The Europa Barbarorum Quotes Project

[Celtic_Punk]

why?

[Foot]

why?

What does the writings of shakespeare have to do with hellenistic era of the ancient world? Hence we won't include quotes that are written within an alien context to our own mod's timeframe.

Foot

[Saldunz]

What does the writings of shakespeare have to do with hellenistic era of the ancient world? Hence we won't include quotes that are written within an alien context to our own mod's timeframe.

Foot

Is that just a general rule restricted to timeframe, or all other forms of context too? Because I could've sworn that the quotes file has something from Ovid's Amores which I find really bizarre to read right before a battle...

[oudysseos]

Actually, unless I am greatly mistaken, the only Ovid in the quotes is

{Author_15} Publius Ovidius Naso
{Quote_15} The gods favour the bold.

Which is itself a paraphrase of Ennius, I think.

But to answer your broader question, the time-frame is the primary criterion for including a quote, along with relevance to the area involved: there are no Chinese quotes, for example, not even ones from the 3rd century BCE. I bent the rules in 3 or 4 cases (the Irish triads and so on) because it is otherwise very difficult to give pre-literate people (or people whose literature had been totally lost) a voice. Since we're talking 4 quotes out of 300 I think that we are still pretty good. But although there may be some shades of grey, Shakespeare is without question well over the line. To be honest, I'd leave out the Vegetius as well, except that one can argue that he is mainly epitomizing earlier sources.

EDIT: Actually 'The Gods favour the bold' probably comes from Terence originally, by way of Vergil.

[Saldunz]

This is the one I was thinking of.

{Quote_65} Perfer et obdura; dolor hic tibi proderit olim - Be patient and tough; some day this pain will be useful to you.
{Author_65}Ovid

If I recall correctly, that line was about being rejected in love. Not that I remember Ovid perfectly.

EDIT: Actually, I just realised I don't have the absolute newest quotes file, but this was still in the second most recent release.

[Urg]

Here are some more, from Nepos (Hannibal) and from Livy. I tried to focus on quotes about non-Romans and non-Greeks. I stopped at Livy 23:14 so if anyone wants to continue on from there, feel free.


It is not to be disputed that Hannibal surpassed other commanders in ability as much as the Romans surpassed all other people in valour.

Non est infitiandum Hannibalem tanto praestitisse ceteros imperatores prudentia, quanto populus Romanus antecedat fortitudine cunctas nationes.

Cornelius Nepos, Hannibal, 1



All things are the property of the brave.

Omnia fortium uirorum.

Reply of the invading Senonian Gauls to the Roman ambassadors, c387 BC

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 5:36



These terms a victorious enemy dictates. These, though harsh and grievous, your condition commends to you.

Haec uictor hostis imperat; haec quamquam sunt grauia atque acerba, fortuna uestra uobis suadet.

Speech of Alorcus, on behalf of Hannibal, to the Saguntines.

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 21:13



“They are but the resemblances, nay, are rather the shadows of men; being worn out with hunger, cold, dirt, and filth, and bruised and enfeebled among stones and rocks.”

“Umbrae hominum, fame, frigore, inluuie, squalore enecti, contusi ac debilitati inter saxa rupesque”

P. Cornelius Scipio to his troops concerning Hannibal’s army after its crossing of the Alps, November 218 BC

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 21:40



Here, soldiers, where you have first met the enemy, you must conquer or die.

Hic uincendum aut moriendum, milites, est.

Hannibal, before the battle of the Ticinus, November 218 BC

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 21:43



The confidence and courage of the attacker are greater than those of the defender.

Quanto maior spes, maior est animus inferentis uim quam arcentis.

Hannibal

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 21:44



“Now will I offer this victim to the shades of my countrymen, miserably slain.”

“Iam ego hanc uictimam manibus peremptorum foede ciuium dabo".

Ducarius the Insubrian Gaul, before killing Flaminius at Lake Trasimene

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 22:6



“Let us die, soldiers, and by our deaths rescue the surrounded legions from ambuscade”

"Moriamur, milites, et morte nostra eripiamus ex obsidione circumuentas legiones"

M. Calpurnius Flamma, at Camarina, First Punic War, c258 BC

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 22:60

[oudysseos]

Urg- fantastic stuff.

Saldunz- I don't know what version you have but this is number 65 now:

{Author_65} Adherbal, The Jugurthine War, Ch. XIV
{Quote_65} Shall our family, then, never be at peace? Shall we always be harassed with war, bloodshed, and exile?

[Elmetiacos]

All things are the property of the brave.

Omnia fortium uirorum.

Reply of the invading Senonian Gauls to the Roman ambassadors, c387 BC

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 5:36

I read the original Latin just to make sure it was really there, but it didn't strike me before that it doesn't actually mean "all things are the property of the brave" or "To the brave belong all things": Omnia fortium uirorum (esse) is "all (be) to the strong men" literally. If you'll indulge me, this sounds quite poetic in reconstructed Gaulish: *Papon uirobo peprobo buet

[Urg]

I like it. But is it Senonian Gallic? Just kidding.

On the latin quote, I may be a bit rusty (its been about 10 years since I studied it). But isn't "fortium uirorum" genitive, not dative?

[Lovejoy]

"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching."


Apparently it comes from some Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BCE. I know its as far from EBs time frame as a ww2 quote, but its a cool quote! How much have we really change from the ancient times?

Anyway, I cant find a good source for the quote, so I dont even know if its real. Maybe someone here can help me out? Anyone recognize it?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I read the original Latin just to make sure it was really there, but it didn't strike me before that it doesn't actually mean "all things are the property of the brave" or "To the brave belong all things": Omnia fortium uirorum (esse) is "all (be) to the strong men" literally. If you'll indulge me, this sounds quite poetic in reconstructed Gaulish: *Papon uirobo peprobo buet

Bah.

It very literally and clearly does mean "all things are the property of the brave". Genitives in Latin have the nasty habit of indicating possession, even in Livy. This example follows that general rule and shows possession.

[Jolt]

why?

By then we could add the General Patton's quote I find most memorable, which has a nice ring to it.

"Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man.", which would be cute considering the timeframe the game is on. :D

[Azathoth]

"A woman is a creature that is always shopping. " - Ovid

Can someone get a source for this?

[Elmetiacos]

Bah.

It very literally and clearly does mean "all things are the property of the brave". Genitives in Latin have the nasty habit of indicating possession, even in Livy. This example follows that general rule and shows possession.

and esse is what form of the verb?

[Urg]

and esse is what form of the verb?

Esse is the present infinitive.

The complete sentence from Livy is very long, but to make sense of the latin here is a chunk of the sentence which puts the quote in its context:

"cum illi se in armis ius ferre et omnia fortium uirorum esse ferociter dicerent"

which translates as:

"...and on their fiercely replying, that they carried their right in their swords, that all things were the property of the brave..."

That translation is from the 1850s and is a bit dated. In my view a better modern translation would give the verb "esse" a present tense (ie. "all things are the property..."). Not only is this a better translation for modern english, but it also more accurately reflects the fact that esse is present (infinitive) tense.

The reason it is infinitive is quite simple. It follows the verb dicerent, ie. "They said that all things are the property of the brave..."

[Elmetiacos]

Esse is the present infinitive...

...The reason it is infinitive is quite simple. It follows the verb dicerent, ie. "They said that all things are the property of the brave..."

Latin isn't my strong point: am I wrong is associating this esse with Cato's Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam ('furthermore, I think Carthage must be destroyed') so that it has an imperative or subjunctive function ''all things should belong to the brave"?

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

"Furthermore, (I) think Carthage (must) be destroyed"

You are right.

[Urg]

Latin isn't my strong point: am I wrong is associating this esse with Cato's Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam ('furthermore, I think Carthage must be destroyed') so that it has an imperative or subjunctive function ''all things should belong to the brave"?

Mine's pretty rusty too.

The ordinary meaning of esse is "to be". In linguistic speak it is the "infinitive" (eg. to run, to bite, etc) of the verb sum ("I am"). In english the same verb has many forms even in its present tense (eg. I am, he is, they are).

In latin the verb esse also has a special role to play alongside other verbs. In the example you give the verb is delendam esse which is a conjugation of the verb deleo (I destroy), delere (to destroy).

The form delendam esse is what is called the "gerundive" (we do not have it in english) and implies a requirement to do, or not to do, something. Delendam esse literally means "it is required to be destroyed".

Esse is also used with latin verbs to form other tenses and forms.

Does that make sense?

So the answer to your question is: esse is the same word on each occasion, but it has a wholly different meaning in each case.

[option]

Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but I was just reading History of the Peloponnesian War when I came across this beautiful quote:

This day will be the beginning of great misfortune for the Hellenes. - Melesippus, the final Spartan herald to Athens, on being rebuffed by the Athenians, 431 BC

Thucydides (edited by Robert B. Strassler, trans. by Richard Crawley), History of the Peloponnesian War (as presented within Strassler's The Landmark Thucydides), Book Two, 2.12.3

[Teleklos Archelaou]

and esse is what form of the verb?

Nothing to do with passive periphrastics (though they can be in indirect speech too as Cato's comment was related), but subordinate to a verb of thinking/knowing/saying/etc. (here dicerent) the infinitive is indeed translated as a finite verb in indirect discourse. Thanks for trying to prove other people are wrong twice within three (or four) words in something you're admittedly unsure of though; that takes some balls.

[Urg]

Hey I didn't mind him asking a question about the quote I found. It gave me the chance to review my understanding of latin.

Latin is, admittedly, a bit confusing at times.

[Elmetiacos]

Ah well, in that case buet isn't the correct form in Gaulish, or probably isn't, because the consensus is that it's the 3rd person subjunctive of the verb meaning "to be". So it's literally "(that) all is of the brave/strong men"? *Papon uiron pepron biet - assuming *papon < Proto-Celtic *kwakwo- is neuter. Don't know why I assumed that, really.

[Alsatia]

Here's two from the bible,

"So be strong and courageous! Do not be afrais and panic before them for the lord your god will personally go ahead of you."
- The Bible (Deuteronomy 31:6)

"Just as death and destruction are never satisfied, so human desire is never satisfied."
- The Bible (Proverbs 27:20)

I cannot get a hebrew translation because I don't trust online translators and I don't have an extensive knowledge on hebrew.

(The verses are from the NLT[New Living Translation])

[Horatius]

I haven't read all the quotes yet so I may post something already stated

I noticed the thread asked for usually overlooked quotes so here is what I came up with.

I am putting these up from memory, so feel free to correct me I won't be offended.

"They make a desert and call it peace"-Calgachus

"Why should we share the penalty when we do not share the guilt? Why should we pay taxes when we have no part in the honours, the commands, the policy making?"-Hortensia

"Qui Bono (Who benefits)"-Cicero, trial of Sextus Roscius

"I can not stop for even as I do this I fear one day the order may be given for Rome"-Scipio Aemelianus

""Writing a poem you can read to no one is like dancing in
the dark."-Ovid

[scorion]

I haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know whether the following quote of Thucydides has been mentioned. (I didn't spot it in the first posts)
Although his history and the subject it deals with doesn't fall within the EB time frame I'd say it's still pretty much relevant due to the partly Hellenic setting. (and is still as it gives a good idea of the 'realist' point of view in international relations)

Athenians. For ourselves, we shall not trouble you with specious pretences--either of how we have a right to our empire because we overthrew the Mede, or are now attacking you because of wrong that you have done us--and make a long speech which would not be believed; and in return we hope that you, instead of thinking to influence us by saying that you did not join the Lacedaemonians, although their colonists, or that you have done us no wrong, will aim at what is feasible, holding in view the real sentiments of us both; since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.

History of the Peloponnesian War, b5 89 according to Richard Crawley.

I consulted Jowett's and Hobbs' translation as well, but due to the use of language I thought Richards Crawley's translation suited the setting the best.
Since I'm not schooled in ancient Greek I'm not sure how his translation holds up, but seeing what you've already gathered I'm confident you'll be able to make that assessment. (on that account Jowett's translation would probably be more authorative)
I could probably find the original Greek online, but I have reason to believe you will have better access to good sources in that respect.

Crawley's translation is available at wikisource:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Histor...ian_War/Book_5

Ah.. a search did show just now that you've included the quote in another thread, however. Still, it has not been a complete waste of time, since before this I had no idea Thomas Hobbs had translated Thucydides. ;)

[Horatius]

"By decree of the senate mourning is not to exceed thirty days"-Senatus Consultam following the battle of Cannae

[moonburn]

i read in a romance by coleen mcl something :\ on the book "1st man of rome" that ceaser was suposed to have told a young 19 year old vercingetorige "you may speak with passion and that will bring you suporters, but unleass you temper your passion with inteligence you will be able to provide your suporters with what they need/want" or something like that wich could be interesting

[machinor]

Please take the time and have a look at the first page. There is an example of the exact format the quotes should be posted in.

[IrishHitman]

What does the writings of shakespeare have to do with hellenistic era of the ancient world? Hence we won't include quotes that are written within an alien context to our own mod's timeframe.

Foot

Then why are Bible quotes being included?

The Bible was either written a long time before or almost century after EB's timeframe.
It is historically and culturally insignificant in this time period.

I'll start demanding Táin quotes pretty soon if I see Bible quotes...

[Foot]

Then why are Bible quotes being included?

The Bible was either written a long time before or almost century after EB's timeframe.
It is historically and culturally insignificant in this time period.

I'll start demanding Táin quotes pretty soon if I see Bible quotes...

And you obviously don't know your bible scholarship.

The Bible was written and rewritten throughout our timeframe, but most of the books of the old testament were written in their final form in about the 5th Century BC. I'm not sure about New Testament books, but the Gospels were written at most a couple of hundred years after. All were written in a world that was recognisable and part of the common heritage of people of that time. It is historically and culturally significant in our time period.

Shakespeare appears in a world that was some 1800 years after our start date. If you cannot see the difference in that, then I'm at a loss for words.

Foot