The Settlement [Concluded]

**GeneralHankerchief** · 03-19-2009, 18:36

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

That's not the standard cover role PM, but that doesn't mean it couldn't still be legitimate.

All this whining over the "pro-town network" which is comprised of the MURDERED and completely innocent Sasaki Kojiro, myself, a dead mason, and my partner, a mason, is ludicrous. I've shared information with no one else, and I've gotten info from half the town.

And you've just been shown ironclad proof that Reenk has distributed multiple cover roles of various power. How are you to know the legit roles from the fake ones when it comes time to vouch for people, hm?

I look forward to seeing the town go down in flames once again to prove my feelings on this matter correct.

**Jolt** · 03-19-2009, 18:37

Oh. Must have been along those pages I skipped when the Ares discussion went hot. Bleh.

**Sasaki Kojiro** · 03-19-2009, 18:38

Dropping the kills to one a night should help us immensely. So far we've knocked a serial killer and one of the usurpers. I'd say 2 more usurpers is a reasonable guess...with a few more anti town individuals probable. Plus factions within the town for added mayhem.

I don't consider anyone trustworthy, even someone who starts the game as a townie can end up mafia.

**Andres** · 03-19-2009, 18:39

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Complete trust? In a non-standard mafia game? Not gonna happen. Do we believe Sasaki is an innocent -- yes. Are we 100% certain -- no. We don't know ALL of his objectives. Andres' reveal could be 100% true (the cover looks right, as does the humor in it). But his objectives make it very clear that 100% innocence is not a guarantee. Reenk seems to like to lemonade -- there's always a bit of bite to go along with the sweet.

The reveal is true. My offer is still valid. Lynch a potential useful ally or lynch Yoyoma, blocked when there were 2 kills, not blocked when there were 3.

Your choice.

**Andres** · 03-19-2009, 18:40

Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Dropping the kills to one a night should help us immensely. So far we've knocked a serial killer and one of the usurpers. I'd say 2 more usurpers is a reasonable guess...with a few more anti town individuals probable. Plus factions within the town for added mayhem.

I don't consider anyone trustworthy, even someone who starts the game as a townie can end up mafia.

What evidence do you have that townies could be recruited?

**Askthepizzaguy** · 03-19-2009, 18:40

Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

And you've just been shown ironclad proof that Reenk has distributed multiple cover roles of various power. How are you to know the legit roles from the fake ones when it comes time to vouch for people, hm?

We don't. But we do know when someone has committed to a story, and can point out if their story ever changes. Getting caught in a LIE told to the masons is most likely what? Mafia behavior. And we can investigate EVERY single serious pro-town role claim.

You guys say I underestimate Sasaki, but I feel you underestimate me as well.

**LittleGrizzly** · 03-19-2009, 18:42

ATPG be careful of trusting a contact purely because he's in your pm, most likely he is innocent but in Midgaard TinCow was mentioned as a champion of one of the lords... but he was mafia...

If you have a big enough group and lots of info flying around most likely it will end up in mafia hnds sooner or later... the only problem is mafia don't share info (or thiers at least) so it becomes a one way street of town giving mafia info...

Im sorry but by declaring in the thread lets block yoyo and see how many kills there are you are basically inviting the mafia to adjust accordingly to make yoyo look guilty... the n1 role block on the other hand has something to it... nothing concrete though.... mafia change amount of kills for all kinds of reasons...

Sorry Andres... i appreciate you revealing second role so we now for sure bad guys will have cover pm's... good work...

Unfortunately you choose to kill the good men off, sure your willing to stop now

Ehm, that would still be a town victory, wouldn't it?

My objectives are : exterminate good men + outlive usurpers.

Town objective is outlive usurpers.

Both me and town would win.

Why should we risk yoyo, jolt or any of the others for your victory condition. I want the town to win with as many survivors as possible, anyone who kills anything but usurpers is an enemy of the town that has to got rid off...

even if it is only jerks they kill

Im not too worried about you slightly faking your pm.. if i was to guess i would say its real...

I was not going to keep killing until I got caught, I would have stopped once all good men were gone and then I would still have to work with town, since I also have to outlive the usurpers.

Thats half the town's voting power and a third of the settlers!!

If one of or more the remaining mafiosi in the late mid/end game is a good man, then my role can be critical for town victory.

This is your best argument but still it isn't enough to sway me... the fact is if we sure enough a good man is scum we can lynch him ourselves... i suppose we could get down to a late game situation whee your services could be useful... but theres a small chance you would be needed... the threat you pose to the jerks is bigger...

**GeneralHankerchief** · 03-19-2009, 18:44

ATPG, I've seen it happen enough times in the past to know that doing this is an exercise of futility.

The last game where I made this argument I got very worked up and accomplished little. So this time, I'll just provide you names of surely guilty people to lynch, as I did with Andres now. So you can trust either me, who has a proven record of giving you correct names in this game, or you can trust a system that has been proven to be a colossal failure.

**White_eyes:D** · 03-19-2009, 18:45

Listen.....I can't forge PM's like Reenk can or do fake reveals like he can.....but I can tell you if someone has changed something in a PM....and I am telling you guys....Andres PM, both of them real and fake, is 60% bull

(I mean I had you guys going nuts in Godfather 3

)

**Askthepizzaguy** · 03-19-2009, 18:46

By the way, no one has come forward claiming to be the "real" investigator. As soon as the investigator who revealed to me dies, he no longer needs to be shrouded in secrecy, and we can make public his information at our convenience and at his request. Or it can remain a mystery. I'd absolutely love it if the people who have been timid about revealing to me do so now, especially if you don't have a role worth mentioning.

As for my partner possibly being mafia, if he doesn't reveal soon, I'll expose him and call for his head via a duel challenge, whoever feels confident challenging him. That should extinguish the possibility that he's anti-town, and if he is, he will be dead. I do believe I have covered the bases.

And if the investigator would like to investigate my partner, I will reveal him to you.

**Seamus Fermanagh** · 03-19-2009, 18:46

The townie network now having grown to a point where infiltration is more and more likely, it is time to bring things into the open and have the whole town review and use the material. This first post will include my role reveal. A second post will include the PMs between my fellow herdsman.

Originally Posted by Reenk Roink

Hello Seamus Fermanagh, thanks for playing

Damn it Shakespeare, how'd you get out of the pen? You poop in that pool and you're gonna end up lunch meat!

You to your sheep

You are a Shepherd

Background:

Your line of work was never easy, or glamorous, or well playing, but it was very rewarding. Until the Tax Collector began to show that is. The man literally took everything from you, your sheep, your land, your children, and to top it off he demanded conjugal relations with your wife to pay off your debt.

When this point was reached, you had had enough. The Tax Collector was eventually dismissed from his post on account of the cost of the army that needed to be sent to accompany him when he visited the countryside, and so he went off to a new settlement to continue his evil work.

You are following him to bring justice and make sure he never oppresses others like he has oppressed you. You are accompanied by a fellow shepherd who has a similar history.

Battle Rating:

2 – Raising sheep means having to keep them in line, and while you haven't exactly had any type of formal military training, your background has made you scrappy if nothing else.

Note: In the case of a duel against the Tax Collector, both of you can fight together thus adding to your chances of victory (your battle ratings will be added). This double team situation will only occur in a fight against The Tax Collector.

Victory Conditions:

Outlast The Tax Collector
Outlast the usurpers (settler victory)

I have been fortunate enough to fulfill the first condition (nothing personal Beefy), and now am bringing out information to further the second.

As you can see, Reenk is adept at mixing things up. Beefy must die for my full victory -- but my victory is a result of the town. THAT is why I haven't dismissed the veracity of Andres' claim (though I am still voting for him). It's a magnified version of my own.

EDIT:

Heres the follow on message:

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Originally Posted by Reenk Roink

Hello Askthepizzaguy and Seamus Fermanagh, you are the two shepherds working together.

**GeneralHankerchief** · 03-19-2009, 18:48

Revealing in public means nothing, as any potential mafiosi can just dish out cover roles.

**Askthepizzaguy** · 03-19-2009, 18:49

He can be investigated if you don't believe him, GH.

And Seamus is, and always was, my mason partner, until the investigator proves otherwise.

In a PM to Sasaki.

I admit, I cannot 100% trust anyone's reveal. But I can say that the investigator was never counter-claimed, and if he did, we would have nailed at least one mafia; next, the investigator will be revealed now, thereby killing him (mafia won't allow him to survive), so that eliminates him as untrustworthy, and furthermore, everyone's claims or fake roles etc can be revealed now, so we can determine who lied to us and who did not.

Seamus is taking care of business now. GH won't listen to me, which is his prerogative. But I know I did darn good work this game, because whether I got correct information or not, the traitors are now exposed, or, we have correct information.

Either scenario is welcome.

**Andres** · 03-19-2009, 18:51

Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Revealing in public means nothing, as any potential mafiosi can just dish out cover roles.

Revealing in private doesn't mean anything either.

**White_eyes:D** · 03-19-2009, 18:53

Originally Posted by LG

Im sorry but by declaring in the thread lets block yoyo and see how many kills there are you are basically inviting the mafia to adjust accordingly to make yoyo look guilty... the n1 role block on the other hand has something to it... nothing concrete though.... mafia change amount of kills for all kinds of reasons...

but we are going to lynch FactionHeir tomorrow....so why not?

that could be all the Usurpers right there.....

Edit: if we do what GH did in SOE (Randomly block)....then we have no idea who is Mafia/SK in the long run

**Andres** · 03-19-2009, 18:53

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

He can be investigated if you don't believe him, GH.

And Seamus is, and always was, my mason partner, until the investigator proves otherwise.

And how would you be sure about the credibility of your investigator, hm? Because he sent you his role pm? Which one, the real or the cover up?

At least my reveal was sincere. Yes, I'm a killer, but I'm not obliged to kill and I'm in the towns' hands now. I'm neutralised and I have an ability that can be put to good use. And I offer an alliance and most of you know that I never backstab my allies.

Vanilla townies victory condition is 'outlive the usurpers', so the game will end when the usurpers are done for.

**GeneralHankerchief** · 03-19-2009, 18:53

Exactly.

Anyway, the investigator might be following his own path - after all, he is not beholden to the town's whims. He might also be dead.

Whenever you guys want some real results, just say the word. Remember, salvation lies within (the General).

**seireikhaan** · 03-19-2009, 18:53

With GH, I absolutely agree
Too often, town groups give info for free
In the group, the scum lurk
While wearing a smirk
And embark on an easy killing spree.

**White_eyes:D** · 03-19-2009, 18:57

Originally Posted by seireikhaan

With GH, I absolutely agree
Too often, town groups give info for free
In the group, the scum lurk
While wearing a smirk
And embark on an easy killing spree.

Wise words, Khaan.....Wise words

Edit: I don't trust Pro-town networks, since Family guy Mafia.

Edit2: and if I recall....in Godfather 3....Beefy got a LOT of info off pizza guy and taka

**Askthepizzaguy** · 03-19-2009, 19:04

Originally Posted by White_eyes:D

Edit2: and if I recall....in Godfather 3....Beefy got a LOT of info off pizza guy and taka

I gave beefy zero information. There was no information to give. It was a basic game. No one had a role besides the mafia, ares, and seireikhaan, and I was not privy to that information.

What info are you referring to? Conference in private please, this is offtopic.

**White_eyes:D** · 03-19-2009, 19:17

It's still on topic....don't worry.

Beefy passed Skynet.....then he gave us a list of targets that passed Skynet with flying colours...and we killed them....mostly because....in Private and in Public you GAVE him everyone who you could trust...and we killed them so you would only be able to trust Beefy....it was a double-edged sword though...Sasaki pinned us in the end by that

Pro-townie networks need to break apart a little more.....misinformation to other Pro-townies would help weed out the baddies....but I still wouldn't bank on it....

And don't trust Sasaki.....

he might not be Mafia....but if he is....you can be damn sure that he well get all he needs from you.

**Sigurd** · 03-19-2009, 19:18

had to edit this, thus making the vote uncountable.
repost...
|
V

**Askthepizzaguy** · 03-19-2009, 19:18

SkyNet is my opinion and it's also flawed, even if it's not totally inaccurate. It's not actual information. And yes, this is off-topic, so I'm going to refrain from further comment, much to the relief of everyone here.

**Seamus Fermanagh** · 03-19-2009, 19:20

PMs from the "network" process.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

Originally Posted by Reenk Roink

Hello Askthepizzaguy and Seamus Fermanagh, you are the two shepherds working together.

Well, that sort of makes us masons. I've never been a mason before, but being able to work with someone is a pleasant change. Do you have any experience being a mason? Any ideas for a strategy? I'll be poring over the old mafia games looking for instances of mason players and seeing what worked and what didn't, as well as attempting to conjure up my own take on it.

My present theory is that there are usurpers both in the Good Men and in the Men groups, because it would seem rather simplistic to have the usurpers grouped all together on one side. Therefore I would suggest (even if I am wrong) that it behooves us to make friends on both sides of the aisle, and consider everyone suspect too. Because there are two of us... there is an opportunity here for much mischief. I never survive all the way through a game, and because I intend to be talking less, and given that people always suspect me and mafia hate me, I can plainly suggest I will be dead in short order. I will do what I can to survive as long as possible, and cover for you, in the least obvious ways, but eventually you could be on your own. I could end up claiming a role before I die, to possibly spare me the lynch for a round or two, using my patented "benefit of the doubt" system; unless the mafia kills me right away, in which case, I will laugh in their face and become my usual evil undead Zombie self by whipping out SkyNet and hammering them with the Spanish Inquisition until they squeal.

We're both good analysts, so lets both quietly analyze and share our data and so on and so forth. we have an opportunity to do some real damage to the usurpers together. I can do my usual psychoanalysis/posting strategy/voting strategy analysis, and you can do your usual strengths, which is looking for irregularities in posting length and frequency, etc (holmes-lite).

If you prefer less frequent contact, let me know, but I warn you that when I am partners with someone I tend to be chatty, even for me. I'd also prefer to do the chatting not on this website via private message, because all that PM traffic will be detected and I can't explain it away. I don't trust quicktopic, it gets broken into far too often.

Perhaps we could fire emails back and forth, I consider it the most secure method. Let me know what you think.

my reply:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

next pizza:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Pizza:

AFAICR, there have only be one or two games with masons in them. Their classic weakness is the same shared by the mafia -- you may know you're guy is innocent, but if you defend him too vociferously....

Still, sharing of thoughts and records will be worthwhile here. I think, for us, the basics of mafia hunting will not change save for that sharing -- which is cool because both of us have toget killed for any info generated to be "lost."

As to our special task, we are clearly meant to gang up on the TC. What "tells" do you think we should be looking for?

I'm guessing, since he needed an army with him, we're looking at a 1-4 fight value (giving even one of us a chance to take him down) but I'd say a 3 seems most likely since we're supposed to team him (I'm a 2 and I assume you are as well). So there will be advantage to both staying alive to join in.

What is the TC's individual goal? If we can deduce that, we'll be positioned to wanax him proper.

That's a good start. I hadn't been thinking too deeply about the tax collector's motives yet, because I do not know for certain what his motives are besides possibly outlasting us. I was thinking about possibly roleplaying as a priest or something. That should get people completely off the idea that I am a shepherd or a mason. I don't have to roleplay it too heavily, and I can just joke around and behave like myself, just nothing like a mason. But I would have to be sure that there isn't some priest somewhere else who will catch wind of my ruse and accuse me.

I intend to get some sleep before I do my heavy thinking though. My brain is fried from being up since morning yesterday doing this stuff, and pulling a true, hardcore inquisition in the Medieval Mafia down at Total War Center.

if email is ok with you, mine is askthepizzaguy@yahoo.com. I don't need to be caught doing private messaging over and over every day.

Another couple of slices of pizza, since I am checking periodically around work but he's more constant.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

I responded when I got back on:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

If you can forgive me for this absolute disaster, I am attempting to collect information for you.

TheFlax revealed himself as a Scribe with a duel rating of 1, and the ability to vote twice, as he is a Good Man. Now we have influence over 4 votes, for now.

That should keep us both alive for the lynch, and him as well. I think we can trust him because: He's not cruel, especially to me, and he revealed after a long, drawn out conversation about how upset I was about this game, and that the ONLY reason I am continuing to play is out of a misplaced sense of duty to the town and to my partner. If he lied to me at that point, after feeling pity on me, it wouldn't be TheFlax. He's capable of lying, but he's not mean. I doubt he would kick me when he is down. And he did say that he would vote however we want him to.

If there is anything else I can do, say the word. I am right now too upset to bother with an analysis of the game for a while.

The blunderous duel challenge and the role expose was disappointing enough, but to then be accused of faking it all, and the following:

Originally Posted by boudica

Notice how he hides the truth with the jibber of the common man. I have bolded to stress it. This is why you get lynched old bean - people know you will come back from the dead to help the cause even if you aren't trying to pull the wool of some poor goat over our eyes.

I am really, really disappointed in town right now. I am trying to shrug all this off and continue, but there is like acid at the pit of my stomach bubbling up every time I look at the thread, and further accusations of WIFOM against me.

I'm taking a break to wash this failure off and accept my inevitable death. Will attempt to persuade as many people as possible to reveal to me, and I will pass that info on to you.

Hmmm. I think we must, at least tentatively, extend TheFlax credit as a good guy. It'd be nice to influence several votes at once if we can get a valid target for a lynch.

Don't take the "faking it" line of jargon as anything but a compliment -- they believe you have it in you to pull that level of subterfuge, and that is actually high praise (however vexing in the moment).

Boudica is a cavalier poster -- she enjoys jibes and banter. I wouldn't personalize it too much. She is correct that your style of play lends itself to worrying less about lynching you, since they believe it won't stop you from playing. While problematic now, Sasaki went through the same thing and came out fine in the end. I still have the same problem to some extent as well. It will pass.

Yes, given your reveal you should maximize the "go ahead and reveal to me" line -- but remember that some reveals may be more real than others. I'll gladly review exchanges you're unsure of to give a second opinion. If it gets you dead, so be it. Once revealed it is an unavoidable risk. Staying active and involved will minimize it, though, as the mafiosi will hope that your staying alive will lead to reavealing your partner or getting you lynched and invalidating anything you've said to that point.

Please continue to not name me for the present. I will save these PM's for revelation pre-death at need.

Pizza's research continued:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

I reply:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Pizza zaps back 2 minutes later:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

I, snowed under with reading yet to do reply:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Pizza's next:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

I reply:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Pizza next:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

My reply and sign-off at the end of the 13th.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

I'll keep the conversation going to share the info -- nothing like transparency eh?

Pizza:

If you would be so kind as to publish a summary of the "network" results, roles, etc. I'll add the PMs as raw data. Gotta go pee and then get a coffee.

**Sasaki Kojiro** · 03-19-2009, 19:21

Originally Posted by White_eyes:D

And don't trust Sasaki.....

he might not be Mafia....but if he is....you can be damn sure that he well get all he needs from you.

I don't really deserve this reputation

**Sigurd** · 03-19-2009, 19:22

vote: Yoyoma

All though Andres could be fooling us and make another character in the night results, I am going to give him my support. At least we share the view about the good men.

tally:
Andres: 10 (boudica, Capt.B, CountA, Jolt, LG, Seamus, khaan, taka, TinCow, Yoyoma)

Yoyoma: 3 (Andres, Sigurd, Tristan)
Sigurd: 1 (WE:D)

Abstain: 1 (Psychonaut)
Not voting: 3 (FactionHeir, Ichigo, Lord W)

**White_eyes:D** · 03-19-2009, 19:23

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

SkyNet is my opinion and it's also flawed, even if it's not totally inaccurate. It's not actual information. And yes, this is off-topic, so I'm going to refrain from further comment, much to the relief of everyone here.

Well....Skynet is not useless....iAndres was also nailed with it....and because of that we can assume GH is telling the truth about FH as well....I mean....hardly anyone is going to vote someone, just because a dead player says so...

**Askthepizzaguy** · 03-19-2009, 19:25

@Seamus

I'll try, but it will take some time. I need to take a break, because I'm letting the game frustrate me again when it shouldn't do that.

*centers himself*

Mmmm..... just a game.... just a game.... just a game.... it's not much of a game if there aren't challenges to overcome. Mind over matter. Cogito ergo sum. Logic is the essence of function. I am in control... I am in control.... Soylent Green is people.

And Sasaki is cunning, and will betray you sometimes, but dang it, this is a game where you're supposed to do that occasionally. He does it more blatantly and without a friendly smiley face, but we all do it, so leave him alone.

**White_eyes:D** · 03-19-2009, 19:31

Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

I don't really deserve this reputation

It's a compliment

Reenk=Ballsy Mafia or Pro-town, who can forge PM's and throw his buddies under the bus, faster then said bus

Sasaki=Sixth Mafia sense of some sort, that most people do not have or know much about.....

**Askthepizzaguy** · 03-19-2009, 19:48

Give Seamus and I a minute, there's a lot of stuff that needs to be posted, and I recommended that identities be kept hidden, so we need to sweep away the names from the role PM's and that takes time.

Anyone who didn't claim a vital role can be named, I think.

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