Stalinist and Nazi sympathizers

[Vuk]

I recently found myself getting extremely offended by the large amount of Stalin worshippers posting in a Frontroom thread. It offended me because men are known and judged by either their actions, their circustance, or their looks. (In Stalins case it certainly could not be the last two) When someone praises someone like Stalin, they praise his actions: The liquidation and torture of millions of people in small amount of time, the deprivation of basic human rate of hundreds of millions over the years, the abject disregard for human worth and exploitation of Eastern Europe. Praising such deeds (either directly or indirectly) is extremely offensive to anyone who DOES value life, and all the more so to someone who may have lost a relative to said butchery. I made the analogy to praising Hitler in the Frontroom thread. How do you think a second generation Slav, Jew, or any other victim of Hitler's tyrrany on this forum would feel about someone praising Hitler? Esp if a relative of theirs was killed by Nazis?
I know people have the freedom of speech, and I am a complete supporter of said freedom. There are things though that most people agree should not be tangled into everyday discussion, and we have a Backroom for them. Politics are among them. I think that the praising of butchers should be classified as Backroom material, and not allowed in the Frontroom. I am not talking about Ancient butchers of course, but the attrocities of recent dicators such as Stalin and Hitler are still very near to most peoples' hearts and is quite a sensitive issue.

Vuk

[SwordsMaster]

So many of my potential relatives were butchered by Gengis Khan. We should stop discussing Gengis Khan outside of the Backroom?

[Vuk]

So many of my potential relatives were butchered by Gengis Khan. We should stop discussing Gengis Khan outside of the Backroom?

3 important points (one of which is already in my first post):
1st of all, there are still people surviving today who were victims of the regimes of Hitler and Stalin, and the attrocities commited by both are still very near and dear to most people.
2nd, there are still people today who would like to return to such terrors (neo Nazis, neocommunists, etc), which makes it a real danger to humanity in the present day. I doubt that we need worry about a mongol invasion wiping the world out.
3rd, related to the first two, because it is so near to people, and because there still are followers of both systems, it is politics as well as history, and politics are a backroom thing.

Also I would like to point out that the poster who offended me most admitted that Stalin did those things, and STILL liked him for his accomplishments. There is a difference between someone who believes that Stalin was villified in history *rolls eyes* and does not believe that he really did that, and someone who worships him for what he admits he did. Even so, it is politics and does not belong outside of the backroom. I personally think that Milosevic was framed and was not guilty of warcrimes, but I do not a) worship him b) talk about him outside the backroom.

Stalin's and Hitler's regimes were a rape on human kind and not something that people should praise outside the backroom (or at all in my opinion, but I believe in free speech). Surely you can see how that would offend people?

[pevergreen]

Easy solution. Put Glenn on your ignore list. I've had him there since he signed up and the .org is a better place for me.

[Vuk]

Easy solution. Put Glenn on your ignore list. I've had him there since he signed up and the .org is a better place for me.

True, but I should not have to put everyone who offends me on my ignore list. I think the better solution would be simply for members not to say offensive things. When you put someone on your ignore list you lose everything they say, not just the offensive bits. Do you know what I mean? Also, whether I am seeing it or not, I do not like the idea of knowing that people like Hitler or Stalin and are being openly praised in the Frontroom. If it offended me, I am sure that it offended a lot of other people as well.

[Askthepizzaguy]

In truth, you must know Vuk that I personally despise Stalin and Hitler, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, Mugabe, and any number of trumped up dictator bullies who caused mass death, and it offends me to see anyone giving them a pass. I personally find it revolting and sickening beyond belief.

However, when praises for these evil men are sung, the people singing those praises can be scrutinized. I want the KKK and NAMBLA and all those other people who believe that sick twisted stuff to come forward and identify themselves, so I can ignore them, and so I can figure out who they are and stay far away from them, and at the same time, publicly decry their behavior and shun them.

I do suggest the easiest solution in cases like this is to ignore said person. If what they said was that offensive (and as an American, I was very much personally offended) then perhaps this is a person you don't want to speak to. And if they wanted their voice heard, they should not post things which they know would offend most English-speaking people on here. I don't go to a Japanese website and start decrying all the Japanese evils of World War II, because its in the past, and its rude to keep hounding a people who aren't responsible for that. As such, people who hate the United States or England or Australia or whatever may not want to post here, and if they do, they should expect to be ignored for their one-sided attack.

Anywho; I wanted you to know I agree with your sentiment, but I am not enough of a fan of censorship to call for anything but a personal ignore in that case.

If it were just a little bit more malicious, I'd agree with you. Personally, I think it is ignorant to hold such powerfully hateful feelings towards nations which have stood up for human rights and freedoms for centuries, but people are unfortunately allowed to be ignorant.



So, in short, I support what you're saying and how you feel, but I don't believe action should be taken unless the off-topic continues, or if the person in question posted another post which was an offense against entire countries or races.

The Frontroom isn't for politics anyway, and if the moderator sees it, he may in fact have the right to delete said content. I'm borderline on that, but fortunately, it's not my call.

[caravel]

True, but I should not have to put everyone who offends me on my ignore list. I think the better solution would be simply for members not to say offensive things. When you put someone on your ignore list you lose everything they say, not just the offensive bits. Do you know what I mean?

Exactly right. The ignore list is there if needed, but here at the .org you should never need to use it IMHO. If someone's posts were to annoy me that much then I would think that it was myself that had the issues and not the poster in question. At the most I'd simply stop reading their posts.

Ignoring members may seem a good idea to you, but members that make posts that you don't like or don't agree with in one part of the forum often make quality posts in other parts. I can think of quite a few members that fit this category. By ignoring them you're doing yourself a disservice. Any posts that break the rules will be dealt with, so what is there to avoid?

[PershsNhpios]

I recently found myself offended by the amount of Capitalist American sympathizers in my country, Australia.
It offended me because the general attitude of the American regimes since Dwight Eisenhower have been sadistically hypocritical.
And when someone who has been hypnotized by western media praises America; they praise it's actions;
the murder of millions of civilians;
the devastation of several democracies;
the subjugation of almost the entire western world by use of the United Nations;
the rapine of Third World countries;
the charade and scam of free trade and global markets;
the sale of arms to nations violating terms of conflict which were written by American officials;
the exploitation of every available Eastern country for cheap-labour;
the constant war-mongering and staging of precipitated warfare through the Near East;
the betrayal of former allies such as Saddam Hussein's Iraq;
the fixing of foreign political 'democratic' elections in countries such as Australia;
the increasingly tight control of the global "free-speaking" media network and the puppeteering of journalism;
and countless further horrors, including those we have yet to discover.

Praising these actions is a direct insult to WORLD PEACE, FREEDOM AND ALL THAT OTHER GARBAGE THEY LIKE TO RABBLE ON ABOUT.

How do you think people from the following countries would feel if YOU praised AMERICA?

East Timor
Cuba
Iraq
Iran
Palestine
India
Burma
Bosnia
Sudan
Somalia
Kuwait
Vietnam
Haiti
The South American Continent.

Especially if their ENTIRE FAMILY was destroyed by a carpet bombing?

I know people like to think they have Free Speech, the Land of the Free, and they like to waffle on about their glorious Freedom Fighters, out there fighting against Freedom.

But for god's sake - should they really be allowed to bring their nonsensical delusions into the Frontroom?



Whose truth is more recent, horrifying and unacceptable - the U.S.S.R's? Great Germany's? America's?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Exactly right. The ignore list is there if needed, but here at the .org you should never need to use it IMHO. If someone's posts were to annoy me that much then I would think that it was myself that had the issues and not the poster in question. At the most I'd simply stop reading their posts.

Ignoring members may seem a good idea to you, but members that make posts that you don't like or don't agree with in one part of the forum often make quality posts in other parts. I can think of quite a few members that fit this category. By ignoring them you're doing yourself a disservice. Any posts that break the rules will be dealt with, so what is there to avoid?

Interesting argument. I don't think I have a rebuttal for that.

[Vuk]

Exactly right. The ignore list is there if needed, but here at the .org you should never need to use it IMHO. If someone's posts were to annoy me that much then I would think that it was myself that had the issues and not the poster in question. At the most I'd simply stop reading their posts.

Ignoring members may seem a good idea to you, but members that make posts that you don't like or don't agree with in one part of the forum often make quality posts in other parts. I can think of quite a few members that fit this category. By ignoring them you're doing yourself a disservice. Any posts that break the rules will be dealt with, so what is there to avoid?

I have the issues? Cause I do not want NeoNazis and NeoCommunists glorifying some of the most horrific acts of human cruelty in the history of the world? Then yeah, I guess I have issues. I am sorry Asai, but when you understand the extent of the suffering that such things caused, it is hard not be offended by people who glorify it. I have not ignored Glenn, and do not intend to. I only ask that offensive political material be kept to the backroom.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I have the issues? Cause I do not want NeoNazis and NeoCommunists glorifying some of the most horrific acts of human cruelty in the history of the world? Then yeah, I guess I have issues. I am sorry Asai, but when you understand the extent of the suffering that such things caused, it is hard not be offended by people who glorify it. I have not ignored Glenn, and do not intend to. I only ask that offensive political material be kept to the backroom.

That I would agree with too...

Seems that the issue in question has been resolved, Vuk:

Note the "-" under certain member's name. IIRC, this indicates the problem has gone away. As such, the day has gotten brighter.

[caravel]

I have the issues?

It wasn't directed at you Vuk, sorry if I wasn't clear.

Cause I do not want NeoNazis and NeoCommunists glorifying some of the most horrific acts of human cruelty in the history of the world? Then yeah, I guess I have issues. I am sorry Asai, but when you understand the extent of the suffering that such things caused, it is hard not be offended by people who glorify it. I have not ignored Glenn, and do not intend to. I only ask that offensive political material be kept to the backroom.

I doubt many understand the extent of the suffering except those that lived through it. But anyway my main point was that offensive posts will be dealt with - which is why we have moderators. Also such content should not be outside the backroom - this will also be dealt with.

Country bashing is not acceptable on this forum - it always leads to flamewars and benefits no one. If you cannot make your point without country bashing then log out, cool down for half an hour and come back. Still feel that you can't make your point without country bashing? Forget it, head to another part of the forum and post something constructive.

[Vuk]

I beg leave to respond to Glenn's post, first in general, and then point by point.
First of all, in general:
1) It is proven fact that both Hitler and Stalins' regimes were responsible for outrageous crimes against humanity, and when I mentioned them, your responce was "Yeah, but...". You acknowledge them and love the Soviet Union for/inspite of them. It is NOT proven fact, or even a widely held opinion in most of the world that the United States is responsible for what you said. My point being that no American is praising the United States for crimes against humanity that they supposedly committed, in fact, they praise the United States for the exact opposite. Meanwhile you are admitting to the horrors of the USSR and praising it! (which is praising those horrors) That is the main difference, no Americans who I have seen are praising crimes against humanity, but you were.
2) Americans are not going around making comments like "I would never want to vote for a Russian, never mind be one" like YOU WERE about Americans. Surely you can see how such a comment would greatly offend and insult an American.
Now let me take your post down point at a time.

I recently found myself offended by the amount of Capitalist American sympathizers in my country, Australia.
It offended me because the general attitude of the American regimes since Dwight Eisenhower have been sadistically hypocritical.
Let us see some backing for this.
And when someone who has been hypnotized by western media praises America; they praise it's actions;
Who is hypnotized by propoganda here?
the murder of millions of civilians;
Where and when? In all the conflicts that you hinted to after WWII put together, it would be impossible for millions of civilians to have died. This is a BS statement.
the devastation of several democracies;
Which?
the subjugation of almost the entire western world by use of the United Nations;
That Russia had veto power in? First of all, I am completely AGAINST the United Nations, just wanted to make that clear. Second of all, who was forced into the United Nations? Third of all, the US has been bullied by the UN as much as any country.
the rapine of Third World countries;
Such as?
the charade and scam of free trade and global markets;
The government controlled system in communist and socialist countries is somehow better, right? Look at the standard of living of the average person and in each system and tell me that capitalist way is not better.
the sale of arms to nations violating terms of conflict which were written by American officials;
Please explain this...
the exploitation of every available Eastern country for cheap-labour;
The outsourcing of jobs is hurting Americans and HELPING eastern workings. The jobs being outsourced to Eastern countries has only increased their standard of living, while taking opportunity from Americans. I do not agree with the outsourcing of jobs BTW, but it is hardly an American thing. If you want to talk about exploiting labour, you must look not farther than the Soviet Union. Do not be a hypocrite here, the Soviet Union enslaved millions of people.
the constant war-mongering and staging of precipitated warfare through the Near East;
Again, such a statement is useless if not backed up. Also, do not be a hypocrite, look at the expansion of the Soviet Union. Look at how many countries they subjogated and controlled. How many governments they destroyed so that they could gain power.
the betrayal of former allies such as Saddam Hussein's Iraq;
Saddam Hussein is a terrorist who did not keep his word, and was an ally because of a very unwise policy that the United States turned out to regret. When we find out that our allies are maniacal dictators harbouring terrorist, we tend not to view them favorably.
the fixing of foreign political 'democratic' elections in countries such as Australia;
lmao, that is a claim that I have not heard before. Do you have even the smallest shred of evidence to support such a wild claim?
the increasingly tight control of the global "free-speaking" media network and the puppeteering of journalism;
Like the Soviet Union, right? The had such free speaking and thinking? Maybe you should read up on your history and stop visiting communist websites. There was no such thing as free speech in the Soviet Union, Americans invented free speech.
and countless further horrors, including those we have yet to discover.
Where do you get your sources from? Pravda?

Praising these actions is a direct insult to WORLD PEACE, FREEDOM AND ALL THAT OTHER GARBAGE THEY LIKE TO RABBLE ON ABOUT.
So you admit that you think the concepts of world peace and freedom are garbage.

How do you think people from the following countries would feel if YOU praised AMERICA?

East Timor
Cuba
Iraq
Iran
Palestine
India
Burma
Bosnia
Sudan
Somalia
Kuwait
Vietnam
Haiti
The South American Continent.

Cuba? They have been under one of the most oppressive communist regimes in modern history. There is complete censorship and the only way they have to learn anything is through government controlled media and school. They will think whatever their government tells them too.
Iraq? You mean like the Iraqis who have died fighting beside American troops to help liberate their country? Like the women and the children who line up in the streets to cheer the Americans on? That is what every soldier I know who has been there has told me. Of course there are people who dislike the US, but most of them support the US and believe in the ideals of freedom.
Bosnia? WTH reason do Bosnians have to dislike the US? Serbs I can see, but Bosnians?
Vietnam? You mean the Vietnamese who have been bombarded by government propaganda since they were born? The only gripe South Vietnamese can have with us is that we caved in to liberal hippie BS and did not finish our job and garuntee them protection. Again though, it was the left train of thought that prevailed there, not the rightwing train of thought.
SouthAmerica? What crimes against humanity did the US commit in South America?

Especially if their ENTIRE FAMILY was destroyed by a carpet bombing?

I know people like to think they have Free Speech, the Land of the Free, and they like to waffle on about their glorious Freedom Fighters, out there fighting against Freedom.

But for god's sake - should they really be allowed to bring their nonsensical delusions into the Frontroom?



Whose truth is more recent, horrifying and unacceptable - the U.S.S.R's? Great Germany's? America's?

In conclusion, there are things that the American government have done that people (including myself do not agree with), but that is why we have elections every four years.
No matter what you say the US has done, it cannot even come close comparing with attrocities commited against human kind by the Soviet Union. The millions of people liquidated, shot, tortured, and thrown into mass graves. The enslavement of 10's of millions and the complete cessation of all basic rights to over half of the world.
The USSR did not give anyone right, it did not give anyone freedom, it only brought misery and death.
The United States has given freedom and opportunitty to millions. I do not see how you can even compare the two.
Ask any South Korean (who have had the opportunitty to see both systems first hand) what they think of communism. Ask them why they are willing to fight to the death beside their American allies to avoid being under a communist regime. Ask any Hungarian what they think of the United States. I have been in Hungary for only a few months now, and nearly every American I meet lights up when they learn I am American, and wants to know everything they can about America and Americans. They always get around to bragging about they are no longer under the communist regime. Ask them, who have been under the communist regime until the 90s, and who most of can still remember what life was like. They hate communism, and have a deep respect for America and capitalism. They have experienced both, and know first hand. Life has improved so drastically for them since the regime change. There are still Hungarians alive who I have had the opportunitty to talk to, who participated in the 56 revolution. You should hear them tell you how horrible life in a Communist country was. You should see the videos in the House of Horror (a museum about communist rule) which shows bulldozers pushing thousands of shrivelled bodies into mass graves. Millions were killed and enslaved. Many thousands were worked to death. Stalin decided that he would make an example of the Hungarians.
How can you even compare that to the United States? How can you admire that? Worship the man who did it? Do you even give two shits about human life?

[Vuk]

I am sorry, I did not see that the problem had been dealth with. I probably should not have wasted my time responding to him. Thank you Asai.

[Jolt]

As much as I disagree and agree at the same time with somethings both of you said, if this is to proceed, I'd suggest either creating a, or moving this thread to the backroom. That's the proper place to build a shrine to Stalin, Eisenhower or the Great Octosquid.

[Andres]

Hi Vuk, it seems like the post that offended you already got taken care of by a moderator.

For future reference, if you encounter a post that violates Org rules or that is out of place (e.g. off topic spam or Backroom material outside the Backroom), use the report post button instead of the Watchtower.

Staff can't be here 24/7, but if the post is indeed "bad", then action will be taken against it (as you can see in the Frontroom thread you linked to).

[pevergreen]

Hes from Australia?

Gah.

[LittleGrizzly]

I don't know what exactly the post said that this argument originated from....

But in this thread at least.... Glenn has a point.... Not that the Soviet Union are great (thier terrible) but that people could be similarly offended by praising a country like USA for example.... who are of course far less worse than the soviet union but they have done plenty of bad things

[LittleGrizzly]

Lack of edit in the watchtower is annoying...

Just ignore the post above...i was going to edit it out... but if it really annoys you read my calrification below...

he had a point in that various groups of people could be personally offended by praise of almost any leader....

[Strike For The South]

Posts like that do not belong in the frontroom though. Granted if you want to say Americas bad we could also point out the fact that aussie has been eradicating and reeducating there natives for hundreds of years now.

Every country has blood on its hands.

But posting such things in the frontroom only ruins threads and hurts feelings

[Kralizec]

I didn't get to see the thread before Lemur started editing the posts, so I don't know if anyone praised Stalin. I only nominated him because it is a manly name...sort of.

I agree that Stalin is on par with Hitler, and that if mentioning one of them in the frontroom is allowed the same should go for the other...glorifying either should be done in the backroom.

[Pannonian]

Easy solution. Put Glenn on your ignore list. I've had him there since he signed up and the .org is a better place for me.

Wouldn't that have made Capo 2 a bit tricky, considering he was the most active poster in the early game?

[Askthepizzaguy]

You could temporarily turn off the ignore during a game like that. And as some have noted, if his behavior is that bad, reporting should take care of it.

Unfortunately when you simply don't like a behavior and the moderators deem it legal, the onus is on you to ignore them or suffer through it. But, you do have the ability to object out loud to their behavior and ask them nicely to stop.

After that, you could put in a complaint to the host of the game, in that case Seamus Fermanagh, who would try to resolve the dispute in the fairest way, and he'd possibly ask the offender in question to tone it down too, even if it were legal.

[Aemilius Paulus]

This is bull. Merely saying that you support Stalin should not get one in trouble.

I personally support authoritarianism, as I am a Russian, and authoritarianism is an excellent way to keep Putin as the dictator of Russia. I would not let other people attain such position, but Putin is an extraordinary person; he is a patriot comparable to Washington, Bolivar, Garibaldi, de Gaulle, Cincinnatus, and etc. He only does what he thinks is best for the country, and usually it is the best. In a democratic society this brilliant man would have been replaced by some average, corrupt drunk in 8 years, which would have annulled all that he has done for Russia. To sum it up, he might not be perfect, but he is best Russia has seen in a long, long time. There is no reason to believe that any other politician in the Duma is better than him.

Anyway, enough of the rant. Everyone has different views. I loathe Stalin because has done more to kill USSR than Hitler. During his purges, he slaughtered the best of my country and Soviet union as a whole. Not to mention he was a Georgian. Still, some people might like him. That is their choice. To censor racism and profanity is one thing; it is common decency; but to censor support for an unpopular party is totalitarianism.

All that "offensive" bemoaning puzzles me. How is it offensive? People are just whining. Offensive is when your feelings are hurt. You might be angry at Stalin/Hitler, but how are they offensive? Also, how can you exclude history from .Org? How do you regulate who can one support and who they cannot?

Final Note: despite hating Stalin, I still voted for him as the manliest person in that poll. Seriously, Hillary Clinton?? Manliness is usually synonymous with brutality, and paranoid butcher such as Stalin is a perfect candidate.

[TosaInu]

Hello Vuk,

You're right. Even traces of such things don't belong in the Frontroom. Same for any political stuff. I'll edit the poll.

[Aemilius Paulus]

But all that aside, Stalin did industrialise USSR. He was the one who built up its military and produced close to 30,000 tanks before WWII, many of which were vastly superior to the German tanks used in the beginning of the war. Stalin did lead USSR to victory. It is hard to understand whether someone else in his place would have done better. If not for his militancy, Russia may not have held out against Hitler. The Nazis got to outskirts of Moscow in the winter of 1941. After capturing it, they would have won half the war.

We all owe our lives to Stalin, technically. If USSR was defeated, the world would have crumbled against the Nazi hammer. Sure, it is possible that a rebellion would have taken place and some of the world freed itself from the Nazi dominion, but still, what if the Nazis finished their A-bomb research? Then they would have a deathgrip on the world. Whatever one argues, by defeating Russia, the Nazis could have done so much more, and possibly even have exterminated as much as 95% of all Jews. Just look at what happened to Polish and German Jewry. What would have stopped Hitler from doing the same to other countries?


Sure, Stalin was evil, but to compare him to Hitler is ignorance. Thankless ignorance.

[Kralizec]

Start a topic in the backroom (or monastery), and I'll reply Aemilius Paulus.

[Askthepizzaguy]

As would I, if I thought I had a chance of convincing you. However, I do think it would be a fruitless exercise. You have already made up your mind; as have I.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Hope you guys don't mind me saying this, but I think its time to terminate this thread. Regardless of how much you worship Stalin, Putin, Hitler, Churchill, Obama, Blair or whoever, the BackroomWT is not the place to say it. I think the original purpose of the thread has expired and those wishing to continue the authoritarianism vs. freedom debate should go to the Backroom.

Just my humble opinion on the thread's derailment.

[Vuk]

Hope you guys don't mind me saying this, but I think its time to terminate this thread. Regardless of how much you worship Stalin, Putin, Hitler, Churchill, Obama, Blair or whoever, the BackroomWT is not the place to say it. I think the original purpose of the thread has expired and those wishing to continue the authoritarianism vs. freedom debate should go to the Backroom.

Just my humble opinion on the thread's derailment.

Agreed, and thank you Tosa.
Aemilius Paulus, I would be glad to debate that with you and show you where you are in error, but I know that no matter what I do, I will not change your mind, so I will not. I will only say that you are very, very wrong.

Vuk