EB for ETW ideas

[chairman]

I was rather intrigued by the short thread concerning ETW as a possibility for a later version of EB (started by Antinous). As Oudysseos and Foot so correctly stated however, that thread's main purpose had nothing to do with EB. So in the interest of brainstorming ideas about using new features from the upcoming ETW for EB, I have created this thread. Please keep all posts on topic so that we respect the wishes of the moderators and the EB Team.

To moderators: if this should be in another section (e.g. EBII or hosted EB mods) please move it there.

Special disclaimer: this is not at all related to the EB Team and has no prior or anticipated future specific approval or input from them. All of my comments are purely those of a non-team member fan.

Brainstorm away

Chairman

[Mulceber]

naval battles would be fun in EB, but as stated before, I'm not sure if it would work properly for a couple reasons:

1. triremes were primarily intended for ramming, whereas 18th century vessels did almost none of that (and never intentionally)

2. the game apparently requires you to sail with the currents, and I'm not sure if the AI would be able to figure out oars, which would obviously negate that, although it could add an interesting component to naval combat - rowing allows you to go where you want, but tires your men out faster, sailing tires them out more slowly, but you're reliant on the wind.

Also, I'm not sure that land combat would work as well either, since ETW is focusing pretty much on ranged combat and RTW is mostly melee.

However, I could see this game also opening up a lot of opportunities.

50 available factions means we could add close to 20 factions to EB - thus allowing for Numidia, several more barbarian tribes, syrakousai, India and several other important (but regrettably too small) factions to be represented.

better AI means we might not have to endure all the complaints about the RTW AI

More available provinces means we could also perhaps extend the map even further, encompassing all of India, and perhaps even getting in some or all of China, as well as exploring some of the subsaharan african cultures from that time. The sky's the limit. Heck, if we get enough writers/programmers, it would theoretically be possible to do a world campaign. Think about it, now when you say "I just conquered the world with my ______ faction, you'd actually mean it!" -M

[desert]

Imperial Roman legionnaries obliterating hordes of Epi-Olmecs.

[A Very Super Market]

At least we know that elephants are in ETW.

It would be interesting to have China, but the AI would have to be very passive, otherwise it would pull a Ptolemaioi and conquer all of Asia.

[Aemilius Paulus]

At least we know that elephants are in ETW.

It would be interesting to have China, but the AI would have to be very passive, otherwise it would pull a Ptolemaioi and conquer all of Asia.

That could be fixed with the fact that unless Siberia is going to be included, most of China is blocked off from the rest of the world by the Himalayas. But then you have naval invasions...

[A Very Super Market]

Vietnam, Thailand, Korea, Japan, India. Unless you nerf China extremely, all those factions are more or less dead. India may put up a fight, but it also has to deal with the Europeans, while China has had 20+ years to dominate the rest of Asia.

[Cute Wolf]

I look forward for Ashigaru spearmen fight against Hoplitai haploi...

BTW, did that wolrd campaign include America? Awww... nice

[gamegeek2]

Wait, let's pretend that this is done only on the EB map.

Think of how many Celtic factions there would be.

[Megas Methuselah]

Boats will be able to ram each other in ETW. However, considerable damage will be done to both ships, so the whole thing will have to be modified a bit. Despite this, the question on ramming cannot fully be answered until ETW actually comes out... on March 3.

Also, ETW will only include Europe, North and Central America, North Africa, Middle-East, and India. Let's hope for a mod to put in the rest of the world.

[Novellus]

Boats will be able to ram each other in ETW. However, considerable damage will be done to both ships, so the whole thing will have to be modified a bit. Despite this, the question on ramming cannot fully be answered until ETW actually comes out... on March 3.

Also, ETW will only include Europe, North and Central America, North Africa, Middle-East, and India. Let's hope for a mod to put in the rest of the world.

Wait a second, they can? Can you verify? It's too good to be true!

[Mulceber]

It wouldn't be too hard either - that's the northern hemisphere basically, and if you look at the southern hemisphere, that's mostly water. -M

[desert]

Australian Aboriginals throwing themselves on the spears of Inuit seal-hunters!!!!

[Cute Wolf]

50++ faction, and we will got syracuse, ethiophia, india, and nearly every independent poleis outside koinnon Hellenon..... in EB map.....

hope we don't screwed with far longer loading time than EB

[Mulceber]

My concern with the Syrakousai is not letting them get too powerful. I mean, they should be there, but they really shouldn't control anything except maybe a couple islands on sicily and maybe in the mediterranean. they really shouldn't be moving up the italian peninsula, which something tells me the TW AI would do. Also, I'm not very well versed in this, but how accurate is the Koinon Hellenon? I mean, I know it's units and buildings are accurate to Greece, but was there really such a coalition of Sparta Athens and Rhodes? Wouldn't it be far more accurate in EBIII to replace Koinon Hellenon with the Achaean and Aetolian leagues that Polybius mentions? -M

[desert]

The Chremonidean League/Koinon hellenon was indeed real, albeit extremely short-lived.

[Mulceber]

hmm...shame. Oh well, I guess history has to take precedence. It's too bad we can't make the Greek city states a cluster of independent states and then just make it easy for them to become protectorates/client kingdoms of each other. -M

[A Very Super Market]

I think ETW will do that with the German states, as it was in real life.

[chairman]

Wow. Great ideas. Thanks for all of this so far.

As far as ramming goes, it would be accurate for mediterranean galleys to use ramming to a limited extant, the main issue being that galleys were replaced by purely sail-powered ships by around 1700, meaning that CA may decide not to bother including the ramming function within ETW. However, if they do, it would definitely allow for realistic galley combat, which is a must for an ETW based EB.

The focus on ranged combat could go either way, depending on how it is implemented. Archers, and skirmishers might possibly react more realistically when engaging in pre-battle skirmish. This would be especially helpfull in portraying the ranged combat of Persia and the East. However, it is also possible that focus would only inhibit melee troops from acting normally, which would be very unfortunate. We will have to wait and see.

50 factions, "unlimited" provinces .... does anyone have an estimate of the unit limit? This is very important. I have indeed read comments by EB team members that stated to the effect that a higher unit limit is more important than more factions or even provinces, in a similar way the unlimited model number of M2TW is more important than all of these other factors for EBII.

Makes me hopeful for the future of EB. Keep brainstorming more ideas Orgahs.

Chairman

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Off topi thread. Spam thread? Lock time?

[oudysseos]

Maybe just move it as op suggested?

I think it's funny no-one has mentioned what I think is one of the most original and exciting features of ETW: theatres. Apparently there are three theatres of war, with quick travel options between them. What that makes possible for a hellenistic era mod (or any other era) is a high level of local detail now impossible with M2TW or RTW. What I mean is, you could have 'Greece and Asia Minor' as one theatre, with every major Greek city-state on a detailed map, and then move to another theatre, say, 'Persia and India', with the same level of detail. Essentially they have made it possible to integrate seperate local campaigns into a coherent whole.

But MAA is right, this doesn't have much to do with EB or EB2. It belongs in the ETW forum.

[chairman]

MAA & Oudysseos: I don't see why this is off topic, and I feel disappointed that you would think that I would post any sort of spam on these forums. I take my responsibility as a member of these forums very seriously, and I only try to contribute to the knowledge and enjoyment of other members while learning what I can from those members who have their own insight to contribute. As my small post count indicates, I only post when I think it is important or worthwhile. I completely understood the reasons that Antinous' ETW thread was locked after the original question was answered, but I believe that this thread is appropriate for the EB forum. Its purpose is to discuss how ETW could be used to enhance EB in later versions. So far, those who have posted have only posted relevant, and in my humble opinion, insightful subject matter. I ask you to please allow this thread to remain open as long as it remains on topic (which it so far has). The only reason that in my original post I asked moderators to move this thread if appropriate was that I did not know whether the general EB or EBII forums would be better suited.

As respectful as always

Chairman

[oudysseos]

Chairman, I don't speak officially for the EB team in these matters so don't take my comments in that way. I don't think that your posts are in the least spam, but they are about a hypothetical EB3 mod for ETW. Since EB2 is not yet finished and ETW is not yet released, and since this forum is intended to be about EB 1 for RTW, I do think that the ETW part of the org is more appropriate. There is even a subforum for ETW mods. Start a thread there? You can link it in your signature if you want to draw attention to it.

[chairman]

Thank you Oudysseos for your response. I understand what you are saying about the ETW forums.

However, in the past, there have been instances of moderators asking members to move their topics from the EBII forum since they only concerned EB in general as opposed to EBII in specific. While this forum began as a forum specifically for EBI for RTW, it has now become the "EB Forum mainpage" if you will, which I believe means that it is the appropriate place for non-spam, on topic, EB related content that does not specifically fall under the categories of EBII, Bugs & Help, unofficial mods or AARs. As this thread concerns EB in general but does not fall under any of the aforementioned categories, it is my humble opinion that it belongs in the EB general forum.

Please excuse me if any of my posts seem rude or insincere. That would be the opposite of my intentions, and I do everything I can (within the confines of internet communication) to assure that my posts are understood as the respectful and sincere messages that I intend them to be.

It seems that in my attempt to justify this threads original purpose I have changed it. I'm sorry. If you wish to continue this conversation please PM me.

Thank you again

Chairman

[oudysseos]

You are not in the least rude or insincere and your point about this forum being the EB 'main page' is a very good one.
There has in fact been a lot of discussion in the EB dev forum about the issue of the forum and what if anything to do about it. The problem is that a lot of time is spent by EB moderators in tracking down spam and trolls (not you by any stretch), time that could be better spent.

So whaddya think about theatres? To me, another 20+ factions is not so important: it's hard enough to get work done on the 10 new factions for EB2. At some point you just gotta say enough.

[chairman]

Thanks again Oudysseos.

Indeed I agree about the relative unimportance of so many more faction slots. As I said earlier, IMHO it is the unit limit that is the most pressing feature, being the main limiting factor on the ability of EB to expand.

I am unfamiliar with the theaters concept so I don't have much of an opinion or very many ideas regarding it. It sounds useful, like you said to show dense areas like Greece and Asia Minor. However I worry that the areas in between theaters will get less attention and detail.

Chairman

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

My post was really concerning the OP or the topic but rather a warning against stupid one-liners that have no purpose or are "fan-boy-ish". I, personally, won't close this thread, yet. Though, keep it organized.

[chairman]

Thanks MAA. After I posted in response to your warning, I reviewed the thread again and noticed what you were talking about. I will try to keep it more organized. Thanks again.

@Oudysseos: how does the theaters feature work, and how many theaters are possible for a single campaign map? What other areas of the map do you think would be worth using this for aside from Greece and Asia Minor?

To other posters: please try to keep comments on topic so that we can respect the wishes of the moderators and the trust they have placed in us to allow us to post in this thread. Thank you

Chairman

[Antinous]

Maybe Korinthos could be split into elis for the eastern Korinthean land. This way greece could be a little more challenging.

[desert]

What about Argos?

[Mulceber]

I agree, there should be more cities in greece. Athens, Corinth and Sparta really aren't enough. -M