Liby-Phoenician Infantry (early and late)
Poeni Citizen Militia (NOT SURE)
Epilektoi Hoplitai
Spartiatai Hoplitai
Somatophylakes Strategou (KH)
Triarii - Only Camillan
Hoplitai Troglodutikes
Hoplitai Hellenikon
Agema Hellenikon
Massaliotai Hoplitai
Syrakosioi Hoplitai

No

Thorakitai
Barbarian kinds of Phalanxes (Helveti, Dacian..etc.)
Ekdromoi Hoplitai - they are meant to hunt down Peltastai, they don't need too tight formation, so they can gain speed
Gestikapoinann - Large shields, but I don't see them in a Phalanx
Peltastai Makedonikoi - Peltastai after all.

- No units with javelins in general, they would need space to throw -

Looking forward to seeing screenshots =)

**Moros** · 03-02-2009, 17:12

Personally I'm for a higher density, though testing should be done if you want to do it for a MP tournament. Some other stat might need to be changed too.

Also Syrakousian hoplites fight in a looser order than thier other counterparts adn thus shouldn't get it. Not sure about the Massilian hoplites to I imagine them fighting in a looser order as well. Barbarian phalanxes or shieldwall should get it as well as they also used tight fighting orders. Of course testing could be used and see for gradations in density.

My two cents,
-moros

**Zett** · 03-02-2009, 17:13

Originally Posted by SwissBarbar

Very interesting! Here's my list.

No

Thorakitai
Barbarian kinds of Phalanxes (Helveti, Dacian..etc.)
Ekdromoi Hoplitai - they are meant to hunt down Peltastai, they don't need too tight formation, so they can gain speed
Gestikapoinann - Large shields, but I don't see them in a Phalanx
Peltastai Makedonikoi - Peltastai after all.

- No units with javelins in general, they would need space to throw -

I agree with that, but what about Dorkim Kdoshim - (Sacred Band Phalanx)? I'm not sure about them...

Originally Posted by Moros

Barbarian phalanxes or shieldwall should get it as well as they also used tight fighting orders.

Ok, lets leave all Barbarian phalanxes and the sacred band out (for the moment). We should first care about all Hoplitai units + Thorakitai Hoplita, Iphikratous Hoplitai, Basilikon Agema, Hoplitai Indohellenikoi.

**antisocialmunky** · 03-02-2009, 17:18

Of course there would need to be gradations. I do however think that someone needs to fraps one of these and show us or we could create a thread in the mods forum and make a mod based on this idea.

Don't forget those the KH Iph-type Phalanxes.

**antisocialmunky** · 03-02-2009, 17:20

What happened to the delete option?

**Phalanx300** · 03-02-2009, 17:36

Yes! I would totally support it. Give it to all units on the list, except:

The Ekdromoi, they were used to chase skirmishers and would thus not fight in the Phalanx.

The Thorakitai, they didn't fought in the Phalanx as far as I'm aware.

Units to further include:

The Hoplitai Hellenikoi, a Hoplite unit for Saka Rauka I believe with scale armour.

Units which previously had the vanilla Hoplite Phalanx.

And other units which fought in a dense shieldwall or Phalanx, like the Germanic spearmen, swordsmen and pikemen.

I also really hope that this can also be included for stardard EB!

**Moros** · 03-02-2009, 17:43

Originally Posted by Phalanx300

I also really hope that this can also be included for stardard EB!

There were plans if I'm not mistaken.

**Phalanx300** · 03-02-2009, 17:45

Interesting, well seeing all the solutions to make a accurate shieldwall/phalanx when not using a formation. This one is probably the best and most historical.

**Zett** · 03-02-2009, 17:48

Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

I do however think that someone needs to fraps one of these and show us or we could create a thread in the mods forum and make a mod based on this idea.

EDU: http://files.filefront.com/export+de.../fileinfo.html
Hoplitai Haploi, Massilian Medium Hoplites, Poeni Citizen Militia, Ekdromoi Hoplitai (sorry, will be changed), Red Sea Hoplites (sorry will be changed) and Iphikratous Hoplitai have 0.3 density
Classicals, KH elite Hoplites, Thorakitai Hoplitai + Basilikon Agema (Ptolemaioi) ,Baktrian elite Hoplites, Syracuse Hoplites (sorry, will be changed), Trarii and Liby-Phoenician Infantry (early/late) have 0.25 density

Perhaps someone want to do some tests, if I remember correctly, that was a SP EDU i made some time ago (last year or something like that, right after EB 1.2 was released).

**Zett** · 03-02-2009, 17:58

Originally Posted by Phalanx300

The Hoplitai Hellenikoi, a Hoplite unit for Saka Rauka I believe with scale armour.

Are you sure about this guys?

Originally Posted by Phalanx300

And other units which fought in a dense shieldwall or Phalanx, like the Germanic spearmen, swordsmen and pikemen.

Please lets leave the barbarian phalanxes out at first, I'm overflooded at the moment (two EDU windows, several Windows of the .org and my dictoinary)

. Foot must be some kind of God to manage this kind of work every day...

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What about the Massaliotai Hoplitai and the Red Sea Hoplites, should they get a lower density (at all, but especially at Phalanx300)?

**Moros** · 03-02-2009, 19:17

Massalians I'd wait with them. Red Sea hoplites should get it IMO.

**SwissBarbar** · 03-02-2009, 19:26

I changed my mind concerning the Massaliotai Hoplitai. They fight with longswords in melee and are of "wild" Celtic origin, and therefore don't fight in SUCH a dense formation as the Greek Hoplitai do.

Originally Posted by Phalanx300

Yes! I would totally support it. Give it to all units on the list, except:

The Ekdromoi, they were used to chase skirmishers and would thus not fight in the Phalanx.

The Thorakitai, they didn't fought in the Phalanx as far as I'm aware.

Units to further include:

The Hoplitai Hellenikoi, a Hoplite unit for Saka Rauka I believe with scale armour.

Units which previously had the vanilla Hoplite Phalanx.

And other units which fought in a dense shieldwall or Phalanx, like the Germanic spearmen, swordsmen and pikemen.

I also really hope that this can also be included for stardard EB!

Did you refer to my list? Because actually I totally agree with you concerning the Thorakitai, Ekdromoi and Germanic dudes. I have them under "no" - meaning: nope, they don't need more density.

**Zett** · 03-02-2009, 20:38

I added some screenshots (see first post). I gave Spartiatai Hoplitai 0.2 density, Epilektoi Holitai 0.23 (yep I use the bodygardskin cause it looks cooler), Hoplitai 0.25 and the Haploi Hoplitai 0.3, the Syrakosioi Hoplitai are using default density (0.4). Here is the Multiplayer EDU which I used to make the screenshots: link

**SwissBarbar** · 03-02-2009, 20:54

On this pic the overlapping shields are very nice! The only thing I don't like is when they charge. They should keep the shields in front position.

**Phalanx300** · 03-02-2009, 21:55

I do think that the Barbarian Phalanxes should also get it, if you read their unit discription you'll see that it are essantially shield walls, at least that is the case with the Sweboz.

For the Syracusians 0.3 would be better, they fought in a more loose formation but it was still a Phalanx (though their version was more of a hedgehog kind).

And the Massilians, I'd give them the same as the classical ones.

Are you sure about this guys?

Yea, their unit discription says that they fought the same as other Hoplites, only in service of Saka Rauka with scale armour. Their aspis also prooves it.

What about the Massaliotai Hoplitai and the Red Sea Hoplites, should they get a lower density (at all, but especially at Phalanx300)?

Massilians, I'd put them the same as classical Hoplites. And Red Sea Hoplites, I don't know how dense they are in standard formation. They were used for front line combat I think against Africans, I'd say 0.3 then if they should get it?

And the Triarii should get 0.23, they were elite infantry after all.

And about Spartans, I would let them stay at 0.2, they had more intensive training then the Epileptikoi of other cities(in my opinion). The Agoge at this time still was the hardest training in the world.

**SwissBarbar** · 03-02-2009, 22:03

Then I misread your post

**Phalanx300** · 03-02-2009, 22:06

Hehe

. Hoplite Phalanxes were essentially also shield walls, Germanics also formed shield walls so I see no reason to apply it to them also(and other shieldwall/previous Phalanx units).

**soup_alex** · 03-02-2009, 22:16

At the risk of sounding like a complete idiot:

What difference does it (spacing) make in the Rome engine?

(AFAIK, the negatives outweigh the positives: more limited frontage and exposing your flanks (1v1), and greater vulnerability to missile fire? Do units with tighter spacing share defence bonuses for shields? Or is it about concentration, i.e. more tightly-packed units can direct more attacks and be targetted by fewer opponents in return?)

Also, what is the standard unit of measurement for spacing (I'm guessing the "TW metre")?

Cheers.

**mlc82** · 03-02-2009, 23:13

Anyone know how this method compares to TWFanatic's hoplite mod?

**Phalanx300** · 03-02-2009, 23:19

soup, it makes them stay closer together, thus them being able to strike more enemies from the front, and easier enveloped as well.

mlc, I think that it is better, as the pushing with short_pike is a tad extreme.

**Tellos Athenaios** · 03-03-2009, 02:54

Originally Posted by SwissBarbar

On this pic the overlapping shields are very nice! The only thing I don't like is when they charge. They should keep the shields in front position.

I suppose it is actually quite realistic that they _don't_ keep the shields perfectly right in front of them when charging. I mean, think about it: if you advance step by step it's possible (with a lot of training) to keep that big shield reasonably steadily in front of you; but if you are charging? I'd imagine that your shield would get in the way of your legs (knees, actually), no?

**SwissBarbar** · 03-03-2009, 08:09

Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

I suppose it is actually quite realistic that they _don't_ keep the shields perfectly right in front of them when charging. I mean, think about it: if you advance step by step it's possible (with a lot of training) to keep that big shield reasonably steadily in front of you; but if you are charging? I'd imagine that your shield would get in the way of your legs (knees, actually), no?

Well, that exactly is the point. Hoplitai do not charge like a bunch of barbaroi, they advance slower and in Formation. Therefore I'd like to see them attacking slower

**Zett** · 03-03-2009, 08:11

What about the Basilikon Agema (Royal Guards)?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

The unit descrition says nothing about fighting as a phalanx (only fighting with a dory spear). They only share the same model with the Thorakitai Hoplitai, but IMO we should delete them from the unit list. They fought as Royal Guards and elite infantery, they do not need a lower density.

About the Massaliotai:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

I think we should give them a density of 0.3. Same level as native greek Haploi Hoplitai, to simulate the celtic influence.

About the Syrakosioi:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

These men hail from one of the greatest poleis built by Hellenes, that of Syrakousai. The Syrakosioi Hoplitai are equipped with Italo-Attic helmets, lamellate cuirasses, armoured pteryges, aspis shield and greaves, while they carry a longer spear than most hoplitai use and a short sword for close melee. Centuries of warfare against armies different from that found in Hellas proper have changed the Syrakosioi Hoplitai's equipment and tactics somewhat compared to their �mainland cousins�. They are still meant to pin enemy troops down for others to hack to pieces, but unlike other Hellenic spearmen they can fare relatively well in close melee, using their shortswords to stab quicky beneath their aspis shields.

Historically, Syrakousai was among the greatest cities in the Hellenic world and who had for centuries waged wars against many enemies, mainly Carthage. Syrakousai had arguably the greatest army numerically among the Hellenic city-states and its Hoplitai formed the nucleus. The Syrakosioi Hoplitai were armed and fought as regular Hoplitai, although they adjusted themselves to the more free flowing and more organized forms of western infantry warfare (as in west of Greece). While in Greece proper it was largely hoplite against hoplite or against poor non-Hellenic infantry (the Thracians being the notable exception), in the western Mediterranean Syrakousai had to face Carthaginians in the west and Ligurian, Bruttian and Lucanian pirates and mercenaries from the north and also Illyrians, Gauls and other peoples who raided Sicily fairly regularly when they had a chance, which mostly meant whenever Syrakousai and Carthage were at war.
Syrakosioi Hoplitai fought in a less dense formation than normal for Hoplitai, but with longer spears, which they wielded with underhand thrusts. This meant that they could pin down enemy infantry with a sort of "hedgehog shieldwall" for the heavy Epilektoi soldiers to break through the middle, and cavalry to hit the flanks. In addition they also dropped the xiphos sword in favour of a shortsword made for stabbing, which they used to stab beneath their aspis shields, a technique Syrakousai adopted alongside the hoplitai of Taras anes who were more adept at close combat melee than the soldiers fielded in Greece.

They fought in a less dense formation, therefore they shouldn't get a lower density.

About the Hoplitai Troglodutikes (Red Sea Hoplites):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Hoplitai Troglodutikes (Erythraian Sea Hoplites) are mostly Hellenic colonists who were drawn to the Erythraian Sea coast. After initial exploration Ptolemaioi founded colonies in there to hunt elephants and trade with the natives and as far as India. Local garisson forces took part in those hunts and many of the veterans remained on those colonies after retiring. As in each Hellenic polis, a local force of hoplites would be summoned at time of need. Having completed the rigorous "ephebike askesis" they would be ready to fight against their enemies and as such the rigorous demands for citizenship have been lowered to whomever is available. The enemies aren't hoplites or Phallangitai. They are the skirmishers and spearmen of the Troglodytai, the fierce archers of Meroe and Inner Aithiopia, and maybe even the lightly armored but deadly Sabaioi. Hellenic discipline and courage can win the day, but not by underestimation of those enemies. Against those, while retaining the same offensive equipment, (spear and aspis shield), bronze muscle cuirass and linothorax have been dumped in favor of lighter quilted armour. It is easier to wear in the tropics as ancient Aigyptioi had proven. No pteryges, as they add to weight and can raise body temperature. A trusty "machaira" compliments their equipment too. Their helmet is an evolved Boiotian, the ideal helmet for providing some sort of eye protection in the desert and african coast. Their aspis has no bronze coating, relying on elephant skin instead. Natives had been using such an arrangement, for some time. Now Hoplitai Troglodutikes must do the same.

Historically Ptolemaioi were very interested in the southern regions of their domain. Akte Troglodutike or the coast of the Troglodutes was perhaps the "wild, unexplored" frontier of the time. The rising elephant hunts as well as the trade with Sabaioi and Indoi, led to the founding of a series of Colonies, with Filotera, "founded by Satyr [a Ptolemaioi general] when he was sent hunting elephants in Troglodytiki" (Strabo,16,4-5) being the first. Soon enough, Arsinoe Troglodytiki, Berenike Troglodytiki, Ptolemais of the Elephantotheron (Elephant hunters) were founded. As frontiermen always do, those people cared more for what someone could do, not the purity of his Hellenic blood. Thus Hellenised Aigyptians and other nationals could be there and perfectly fit in. However rich and promising their situation was, their enemies were at the doors as to a Troglodyte which many of them were, the Colonists were godly rich. The local hoplites fight as ekdromoi mostly, since this is the only way they can effectively deal with the fluid battlefield environment in that area. Colonies in that region existed for many centuries and that was due, in no small part to the ability of their inhabitants to defend them.

The description says, that they fought as Ekdromoi ("skirmisher hunter"). They had to be fast to catch up with skirmishers, Hoplitephalanx was too slow to do so. IMO they should stay as they are, no lower density.

**SwissBarbar** · 03-03-2009, 08:35

Right you are, but concerning the Massaliotai: They abandon the Phalany pretty always as melee starts ;-)

**Zett** · 03-03-2009, 08:40

Originally Posted by SwissBarbar

Right you are, but concerning the Massaliotai: They abandon the Phalany pretty always as melee starts ;-)

I want to take them out too, but Phalanx300 will kill me if I do so.

What about the Hypaspistai?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

They fought mostly as assaulttroops and mobile elite troops. They carried only the equipment of Hoplites, but were used for support missions, if they should hold a line, they were deployed as Arygraspides. So I think we should let them as they are, no lower density. They have very good stats too, so giving them a lower density would make them even stronger.

**Phalanx300** · 03-03-2009, 13:29

I want to take them out too, but Phalanx300 will kill me if I do so.

I will indeed!

Though for the Massilians, they were Greek colonist with Celtic influenced armour. I don't see how that would mean are looser Phalanx. I would keep them at 0.25 personally.

What about the Hypaspistai?

They fought as elite Hoplites, thus putting them in 0.23 would be better.

Alexander(at the part you bolded) used them as assault troops, however at EB time that role was taken over by the Peltastai Makedonikoi.

If they fought as Hoplites we should show that, no matter if they were used different before EB time or sometimes used as other units(then you might as well take those other units

).

What about the Basilikon Agema (Royal Guards)?

I'd say 0.23, they were used like Iphikratous Hoplites and were a elite unit.

About the Syrakosioi:

They should definately get a looser formation! They still fought in a Phalanx(it's in the bolded part, it says they fought like Hoplites and still in a Phalanx), just in a less dense one. 0.3 would fit best, or possibly even 0.35.

About the Hoplitai Troglodutikes (Red Sea Hoplites):

Ok I agree on this, if they were used to catch Skirmishers then they fought as individual units.

The Iphikratous should get 0.25(as they fought as ordinary Hoplites in a reformed Phalanx, and the Thorakitai Hoplitai should get 0.23 as well, they were a elite unit after all. Even able to break the Roman left in battle!

The early Triarii should get 0.23 as well, they were a elite Hoplite unit.

Poeni Citizen Militia should get 0.3 as they were levy Hoplites.

The Poenician-Lybian Hoplites(early and late) should get 0.25 as they fought as ordinary Hoplites.

The Sacred Band should definately get 0.23, they were a elite Poeni Phalanx. They even reminded the greek colonist of the Theban sacred band, that should say enough.

**V.T. Marvin** · 03-03-2009, 13:49

Originally Posted by Phalanx300

Though for the Massilians, they were Greek colonist with Celtic influenced armour. I don't see how that would mean are looser Phalanx. I would keep them at 0.25 personally.

The trouble with Massilians (and Baktrian Agema and like units too) is that the engine does not change the spacing when using different weapons (i.e. spear vs. sword). Therefore the spacing of such particular "double-wielding" unit should represent a sensible compromise between dense order of hoplite phalanx and looser order needed to use the swords (and especially Celtic longswords of Massilians!!!) to their full potential.

My point is: yes, there is a reason to give Massilians closer order similar to other hoplites BUT the incredibility of fighting with longswords in such a closer order is overruling consideration and they should stay as they are, IMHO.

(Quite frankly, to me it seems that even current spacing of the Massilians is too close for longsword fighters, but I understand that this precisely because they are hoplite phalanx as well at the same time.)

**Phalanx300** · 03-03-2009, 14:09

In earlier times Hoplites also had long swords, thats no reason that you aren't able to form a Phalanx. After all in the Phalanx the best weapon is a short dagger like the Spartans eventually used. Some Hoplites also used axes, would they also need more space?

The sword is a secondary weapon, when one drew it out it didn't mean that he went out of formation and went berserk at the front rank.

Also another unit for the density is the elite Phoenician-Lybian unit of Carthage (those with the axes on their shields).

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