Discussion of Stalinism

[Vuk]

“+ the doctrine of stalinism was based on public ownership + complete lack of entrepreneurship which in fact was one of the main reasons for the collapse of the system” and the other was based on Racism and murdering population not for what they thought but for what they were.
And Hitler as well killed for political reasons and as Stalin. The first concentration camps were built for the German opponents. He evens slaughtered in his own side (SA)…

By the way, the actual collapse is due to so-called entrepreneurs and their greed… So not really a valid reason to condemn Stalinism / Communism…

The fact is most of the reproaches towards Stalin (deportation, forced labours, Secret Police, political coup, absence of remorse and paranoia… etc) were actively done by the Capitalist states…

Communism didn’t work. But that is the only real difference with the Capitalism which is able to reinvent itself…

Holy jumping salt beans! If I do not see sources for that, I am afraid I am just gonna have to start laughing out loud right here and now.

[Brenus]

“If I do not see sources for that”: For which part?

Hitler’s ideology based on racism? Read the book.
Hitler killing his opponents: the night of the Long Knives.
Concentration camps built for the communists:
Most prisoners in the early concentration camps were German Communists, Socialists, Social Democrats, Gypsies, Jehovah’s Witnesses, homosexuals, and persons accused of "asocial" or socially deviant behaviour.

Actual economic collapse: read newspapers.

Capitalist states using all “communist” methods:
Secret polices: Okhrana, OSS, CIA, MI5, 2eme bureau, Agents aux Affaires Indigènes etc.
Forced Labour: I suggest to read Victor Hugo (Les Misérables) and to understand what happen to Jean Valjean…
It was common in the French, German, Belgian, Portuguese, Spanish colonies in Africa and in the British colonies.
If you preferred hard facts, research on Cayenne, or Australia, or USA/Canada (what populations were sent initially, Filles du Roi etc).
Or perhaps slavery would do.

Deportation: Research on the long Marche of the Indians in US, or what happen to the Communards after their defeat (Louise Michel as ex.). Or try Indians in Amazonia…
Political Coup: I would suggest Allende (Chile), Dr Mohamed Mossadegh (Iran) or Ngo Dinh Diem (Vietnam).
Or Louis Napoleon Bonaparte, or Franco, or Mussolini would do…
Absence of Remorse: Gal Sherman would be a good example, or Condor Operation…
Paranoia: Spain under Franco would do, or the Domino Theory…

Communism doesn’t work: World actual political situation. And the fact that China still exist shouldn’t blind you. China isn’t really communist any more…

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

“If I do not see sources for that”: For which part?

Hitler’s ideology based on racism? Read the book.
Hitler killing his opponents: the night of the Long Knives.
Concentration camps built for the communists:
Most prisoners in the early concentration camps were German Communists, Socialists, Social Democrats, Gypsies, Jehovah’s Witnesses, homosexuals, and persons accused of "asocial" or socially deviant behaviour.

Actual economic collapse: read newspapers.

Capitalist states using all “communist” methods:
Secret polices: Okhrana, OSS, CIA, MI5, 2eme bureau, Agents aux Affaires Indigènes etc.
Forced Labour: I suggest to read Victor Hugo (Les Misérables) and to understand what happen to Jean Valjean…
It was common in the French, German, Belgian, Portuguese, Spanish colonies in Africa and in the British colonies.
If you preferred hard facts, research on Cayenne, or Australia, or USA/Canada (what populations were sent initially, Filles du Roi etc).
Or perhaps slavery would do.

Deportation: Research on the long Marche of the Indians in US, or what happen to the Communards after their defeat (Louise Michel as ex.). Or try Indians in Amazonia…
Political Coup: I would suggest Allende (Chile), Dr Mohamed Mossadegh (Iran) or Ngo Dinh Diem (Vietnam).
Or Louis Napoleon Bonaparte, or Franco, or Mussolini would do…
Absence of Remorse: Gal Sherman would be a good example, or Condor Operation…
Paranoia: Spain under Franco would do, or the Domino Theory…

Communism doesn’t work: World actual political situation. And the fact that China still exist shouldn’t blind you. China isn’t really communist any more…

So you have to take the worst aspects of dozens of nations to match Stalin's regime. You don't see that as significant?

[Brenus]

“So you have to take the worst aspects of dozens of nations to match Stalin's regime. You don't see that as significant?”
I do. But it isn’t significant.
I am not supporter of Stalin or Communism. However, I try to be fair and just made some remarks about how evil is/was communism, but as much can be capitalism.
Stalin was a dictator. So communism under dictatorship is not too caring about human rights. So is capitalism with dictatorship.
Now, the question is what about communism in a democratic state. Never really happen because when a communist got democratically elected he got shot by a coup…

I could have done all this (almost) for one country.
Let’s try USA:
Secret Police: CIA and NSA.
Forced Labour: Some states are still practising it.
Deportation: Indians
Political Coup: Choose it. (Iran, Chile, Nicaragua…)
Absence of remorse: Native Indians, Vietnam.
Concentration Camps: US Japanese.
Paranoia: Mc Carthysm,
Can add segregation to the list…

I could do for a lot of countries… No countries or systems have not black side.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I agree with that, but there's really little comparison with the scale and scope of Stalin's tyranny. Looking at your list for the US, we weren't doing it all at the same time.

[Caius]

I could do for a lot of countries… No countries or systems have not black side.

You are right...

but capitalism makes you have certain freedom that you don't have with communism. Yes, there were US concentration camps during WWII, there was paranoia also, but there was not statal terrorism, there was not massive manipulation of media and numers, there was not collective poverty. That is Stalinism.

[Caius]

Sorry for double posting, but I had to write this.

I was remembering at the songs I heard in my infancy and heard this song, called Russians. I was so young to understand the meaning, and so young to understand another languaje! But I understood it.

Both stances were right and wrong at the same time. "There isn't monopoly on common sense, on either side of the political fence". One gave you freedom. Other gave you supervivence. Two nations fought one against the other. They fought with propaganda, and "side wars". They said that the other was the evil. One said that the other was a tyrant, and the other side said that their enemies are greedy, and the state "helped you".

With the capitalists, a lot of countries suffered the "fear of effect domino". Military coups were funded by the US in a desperate attempt to stop the belief that said that "if there is a communist country, the others will soon be communists too.". In the name of that belief, at least 5 coups were funded to install coups to eliminate "an internal enemy". Some countries didn't have a coup, but yet they had security agencies to eliminate the internal enemy.

With the communists, a lot of people were beneficiated by the system, but there was an important operative to keep the country safe of counter-revolutionary processes that could make the USSR shake. Those counterrevolutionary people were called "enemies of the party/the people", and they sent them to concentration camps to "reform them". Then, the entirely manipulation of media and censorship made the USSR people "believe in them". If you were killed by the political purge, you dissapeared. Over. You were a noperson, talking in a 1984 style.

This is, for me, the worse point of Stalinism, and Soviet Communism in general.
Communism is an utopy, based in a kind of system where the state can be the only rich, having a planificated economy, employing everyone, concentrating the industries, regulating commerce by stablishing prices, creating new cities, paying those workers a minimal wage, because the economy is not that powerful.
The system, as a glance, its perfect. There is not poverty, everyone has a job and contributes to the economy. What it was not taken into account, like Vuk said, is that communism is not human. It is normal to some people to express their disconformity, or to say no to certain decitions. Those people were denying that the System was perfect. The real thing is that there were few people who wanted to do what the party wanted. In other words, the system is not perfect, but those who tried to impose it were trying to make it work. With other events, this led to failure.