Page 1 of 6 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 160

Thread: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

  1. #1
    a.k.a. Burebista Member Βελισάριος's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Halfway between 'nowhere' and 'goodbye'
    Posts
    273

    Default Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    The other thread was getting too confusing and clotted with too many different topics.

    Therefore, I created this one expressly for the purpose of discussing the outcome of the various battles fought.
    Fas est et ab hoste doceri. As the Romans would say.

    Here are the replays of the battle fought so far:

    To view:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Run EB, then go to "Load Game" and click "Load Battle Replay".

    To view them, you first have to put them into your replay folder. That should be [RTW folder name]/EB/replays
    [Or, apparently, if you have Vista, hell-knows-where.] If you don't have the folder, you can create it yourself.
    Or, play any random battle you choose and the thread should create itself.


    Just for fun


    Official Tournament battles:
    Last edited by Βελισάριος; 03-12-2009 at 04:31.
    To settle the deal between Romans and Greeks once and for all... both Italy and Greece are in deep s*** at the moment. Do you really think who had the biggest spear in antiquity makes any difference?

  2. #2
    αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν Member tsidneku's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    83

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    Sorry, Bure -- or someone, kindly refresh my Latin for me. I'm rusty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Βελισάριος View Post
    Fas est et ab hoste doceri. As the Romans would say.
    Fas is undeclined -- I assume it's either nominative or accusative.
    "It is right/just to teach _______ from the enemy."

    I can't figure out where the et goes and why doceri -- to teach/show -- is used?
    Last edited by tsidneku; 03-03-2009 at 23:38.

  3. #3
    Guest desert's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    The greatest polis built by men.
    Posts
    1,120

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    I saw that quote in EB, I think. If I remember correctly, it means "It is right to learn from the enemy."

  4. #4
    Member Member Nachtmeister's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Hamburg, Germany
    Posts
    386

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by tsidneku View Post
    Sorry, Bure -- or someone, kindly refresh my Latin for me. I'm rusty.



    Fas is undeclined -- I assume it's either nominative or accusative.
    "It is right/just to teach _______ from the enemy."

    I can't figure out where the et goes and why doceri -- to teach/show -- is used?

    That's "learn", not "teach" ...

    Thus, by literal meaning, the whole phrase goes
    "It is appropriate to learn from the enemy".

    See, the Romans were themselves aware of the fact that their greatness came from borrowing different bits of know-how from their various enemies, thus making the enemies their subjects.


    *EDIT* Argh, desert you seem to have faster fingers than I.
    Last edited by Nachtmeister; 03-04-2009 at 00:57.

    I am honoured to have been presented with my first baloons - - by Ibrahim for tactical observations
    and with my second balloon by Christopher Burgoyne for physical elaboration on the advantages conferred by the Kontos over the Xyston.

  5. #5
    αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν Member tsidneku's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    83

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    Nevermind, I'm a dumbass. Made a mistake -- doceri is the passive infinitive; not the active. And "et" is translated "even" here.

    "It is right/appropriate to be taught even by an/the enemy."

  6. #6
    Dux and Strategos Member Potocello's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    369

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    This is really nice perhaps a balloon is in order?
    "Go and tell the Spartans, stranger passing by, that here obedient to their laws we lie"
    - from Tiberius Claudius Marcellus

    Look out for the upcoming PBM! Get ready to defend your tribe from both external and internal rivals!

  7. #7
    a.k.a. Burebista Member Βελισάριος's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Halfway between 'nowhere' and 'goodbye'
    Posts
    273

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    "It is right to learn even from the enemy." That's right.

    Funny how I made the thread to discuss battles and we start by discussing Latin
    To settle the deal between Romans and Greeks once and for all... both Italy and Greece are in deep s*** at the moment. Do you really think who had the biggest spear in antiquity makes any difference?

  8. #8
    Apprentice Geologist Member Blxz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Cairns
    Posts
    780

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    Next battle done.
    http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mznniw5nmm2
    beautiful battle, pure majesty. can't believe i lost so damn badly.
    Completed Campaigns:
    Macedonia EB 0.81 / Saby'n EB 1.1
    Qart'Hadarst EB 1.2 / Hai EB 1.2
    Current Campiagns:
    Getai/Sauromatae/Baktria
    donated by Brennus for attention to detail.

  9. #9
    Strategos Autokrator Member Vasiliyi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    839

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    I have tried to download the videos to watch but for some reason they arent allowing me to play them. what program are you useing to watch them

    4x
    1x

  10. #10
    Slixpoitation Member A Very Super Market's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada, North America, Terra, Sol, Milky Way, Local Cluster, Universe
    Posts
    3,700

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    I have no idea how to view them...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    WELCOME TO AVSM
    Cool store, bro! I want some ham.
    No ham, pepsi.
    They make deli slices of frozen pepsi now? Awesome!
    You also need to purchase a small freezer for storage of your pepsi.
    It runs on batteries. You'll need a few.
    Uhh, I guess I won't have pepsi then. Do you have change for a twenty?
    You can sift through the penny jar
    ALL WILL BE CONTINUED

    - Proud Horseman of the Presence

  11. #11
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    ゞ( ゚Д゚)ゞ
    Posts
    5,974

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    EB Single -> load -> watch battle replay .
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



    "Hi, Billy Mays Here!" 1958-2009

  12. #12
    a.k.a. Burebista Member Βελισάριος's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Halfway between 'nowhere' and 'goodbye'
    Posts
    273

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    You run EB, you go to "Load Game" click "Load Battle Replay".
    They're not videos, they're RTW battle replay files.

    To view them, you first have to put them into your replay folder. That should be [RTW folder name]/EB/replays
    Or, apparently, if you have Vista, hell-knows-where.
    If you don't have the folder, you can create it yourself.
    To settle the deal between Romans and Greeks once and for all... both Italy and Greece are in deep s*** at the moment. Do you really think who had the biggest spear in antiquity makes any difference?

  13. #13
    Slixpoitation Member A Very Super Market's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada, North America, Terra, Sol, Milky Way, Local Cluster, Universe
    Posts
    3,700

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    Oh good god, that was stupid of me.

    Thanks, mate!
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    WELCOME TO AVSM
    Cool store, bro! I want some ham.
    No ham, pepsi.
    They make deli slices of frozen pepsi now? Awesome!
    You also need to purchase a small freezer for storage of your pepsi.
    It runs on batteries. You'll need a few.
    Uhh, I guess I won't have pepsi then. Do you have change for a twenty?
    You can sift through the penny jar
    ALL WILL BE CONTINUED

    - Proud Horseman of the Presence

  14. #14

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by Blxz View Post
    Next battle done.
    http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mznniw5nmm2
    beautiful battle, pure majesty. can't believe i lost so damn badly.
    It was a fun battle. I think it hurt most for you when my pantodopoi chased your cavalry on the left flank away (they must have been on skirmish mode, I think). I'm sure when we have our inevitable rematch you'll be ready for them.

    Incidentally, Burebista, that battle was the official tournament one between Blxz and I. Just to make that clear.
    Last edited by Gabeed; 03-04-2009 at 06:42.
    Balloons collected:
    Campaigns completed: Vanilla Armenia, Vanilla BI Western Roman Empire and Berbers

  15. #15
    Cavalry Fanatic Member Tolg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    195

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by Βελισάριος View Post
    You run EB, you go to "Load Game" click "Load Battle Replay".
    They're not videos, they're RTW battle replay files.

    To view them, you first have to put them into your replay folder. That should be [RTW folder name]/EB/replays
    Or, apparently, if you have Vista, hell-knows-where.
    If you don't have the folder, you can create it yourself.
    Why should Vista change the location of folders/files which have absolutly nothing to do with the OS?

    BTW, I'm using Vista, it's the same folder.


    The first round of the tournament has started. Who's going to prevail?

    Gladius or Sarissa, Scutum or Aspis?

  16. #16
    Symbasileus ton Rhomaioktonon Member Maion Maroneios's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Heraklion, Crete, Greece
    Posts
    2,610

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    Guys, I believe we should discuss the first round of the tournament. I'm actually surprised that no one actually cared to do this, because I can that we have some mistakes on the side of the Romani. Don't take me wrong, it hasn't anything to do with me being on the side of the Hellenes. Let me explain what I mean in points:

    1) No Hastati, just Principes/Triarii on Tolg's side
    2) No 'historical' numbers of troops, and by that I mean the main Roman core. Just Principes and many Triarii, the latter being only used (historically) when the situation was very, very dire AFAIK. Also, since Tolg used Pedites, he should also have used Hastati Samnitici.
    3) Too many Equites Extraordinarii. WAY too many.
    4) No levy phalanx on Phalanx300's side, but a reasonably balanced army nevertheless.

    For those reasons, I believe this battle should be fought again. Don't want to be too strict from the start, though I hope people can understand my points and consider them at least.

    Maion
    Last edited by Maion Maroneios; 03-04-2009 at 10:20.
    ~Maion

  17. #17
    αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν Member tsidneku's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    83

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    Maion, while I agree with you about the historical nature of army composition, I think it will be hard to impose accurate army composition unless you lay out strictly composed armies to choose from.

    Contestants will always try to form an unique/elite/most effective army. A common trend, that I myself admit to submitting to as well, is the inclusion of massive amounts of cavalry -- 4-6 units. One can argue that ratio to the standardized core of any army is massive.

  18. #18
    Cavalry Fanatic Member Tolg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    195

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios View Post
    Guys, I believe we should discuss the first round of the tournament. I'm actually surprised that no one actually cared to do this, because I can that we have some mistakes on the side of the Romani. Don't take me wrong, it hasn't anything to do with me being on the side of the Hellenes. Let me explain what I mean in points:

    1) No Hastati, just Principes/Triarii on Tolg's side
    2) No 'historical' numbers of troops, and by that I mean the main Roman core. Just Principes and many Triarii, the latter being only used (historically) when the situation was very, very dire AFAIK. Also, since Tolg used Pedites, he should also have used Hastati Samnitici.
    3) Too many Equites Extraordinarii. WAY too many.
    4) No levy phalanx on Phalanx300's side, but a reasonably balanced army nevertheless.

    For those reasons, I believe this battle should be fought again. Don't want to be too strict from the start, though I hope people can understand my points and consider them at least.

    Maion

    If we had made 100% (or even 65%) historical armies a rule we would have to reduce the money eve further to even give the Romans a chance of winning. Even with my elite army I don't use 40000 (still ~3500 left) This however would mean that the Greeks could only choose between having ~8 moderate units or a levy/almost levy full stack.

    Basically the problem is that roman armies are much cheaper than Greek ones. All the more as the Romans have no real elite units. (Pedites are very good, but not at the level of Hetaroi.)

    "Historical Tournament" sounds nice, but I doubt that it is even possible wit the RTW engine.


    The first round of the tournament has started. Who's going to prevail?

    Gladius or Sarissa, Scutum or Aspis?

  19. #19
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    ゞ( ゚Д゚)ゞ
    Posts
    5,974

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    We can't really make realistic armies as the Romani because of money issues and the fact that the Successor Cavalry arms are ridiculously powerful and hard to counter with Equites due to them not having a AP weapon.

    The closest I've come to it is 6 Hastati, 6 Principles, 3 Triarii, and 5 Equites Extraordinary with everything but the Hastati chevroned.
    Last edited by antisocialmunky; 03-04-2009 at 13:32.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



    "Hi, Billy Mays Here!" 1958-2009

  20. #20
    a.k.a. Burebista Member Βελισάριος's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Halfway between 'nowhere' and 'goodbye'
    Posts
    273

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    Maion, thanks for raising the issue.

    If you look in the first message in the initial thread, you'll see your "historical army" guide (which we'll need to update for the Romans and some of the Diadochoi as well), but it's under "guidelines".

    Much as I'd like perfectly historical battles, it's just not possible with the current engine, regardless of how hard the EB team might try.

    So, while Tolg won't be getting any historical accuracy points, his victory point is valid.

    It's nice to finally get some polemyc on the topic of battles, though.
    To settle the deal between Romans and Greeks once and for all... both Italy and Greece are in deep s*** at the moment. Do you really think who had the biggest spear in antiquity makes any difference?

  21. #21

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky View Post
    We can't really make realistic armies as the Romani because of money issues and the fact that the Successor Cavalry arms are ridiculously powerful and hard to counter with Equites due to them not having a AP weapon.

    The closest I've come to it is 6 Hastati, 6 Principles, 3 Triarii, and 5 Equites Extraordinary with everything but the Hastati chevroned.
    Are the updates allowed? Or do you just mean one bronze chevron as mentioned in the rules?

  22. #22
    Member Member Phalanx300's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Amersfoort
    Posts
    743

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    I only give chevrons for units to roleplay as another unit, like giving 1 unit of Spartans a chevron to play as the Hippeis. And one unit of Ekdromoi for the Skiritai(peltastai woukd be better but its not included for KH for some reason, alongside the Toxotai!)

  23. #23
    Guest Aemilius Paulus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Russia/Europe in the summer, Florida rest of the time
    Posts
    3,473

    Exclamation Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    Someone should use Fraps next time, so that the battle may be uploaded to YouTube. I hope that the lag created by it will not be too much. Oh, and also, I have heard that YouTube has a 15-minute limit, but I have seen much, much longer videos. How so?

  24. #24

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus View Post
    Someone should use Fraps next time, so that the battle may be uploaded to YouTube. I hope that the lag created by it will not be too much. Oh, and also, I have heard that YouTube has a 15-minute limit, but I have seen much, much longer videos. How so?
    We could use Fraps with the replay videos, and even add commentary a la Prince of Macedon. And I think Youtube has a 10 minute limit, though I've also seen longer videos before . . .
    Balloons collected:
    Campaigns completed: Vanilla Armenia, Vanilla BI Western Roman Empire and Berbers

  25. #25
    Guest Aemilius Paulus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Russia/Europe in the summer, Florida rest of the time
    Posts
    3,473

    Lightbulb Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabeed View Post
    We could use Fraps with the replay videos, and even add commentary a la Prince of Macedon. And I think Youtube has a 10 minute limit, though I've also seen longer videos before . . .
    Well, yes, that is what I was saying. Most of those videos that were longer happened to be of elevated importance, such as that 59 minute Time magazine interview of Putin or 40-minute lectures of some (nutjob) professor who thought that there was a Golden Age before Neolithic that was ended by a meteor (go figure). However, I have seen better lectures as well.

    What about MegaVideo or DailyMotion? What limits do they have?

  26. #26
    master of the wierd people Member Ibrahim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Who cares
    Posts
    6,121

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by tsidneku View Post
    Sorry, Bure -- or someone, kindly refresh my Latin for me. I'm rusty.



    Fas is undeclined -- I assume it's either nominative or accusative.
    "It is right/just to teach _______ from the enemy."

    I can't figure out where the et goes and why doceri -- to teach/show -- is used?

    "It is right to be taught from the enemy"

    Doceri is not a normal indictive infinitive.
    Last edited by Ibrahim; 03-04-2009 at 16:59.
    I was once alive, but then a girl came and took out my ticker.

    my 4 year old modding project--nearing completion: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=219506 (if you wanna help, join me).

    tired of ridiculous trouble with walking animations? then you need my brand newmotion capture for the common man!

    "We have proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that if we put the belonging to, in the I don't know what, all gas lines will explode " -alBernameg

  27. #27
    Σέλευκος Νικάτωρ Member Fluvius Camillus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    The Netherlands!
    Posts
    1,078

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    Important practice battle (copied from main thread):

    Ave Competitors

    To redeem myself I have practiced my tactics against another greek foe!

    Fluvius Camillus vs Irishhitman

    Replay of this practice match:
    http://www.mediafire.com/?kltn23wk2zx

    It was a very exciting (and long) battle.

    Polybian Romani versus Makedonia

    I employed the same tactics from the last fight against Tsidneku, this time I comitted no great errors, my tactic worked perfectly this time.

    Friend and Foe, learn from this fight and use these tactics on your own risk of defeat.

    First Part of the Fight
    I approached the Makedonian foe, when his missile infantry targeted me I was making a run for it. I split my reserves to join the flankers. Only the principes stood in the center, evading the slow phalanx. My flanking troops were superior to his and the Makedonian right flank crumbled soon. The cavalry fight was were I also had the upper hand. After the flankers of the enemy were massacred and both our cavalry was weared out, we both withdrew from combat, reforming our shattered lines.

    Second Part (long to watch)

    As I watched how we both formed our lines, I see the enemy form a defensive circle, immediately I attack the enemy to stop them from gaining a strong position. A extremely long cavalry chase and minor infantry skirmishes take place. After a long chase my cavalry stops trying to kill the remaining Makedonian cavalry. Then I attack the main phalanx lines from multiple sides, I withdraw sometimes but eventually we came into long melee, wearied from the chase, my general loses his life. Enveloping the remaining phalanx we fight to the death, using some troops to fend off the cavalry. The phalanx slowly dies, then the cavalry charges a final time and my infantry defeats the cavalry. The phalanx is then doomed, they fight to the very end. Finally, victory!

    We shall remember the noble commander who lost his life and hunt down the escaped enemy commander!

    That was the fight!

    ~Roma Victrix
    Last edited by Fluvius Camillus; 05-25-2009 at 10:07.
    Quote Originally Posted by Equilibrius
    Oh my god, i think that is the first time in human history that someone cares to explain an acronym that people expect everybody to know in advance.
    I lived for three years not knowing what AAR is.

    Completed Campaigns: Epeiros (EB1.0), Romani (EB1.1), Baktria (1.2) and Arche Seleukeia
    1x From Olaf the Great for my quote!
    3x1x<-- From Maion Maroneios for succesful campaigns!
    5x2x<-- From Aemilius Paulus for winning a contest!
    1x From Mulceber!

  28. #28
    Guest Aemilius Paulus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Russia/Europe in the summer, Florida rest of the time
    Posts
    3,473

    Question Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    So you won?

  29. #29
    Member Member Nachtmeister's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Hamburg, Germany
    Posts
    386

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by Nachtmeister View Post
    That's "learn", not "teach" ...

    Thus, by literal meaning, the whole phrase goes
    "It is appropriate to learn from the enemy".

    See, the Romans were themselves aware of the fact that their greatness came from borrowing different bits of know-how from their various enemies, thus making the enemies their subjects.


    *EDIT* Argh, desert you seem to have faster fingers than I.
    Quote Originally Posted by tsidneku View Post
    Nevermind, I'm a dumbass. Made a mistake -- doceri is the passive infinitive; not the active. And "et" is translated "even" here.

    "It is right/appropriate to be taught even by an/the enemy."
    Quote Originally Posted by Potocello View Post
    This is really nice perhaps a balloon is in order?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post
    "It is right to be taught from the enemy"

    Doceri is not a normal indictive infinitive.
    Yea, my bad a bit further up - otherwise it would be "fas est et ab hoste discere"...
    Why not in keeping with the EB players' spirit make it "et ab hoste discere iuvat" in the first place...
    But you definitely *can* phrase it "It is right to be taught by the enemy" unless I have it all
    totally backwards...?


    I am honoured to have been presented with my first baloons - - by Ibrahim for tactical observations
    and with my second balloon by Christopher Burgoyne for physical elaboration on the advantages conferred by the Kontos over the Xyston.

  30. #30
    αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν Member tsidneku's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    83

    Default Re: Legion vs. Phalanx online battle analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by Nachtmeister View Post
    Yea, my bad a bit further up - otherwise it would be "fas est et ab hoste discere"...
    Why not in keeping with the EB players' spirit make it "et ab hoste discere iuvat" in the first place...
    But you definitely *can* phrase it "It is right to be taught by the enemy" unless I have it all
    totally backwards...?

    lol @ the Latin discourse.
    Yes, they are mean the same thing idiomatically. Ab hoste as an ablative can be translated from/by/of the enemy.

    Regarding your question about why Burebista didn't phrase it another way is because that particular line is from Ovid. "fas est et ab hoste doceri" -- and now that I think about it, it's because its probably in meter and that's the word order is so abnormal (not that word order means anything in Latin poetry.. lol).

Page 1 of 6 12345 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO