Pakistan; About to fall the militant Islam?

[LittleGrizzly]

As a carry on from my last post should we not try to keep Pakistan together and let it become a failed state... just as Furunculus says and secure the nuke's...

Aren't we risking Pakistan becoming another Afghanistan then though... ?

[Subotan]

The decision to partition India was a collosal mistake. Us British, in our infinite, pigheaded wisdom decided that Indians, rather than being divided by hundreds of different languages, cultures or colours, were instead either Muslims, or Hindus.
As a result, Pakistan is in a similar situation to Afghanistan. Many different ethnicities, languages and cultures linked together only by loose collection of fanatical through to cultural Muslims. Pakistan is an artificial entity, and it could never have worked.

[rory_20_uk]

The decision to partition India was a collosal mistake. Us British, in our infinite, pigheaded wisdom decided that Indians, rather than being divided by hundreds of different languages, cultures or colours, were instead either Muslims, or Hindus.
As a result, Pakistan is in a similar situation to Afghanistan. Many different ethnicities, languages and cultures linked together only by loose collection of fanatical through to cultural Muslims. Pakistan is an artificial entity, and it could never have worked.

Pakistan is an artificial entity, but I fail to see where keeping the whole lot together would have worked. East Pakistan gained independence all by itself.

Secure the nukes, and let the state collapse. Those at the edges of failed states should slowly absorb territory until it reaches another viable state. Ditto Afghanistan. The means don't justify the ends.

[Jolt]

The decision to partition India was a collosal mistake. Us British, in our infinite, pigheaded wisdom decided that Indians, rather than being divided by hundreds of different languages, cultures or colours, were instead either Muslims, or Hindus.
As a result, Pakistan is in a similar situation to Afghanistan. Many different ethnicities, languages and cultures linked together only by loose collection of fanatical through to cultural Muslims. Pakistan is an artificial entity, and it could never have worked.

Too true. Other examples how artificial states break up are aplenty around our recent century. Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, URSS, Austria-Hungary, etc. One country I'm surprised hasn't collapsed in Indonesia. It has such a different historical background and geological separation that it is impressive they keep united. Belgium is on its way as well.

[Subotan]

Too true. Other examples how artificial states break up are aplenty around our recent century. Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, URSS, Austria-Hungary, etc.

You could probably add various states in Africa and Iraq as well.

One country I'm surprised hasn't collapsed in Indonesia. It has such a different historical background and geological separation that it is impressive they keep united. .

Yes, they've been surprisingly successful in creating a national identity, probably because they have one lingua franca.

Belgium is on its way as well.

It doesn't bode well for Belgium, or Europe as a whole. Were it not for Brussels, it would have broken apart decades ago.

[Furunculus]

As a carry on from my last post should we not try to keep Pakistan together and let it become a failed state... just as Furunculus says and secure the nuke's...

Aren't we risking Pakistan becoming another Afghanistan then though... ?

how can we keep such a nation together against their will.

really the choice lies with pakistan, do they want to be air-striked* for the next 20 years as a result of a failed society that gives free-reign to a militant islamist ideology that likes to use broken countries as the launchpad for its global jihad?

the choice is theirs.






* and i mean really air-striked, not just a few predators blowing up the odd mud-hut in deepest godforsakistan every blue-moon.

[rory_20_uk]

how can we keep such a nation together against their will.

really the choice lies with pakistan, do they want to be air-striked* for the next 20 years as a result of a failed society that gives free-reign to a militant islamist ideology that likes to use broken countries as the launchpad for its global jihad?

the choice is theirs.

* and i mean really air-striked, not just a few predators blowing up the odd mud-hut in deepest godforsakistan every blue-moon.

Pointless waste of resources. You got shares in the military hardware manufacturers? Bombing industrialised countries eventually works. If you're destroying a failed state what targets are you after? Collections of people? The cure is worse than the disease!

Leave 'em to it. Let it be India / Iran / China / Russia's problem - they're far closer than we are to it. Monitor with satellite and intelligence services but in the main leave them to themselves. The only reason to intervene would be to get out the Uranium. Once that threat has been taken care of, it's a worthless, rocky area.

[Papewaio]

Attacking the Indian Parliament or Hotels might have won the splinter groups some support.

Attacking cricket might mean that this terrorist faction will have bitten off more then they can chew. I think they will have turned many against them in the process. Cricket is the national sport in Pakistan, right up there with field hockey. You don't win friends by slagging their sport, and you most certainly don't get recruits by attacking their favourite sport.

[seireikhaan]

Attacking the Indian Parliament or Hotels might have won the splinter groups some support.

Attacking cricket might mean that this terrorist faction will have bitten off more then they can chew. I think they will have turned many against them in the process. Cricket is the national sport in Pakistan, right up there with field hockey. You don't win friends by slagging their sport, and you most certainly don't get recruits by attacking their favourite sport.

If militant Islam is defeated by Cricket...

[Papewaio]

No just this splinter group will lose popularity. Which is very important, because at the end of the day they are just another political group who want power. Look at Sein Fein and compare with the Real IRA.

[Scurvy]

Attacking cricket might mean that this terrorist faction will have bitten off more then they can chew. I think they will have turned many against them in the process. Cricket is the national sport in Pakistan, right up there with field hockey. You don't win friends by slagging their sport, and you most certainly don't get recruits by attacking their favourite sport.

Exactly, it's interesting that the Pakistani authrorities (and the cricket world in general) seemed to think it was just about the only completely safe thing in Pakistan - although i'm sure the terrorists calculated the possible gain/loss potential

[Furunculus]

Pointless waste of resources. You got shares in the military hardware manufacturers? Bombing industrialised countries eventually works. If you're destroying a failed state what targets are you after? Collections of people? The cure is worse than the disease!

Leave 'em to it. Let it be India / Iran / China / Russia's problem - they're far closer than we are to it. Monitor with satellite and intelligence services but in the main leave them to themselves. The only reason to intervene would be to get out the Uranium. Once that threat has been taken care of, it's a worthless, rocky area.

well, i'd rather not bomb parts pakistan either, but whether i support that move or not depends on whether they decide to export the head-hackers.

democracies have to take responsibility for their actions, and that means the actions of their 'people'. if they cannot maintain a stable civil society to the point where lawlessness grossly impinges on other nations, they lose the legitimacy of the nation state and deserve to be subsumed by their neighbours.

[rory_20_uk]

First off the country has failed. There is no structure, no democracy, nothing but collections of people.

If "head hackers" leave the area how is indiscriminate killing going to help? Aside from showing that you are far more intolerant of life than the head hackers - there is no plan to export these people - they either decide to leave or are helped by specific groups of people.

Democracies have to take responsibility for all their people? Utter tripe - unless you are advocating almost complete destruction of civil liberties. People break laws all the time in their own country. These are not usually failings of the state, but the individual - buying a knife is not illegal, but stabbing someone is.

I agree that in the case of a power vacuum at the borders it would be best if the surrouding countries absorbed those parts that were amenable to being absorbed, thus reducing the lawless area.

[Furunculus]

Democracies have to take responsibility for all their people? Utter tripe - unless you are advocating almost complete destruction of civil liberties. People break laws all the time in their own country. These are not usually failings of the state, but the individual - buying a knife is not illegal, but stabbing someone is.

a neighbouring country has every right to expect the home country to make all possible efforts to exterminate terrorist groups that launch attacks against the neighbour from the territory of the home country.

failure to do so is a cassus belli.

[Subotan]

India and Pakistan's loathing of each other is a huge part of the problem. If both just calmed down, or Pakistan said "Look, we really nead help, but if you don't help us, prepare for unforseen consequences", then I think it ould have a chance of being solved.

[rory_20_uk]

a neighbouring country has every right to expect the home country to make all possible efforts to exterminate terrorist groups that launch attacks against the neighbour from the territory of the home country.

failure to do so is a cassus belli.

A texan shoots across the border - Mexico has causus belli? Again, without a police state there will always be nutters who break the laws. They, as private citizens are responsible for their actions.

Terrorist groups? Semantics.
All possible efforts? Meaningless that can be fudged to suit the situation.