Discussion of Stalinism

[Aemilius Paulus]

Hello Backroom dwellers! I am AP, some of you may already know me. Anyway, following the suggestion of another Orgha, Kralizec, I am going to post the following for discussion.

As a brief introduction, I am largely political and fiscal conservative with mostly liberal social ideals (I am arguably still in transition, holding quite a bit of conservative ideals as of now). Religion is no longer my thing, being an atheist currently. However, I am a supporter of authoritarianism, despite being well aware that it holds many dangers. Throughout my life I have first been a strong liberal and Christian and then changed into a strong conservative and atheist (what an irony!) before becoming the more moderate that I am today.

Now, onto the main material. As some of you may know, the recent Frontroom "Manliest person" poll has been edited out. While it was mostly rightful edit, as the Frontroom is not for politics, the causes of the edit were rather unrighteous in my opinion. Certain person was "offended" by Stalin and his supporters.

Here are my two posts on this in the Watchtower thread, Stalinist and Nazi sympathizers:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This is bull. Merely saying that you support Stalin should not get one in trouble.

I personally support authoritarianism, as I am a Russian, and authoritarianism is an excellent way to keep Putin as the dictator of Russia. I would not let other people attain such position, but Putin is an extraordinary person; he is a patriot comparable to Washington, Bolivar, Garibaldi, de Gaulle, Cincinnatus, and etc. He only does what he thinks is best for the country, and usually it is the best. In a democratic society this brilliant man would have been replaced by some average, corrupt drunk in 8 years, which would have annulled all that he has done for Russia. To sum it up, he might not be perfect, but he is best Russia has seen in a long, long time. There is no reason to believe that any other politician in the Duma is better than him.

Anyway, enough of the rant. Everyone has different views. I loathe Stalin because has done more to kill USSR than Hitler. During his purges, he slaughtered the best of my country and Soviet union as a whole. Not to mention he was a Georgian. Still, some people might like him. That is their choice. To censor racism and profanity is one thing; it is common decency; but to censor support for an unpopular party is totalitarianism.

All that "offensive" bemoaning puzzles me. How is it offensive? People are just whining. Offensive is when your feelings are hurt. You might be angry at Stalin/Hitler, but how are they offensive? Also, how can you exclude history from .Org? How do you regulate who can one support and who they cannot?

Final Note: despite hating Stalin, I still voted for him as the manliest person in that poll. Seriously, Hillary Clinton?? Manliness is usually synonymous with brutality, and paranoid butcher such as Stalin is a perfect candidate.

[SPOIL]%5

[Aemilius Paulus]

I wonder what is going to happen to this once that thread was moved here but locked....

Nada. This new thread is a fresh start, and shall be the primary BR thread for this discussion. SF

[rvg]

Stalin was a tyrant. Having said that, there's nothing morally wrong with supporting him. No more than supporting Mugabe, Mussolini, Kim Jong Il, Chairman Mao or any other in the countless list of dictators whose reign the humanity had a misfortune of enduring.

[Aemilius Paulus]

The second one of my quotes did not show up in the first post. This was my second post in that watchtower, now Backroom thread:

But all that aside, Stalin did industrialise USSR. He was the one who built up its military and produced close to 30,000 tanks before WWII, many of which were vastly superior to the German tanks used in the beginning of the war. Stalin did lead USSR to victory. It is hard to understand whether someone else in his place would have done better. If not for his militancy, Russia may not have held out against Hitler. The Nazis got to outskirts of Moscow in the winter of 1941. After capturing it, they would have won half the war.

We all owe our lives to Stalin, technically. If USSR was defeated, the world would have crumbled against the Nazi hammer. Sure, it is possible that a rebellion would have taken place and some of the world freed itself from the Nazi dominion, but still, what if the Nazis finished their A-bomb research? Then they would have a deathgrip on the world. Whatever one argues, by defeating Russia, the Nazis could have done so much more, and possibly even have exterminated as much as 95% of all Jews. Just look at what happened to Polish and German Jewry. What would have stopped Hitler from doing the same to other countries?


Sure, Stalin was evil, but to compare him to Hitler is ignorance. Thankless ignorance.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Why don't you take a look at how many people Stalin killed? He was in absolutely every way as evil as Hitler. And you question why we are offended - a Jew would be offended if you tried to defend Hitler, and likewise people like me - just some of the millions who lost family - are offended when you try to defend Stalin.

Those who defend Stalin are precisely the same as those who defend Hitler. They are defending the two most evil regimes ever put on the face of the earth, and it disgusts me. I ask that anyone who tries to defend Stalin educates themselves before they continue defending such a monster.

In short, those who are unaware of Stalin's crimes when defending him can plead ignorance. Those who are aware of the millions he slaughtered and continue to defend him? Words cannot describe my contempt.

[rvg]

Why don't you take a look at how many people Stalin killed? He was in absolutely every way as evil as Hitler. And you question why we are offended - a Jew would be offended if you tried to defend Hitler, and likewise people like me - just some of the millions who lost family - are offended when you try to defend Stalin.

Those who defend Stalin are precisely the same as those who defend Hitler. They are defending the two most evil regimes ever put on the face of the earth, and it disgusts me. I ask that anyone who tries to defend Stalin educates themselves before they continue defending such a monster.

In short, those who are unaware of Stalin's crimes when defending him can plead ignorance. Those who are aware of the millions he slaughtered and continue to defend him? Words cannot describe my contempt.

In terms of the body count, yes, Joe was as bad as Hitler. However, we cannot discount *why* the people were killed. Stalin killed them because of his paranoia and lack of tolerance towards any dissent whatsoever. In other words, his motives were ideological. Hitler's motives were genocidal, which is why he is most definitely worse than Stalin.

[Jolt]

I personally support authoritarianism, as I am a Russian, and authoritarianism is an excellent way to keep Putin as the dictator of Russia. I would not let other people attain such position, but Putin is an extraordinary person; he is a patriot comparable to Washington, Bolivar, Garibaldi, de Gaulle, Cincinnatus, and etc. He only does what he thinks is best for the country, and usually it is the best. In a democratic society this brilliant man would have been replaced by some average, corrupt drunk in 8 years, which would have annulled all that he has done for Russia. To sum it up, he might not be perfect, but he is best Russia has seen in a long, long time.

That is YOUR opinion, what makes you think the majority of Russia wants him as a dictator?

There is no reason to believe that any other politician in the Duma is better than him.

How the hell do you know? As far as I'm aware, Putin doesn't allow the Russian people to have be aware of what other politicians think of their country, or if they could do the job better than him. Thus everyone thinks he is the only man right for the job, as they don't know the opinion of other competent politicians since the Media is completely controlled. A man with the same ideals of Obama who could (Let's imagine) place Russia as the undisputed Superpower of the world in 6 years thanks to his Superhuman ability, would never ever be elected as President of Russia because Putin effectively controls the media, and counts with support from people like you to legitimatly cut off power to principled people attempting to do the best for their country. I call that kind of man a traitor.

I ask that anyone who tries to defend Stalin educates themselves

Making Portugal as one of the top powers in genocide was pretty laughable to me. 700 millions? That's an INSANELY Colossal, Gigantic, Gargantuan value. Unless you count every living soul in Portugal and its colonies who died during that period from every cause (Even natural death). Only that way could I believe Portugal got to 700 M. Portuguese Colonial War estimates place deaths at 2 million tops. Furthermore, the Portuguese Colonial Policies never conducted any significant democide throughout the Dictatorship Period. I'd do 5 Million people an already high estimate. 700 Million people is...bleh.
EDIT: Curiously enough, I can't find any sources from where he did draw that ridiculous number. Many many countries, but no Portugal.
EDIT2: Found it. 30 Million killed during the Colonial War? Whoever estimated this, is insane. Considering WW1 had a total of 16 Million deaths, fighting in a highly urbanized and densely populated area, thinking the Portuguese Colonial War even surpassed that number should be locked up in a sanitarium. In any case the total account to a massive 41 Million (Provided I'm reading this graphics correctly). It even adds deaths of Angolan refugees abroad, as if that accounted to direct Portuguese responsability. Bleh. Short and sweet, the Portuguese were far, far nicer than other colonial empires in their treatment of native people.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Why don't you take a look at how many people Stalin killed? He was in absolutely every way as evil as Hitler. And you question why we are offended - a Jew would be offended if you tried to defend Hitler, and likewise people like me - just some of the millions who lost family - are offended when you try to defend Stalin.

Those who defend Stalin are precisely the same as those who defend Hitler. They are defending the two most evil regimes ever put on the face of the earth, and it disgusts me. I ask that anyone who tries to defend Stalin educates themselves before they continue defending such a monster.

In short, those who are unaware of Stalin's crimes when defending him can plead ignorance. Those who are aware of the millions he slaughtered and continue to defend him? Words cannot describe my contempt.

There are no excuses for either of them, and it tires and saddens me to see people pull out the same old lines.

CR

[Kralizec]

I'll add that I think the USSR would have turned out pretty much the same without Stalin as well. Political opposition was banned and actively persecuted before he became really important, and most of the executive power was concentrated in a handful of offices- practicly an invitation for corrupt sociopaths.
Stalin lead the USSR to victory, but only after almost losing. If he hadn't purged the army and had reacted immediately when hearing of axis troops gathering at the border the Nazis probably wouldn't have been able to push so deeply into Russia to begin with.

Wether he was just as evil as Hitler is a moot question, really. I personally think that Hitler was crazy, especially towards the end, and probably thought that he was actually doing Germany a great service with his reign. I think that Stalin was ruthless to the extreme and paranoid, but otherwise completely rational.