Seige Weapons and Artillery

[bamff]

Having recently discussed the uses of the Organ Gun, I started to think about other items in this family. Some of them I find very useful, some not at all...but I do train most of them from time to time, purely to add flavour I suppose.

My own personal favourites would be the culverin and demi culverin. I just love watching the animation of them firing, and then watching the target wall disintegrating. Similarly I love watching that long arm on the Trebuchet snapping forward to unleash its missile.

So....what are your personal favourites and why?

Also is there any way to make Ballistas useful? They do seem to be one of the more pointless units floating around....

[seireikhaan]

On ballistas- I believe it has yet to been solved as to what exact point they serve in this game.

Personally, about the only time I use siege weapons are when I know I'm defending a bridge, and in that case, I'll try to bring some catapults along for the ride to lob into the mass piles. Later on, if I've been in a comfortable position long enough, I might have some form of cannons, probably culverins/demi-culverins. However, I pretty much never fight sieges, so I don't really do much in the way of using them in actual, ya know, siege warfare.

Organ guns I haven't used in forever- I've tried discontinuing my old habit of hiring mercenaries, and I pretty well never get around to the crazy build requirements for the organs.

[Roark]

My latest love affair is with Serpentines... in groups of 4, on defence (*laughs maniacally*).

Seriously, 4 serps is DIRE in the extreme, especially with a good general.

[bamff]

On ballistas- I believe it has yet to been solved as to what exact point they serve in this game.

Agreed, although I do like that noise that they may when they fire.....not enough to EVER recruit any though....

My latest love affair is with Serpentines... in groups of 4, on defence (*laughs maniacally*).

Seriously, 4 serps is DIRE in the extreme, especially with a good general.

You know, up until now I have never bothered with either Organs or Serps either, but after reading of your Metal Storm army, that will soon all change....

[I of the Storm]

Ballistae are partially useful for the first 20 turns or so, to crack open wooden forts quicker and with less casualties than with people bashing at the wall. That's all I can think of.

[caravel]

Also is there any way to make Ballistas useful? They do seem to be one of the more pointless units floating around....

I've pondered this in the past and I don't think there is. If you give them a faster rate of fire and lessen the damage from the projectile it's no longer any use against fortifications. If you strengthen it and decrease it's rate of fire you have a weapon that's better against fortifications but doesn't have any advantage over a catapult. Also any adjustments outside certain limits leave the weapon either insanely overpowered or useless. In reality I think the answer to ballistas is outside modding limits (the need to be in batteries of 3 or 4 and should be mobile). If anyone has any input as to how to use improve them I'd like to hear it as well.

[naut]

I've pondered this in the past and I don't think there is. If you give them a faster rate of fire and lessen the damage from the projectile it's no longer any use against fortifications. If you strengthen it and decrease it's rate of fire you have a weapon that's better against fortifications but doesn't have any advantage over a catapult. Also any adjustments outside certain limits leave the weapon either insanely overpowered or useless. In reality I think the answer to ballistas is outside modding limits (the need to be in batteries of 3 or 4 and should be mobile). If anyone has any input as to how to use improve them I'd like to hear it as well.

It's not that hard to make them movable, like cannons in N-TW. I just don't have the talent to make the textures.

[caravel]

Precisely. Sprites can be made that can then be assigned the ballista projectile, as you say it's making the sprites.

[naut]

Ballistas are alright if you make them able to penetrate enemy soldiers, but it also then depends on the trajectory.

[Fagar]

Unfortunately short of modding them Ballistae are useless in MTW.
They had there place in traditional Roman seiges and did survive into the medieval period and I guess because of this aspect they should be represented in MTW but are basically redundant.
I never use them except if I have one in a starting unit and the province happens to be invaded.

Organ cannons and serpentines I will use occassionally and I build the odd mortar crew for the fear factor and the easy building requirements.
However if I am serious about artillery I get into demi-culvern crews.
Especially if I have just taken a province and know it will attempt to be retaken next turn I will bring them along.

[bamff]

....I build the odd mortar crew for the fear factor and the easy building requirements....

Hmmm - there is another one that I have never employed!

[Fagar]

They are worth a go Bamff even if it is just to say that you have employed them in a battle.
Downside is they take 3ys to build and are horribly innacurate.

They do however make a lot of noise, can be seen to make the enemy nervous and add atmosphere to a battle.

[Knight of the Rose]

I've only once used mortars in a siege battle and was very dissapointed when they couldn't hit the walls. The high arch and the inaccuracy proved it too much of a challange for them. I think it is an open question whether or not they are worth the efford in a field battle. Personally I don't use them.

/KotR

[caravel]

Mortars tend to explode also.

[Fagar]

They are horribly innacurate.
They do explode.
In fact it is almost a given that they will explode before they exhaust their artillery.
As stated I only use them sparingly to add a little something different from time to time.
I also use bombard crews for the same purpose.

[Roark]

However if I am serious about artillery I get into demi-culvern crews.
Especially if I have just taken a province and know it will attempt to be retaken next turn I will bring them along.

You use demi-culverins against troops?

[Ironsword]

^^ I occasionally use culverins against troops. Whilst not the most accurate, the massive range means that they indiscriminantly bludgeon quite a few foes as they are manouvering in the distance.

When the enemy are beginning to close with my lines, I withdraw the crews and replace them with infantry or cavalry.

[Axalon]

Doing some siegeing are we, eh guys?

Well, to me there are only catapults and trebuchets (ballista’s, as already pointed out, are useless and thus invites you to regard them as redundant). Call me old fashioned but what else is there?!? All the gunpowder stuff is just a lot of smoke – it is not even there if you look close enough. He he, I wish anyway… Besides are we already at turn 1260?!? Who is the rascal that can’t leave the blasted end-turn button alone?!? And more importantly, why wasn’t I told about it?? More catapults less cannons, that’s the way to go!

Wha? Is it gunpowder-time already? Arggh! If you want cannons - play ETW! ....Just thinking out loud here.
No offence intended of course, all you miserable cannon-lovers….


- Cheers

------------
On slightly other and a bit overdue note: my congrats and best wishes to Bamff, stepping in now that Caravel got promoted. From the little I know of you I’m sure you’ll do great job just like your predecessor did. Speaking of which, were is that rascal? Off to distant Japan and STW it seems?!? Hiding under a foreign name I’m told – what will his troops at home think!?! Granted that I hear the wenches are fine, the rice-wine is tasty and that there are a lot of juice territory to conquer as well over there but even such excuses is stretching things I think. That is no place for a good lord and knight like him – so far away from home. He ought to know better…. - My congrats to you too my good neighbor even if you’re turned all green these days – don’t forget to tend to your old domains. The fair meadows and lush forests surrounding “castle pocket mod” should not be neglected even if the grandchancellor has honored you with additional duties. I’d guess that those seven maidens you sent Tosa from your last campaign really did the trick here!

As for the eternal camel lord Martok who leaves us all for sexier graphics over at the newly discovered ETW-land, to you I just offer a few humble “words of wisdom” for your new adventures over there. Firstly, don’t be fooled by the strange new weaponry found in ETW. Whatever it is, it is not as dependable as Spanish steel and a sturdy catapult! The whole gunpowder thingie is just a hoax – you’ll see…. Secondly, steer your white camel back home to the safety of MTW-land once in while. Your camel will be much happier that way (as the rest of us) because I keep hearing that they don’t have any decent camel-fodder over in ETW-territory….

So, all silly nonsense aside, congrats to the avid chronicler Bamff, also to ever working Caravel whom I believe will do an excellent job - even if Martok is a tough act to follow. Caravel, you sure earned this by hard work. And finally, a good luck to you Martok (and your camel) with your new duties in the far away and strange ETW-forum, and I’d like to throw in a general thank you for your service here at the Main hall as well. All congrats-threads were closed when I finally discovered all this stuff so I thought I’d slip it all in right here (after all, it just had go somewhere)…


On a general note: I know that this is supposed to be some kind of secret but is it true
that the title of “Lord Moderator of the Main Hall” grants +2 loyalty, +2 acumen...?

[caravel]

Doing some siegeing are we, eh guys?

Well, to me there are only catapults and trebuchets (ballista’s, as already pointed out, are useless and thus invites you to regard them as redundant). Call me old fashioned but what else is there?!? All the gunpowder stuff is just a lot of smoke – it is not even there if you look close enough. He he, I wish anyway… Besides are we already at turn 1260?!? Who is the rascal that can’t leave the blasted end-turn button alone?!? And more importantly, why wasn’t I told about it?? More catapults less cannons, that’s the way to go!

Wha? Is it gunpowder-time already? Arggh! If you want cannons - play ETW! ....Just thinking out loud here.
No offence intended of course, all you miserable cannon-lovers….

Well met Sir.

Indeed, unless you get close enough to actually smell what your enemy had for dinner this morning there is not much point is there?

On slightly other and a bit overdue note: my congrats and best wishes to Bamff, stepping in now that Caravel got promoted. From the little I know of you I’m sure you’ll do great job just like your predecessor did. Speaking of which, were is that rascal? Off to distant Japan and STW it seems?!? Hiding under a foreign name I’m told – what will his troops at home think!?! Granted that I hear the wenches are fine, the rice-wine is tasty and that there are a lot of juice territory to conquer as well over there but even such excuses is stretching things I think. That is no place for a good lord and knight like him – so far away from home. He ought to know better…. - My congrats to you too my good neighbor even if you’re turned all green these days – don’t forget to tend to your old domains. The fair meadows and lush forests surrounding “castle pocket mod” should not be neglected even if the grandchancellor has honored you with additional duties. I’d guess that those seven maidens you sent Tosa from your last campaign really did the trick here!

You should give the SW mod a try my friend, or even STW itself.

As for the eternal camel lord Martok who leaves us all for sexier graphics over at the newly discovered ETW-land, to you I just offer a few humble “words of wisdom” for your new adventures over there. Firstly, don’t be fooled by the strange new weaponry found in ETW. Whatever it is, it is not as dependable as Spanish steel and a sturdy catapult! The whole gunpowder thingie is just a hoax – you’ll see…. Secondly, steer your white camel back home to the safety of MTW-land once in while. Your camel will be much happier that way (as the rest of us) because I keep hearing that they don’t have any decent camel-fodder over in ETW-territory….

The Great Lord Martok is secretly getting very excited about ETW but doesn't want to tell us!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

J/k Martok is busy helping out in a very difficult part of the forums. He deserves much credit for this. Lord of Camels we salute you.

On a general note: I know that this is supposed to be some kind of secret but is it true
that the title of “Lord Moderator of the Main Hall” grants +2 loyalty, +2 acumen...?

You've forgotten the +4 dread and -8 piety.

[Fagar]

^^ I occasionally use culverins against troops. Whilst not the most accurate, the massive range means that they indiscriminantly bludgeon quite a few foes as they are manouvering in the distance.

When the enemy are beginning to close with my lines, I withdraw the crews and replace them with infantry or cavalry.

Yep exactly Ironsword.
They miss a lot but when a 30 odd pound ball of lead plows through the enemy lines from so far away the naked eye can barely see it is pretty cool.
I love seeing the shot go off and then the little green casualty bar on my battle map rushing forward.
Once I was lucky enough for a shot to plow into a heap of Turkish horse archers, taking out 10 of the 40 and they ran!! Sweet.

[Axalon]

Hey Caravel/Naga!

If the foe is getting that close to your siege engines, you just got to be doing something seriously wrong! Besides, don’t those boys – I mean the crews - always go on a “stratigical-lunch-break” when that happens?

I’m no connoisseur of cannons that’s for sure, thus I don’t even bother with ‘em. I’m too busy looking good with my catapults! So what that they are not as effective – who cares. They’re cool, that’s what counts! Personally I entertain silly notions of total gun-powder rejections in both MTW and STW. I want spears, swords and catapults! Steel not sulfur! It probably is not the best thing you can do battle, but it sure is cooler! As I said, if I want gun-powder - I’m sure ETW are more than happy to oblige in that area. The only exception I got going is naphtha throwers (and if I remember all things correctly that aint no gun-powder in those little jars either). Silly me, but there you have it….

You should give the SW mod a try my friend, or even STW itself.

Like, Axakazi the stern warlord? Maybe I will just do that some day....

I actually started my TW-career with STW so that little beauty is no stranger to me – rather an old and beloved friend she is. I still regard her to be the sexiest member and certainly the most fun to play with in the entire TW-family (unaltered original versions). MTW is an ok and nice game in its original form but in that state it can’t really compete at all with STW. It sprawls too much and lacks the tightness of STW. It also got to many “new” things and changes that I don’t really like much. No throne room, no 4-turns/per year (o boy, do I miss those), no colorful event announcer, no cool videos and on and on. Along with that, there are “new” stuff such as the horrible V&Vs system that really drags MTW down (the actual implementation of a partly ok idea ended up being just awful). Shogun don’t have any of that – which is a major, major plus. On top of that there is stuff like the portraits for instance, which I don’t care that much for either (eventually the stock-portraits annoyed me enough to replace them all with my own stuff – catholic factions only thou – all that work is just murder. I sure could have spent all that time better in retrospect. Silly me). The reasons as for why I even bother with MTW is because you can change/mod it (and it is fairly friendly to that, VI especially) and the potential framework of the game can be bigger and more complex – if needed. If needed. Besides, I also like the setting of knights and princesses and such stuff more than I do samurais (which are cool also!). And, it still is the best medieval battlefield simulator released to date – and that is a major factor for me.

All this of course is just my personal opinions and nothing else, I’m sure that there are plenty of people that have a very different take on all this. And, in no way is this an attempt to tell people what to think, like or do.

As for SW then…. I have actually considered to play SW for years now (at least back to beta 5 or there about). Even downloaded it twice but I never seem to get around to play it. As for now, I’m too busy with finishing up the latest edition of my own project. Maybe I’ll take vacation from MTW after that and finally give SW a go – time will tell eventually I’d guess. As far as I can tell from the files and stuff I have checked out - the craftsmanship of SW is first class so that is a nice and inviting trait for me. Definitely a selling point for SW and that is the very thing that made me interested in it in the first place. As for reservations about SW, I can only think of one that has any bearing for me personally; it is based on MTW. Believe it or not!

Meaning you’re stuck with 1 turn/year instead of the “real” years of STW - 4 turns a year. Along with no throne room and a few other things like that - essentially you’re stuck with all the hard-coded stuff and limitations and traits that comes with MTW. In battles this should not matter much and possibly SW has the potential to be even better than STW due to a potentially better tactical-AI behavior found in MTW. The valor system could very well also be in favor of MTW. I can’t remember how it is for the moment but in shogun it is just a body count, right? Anyway, the combat-system of shogun is there so I assume (right? Wrong?) that the SW-people just moved that over to MTW. It works very well with the circumstances it has to operate on in STW so it should work very well for SW also. With a limited troop-roster and all that. Thus, all problems that I see in the standard MTW combat-system should be avoided successfully I’d guess. Anyway, all this is just opinions of mine nothing else.

Perhaps I will one day manage to take that final step and get to do some serious SW-time (I do wonder how it will be with all those extra factions it got? Will it actually end up being better that way?). As I said, I have considered it from time to time. At any rate, it sure has been a while since I played with STW – perhaps I should do something about that….

“The Great Lord Martok is secretly getting very excited about ETW but doesn't want to tell us!”

Didn’t I see his camel strolling about just few minutes ago? Happy as can be with belly full genuine tasty MTW camel-fodder. If we hurry, we might catch him and Martok can’t be far away (he never is with that camel of his). Then we got him corned and he’ll sing the full opera for us regarding ETW – all we have to do is just to threaten to slap his camel (we wont of course, but Martok don’t know that) and he’ll see things our way I’m sure.… Nonsens aside, yeah he will be pretty busy these days with ETW, trying to bring some order in all this ETW-hysteria that is around these days - probably not an easy job at all.

You've forgotten the +4 dread and -8 piety.”

I knew it! That means that you have an ever standing invitation to dine royally in the holy dungeons of the Vatican, right? And that the holy inquisition has given up on you after 437 attempts to straighten you out. And that you now have the power of silencing men of the cloth by sheer dread-factor. Oh boy, that just got to be grand!

- Cheers

[caravel]

As far as STW goes, I can get on very with Teppo (Arquebus/Musket) units. In MTW I prefer not to use any gunpowder and I don't use siege equipment at all. I feel that siege equipment ruined the game somewhat and that MTW's sieges are simply not that epic. This is the one thing that RTW/M2TW does vastly better than MTW. Vanilla MTW suffered from AI siege equipment spam as well. Ballista revolts or facing armies of trebuchets can be annoying.

[gollum]

Originally posted by Asai Nagamasa
This is the one thing that RTW/M2TW does vastly better than MTW.

Agreed.

I feel that siege equipment ruined the game somewhat and that MTW's sieges are simply not that epic.

Disagree.

Its fun to play them especially in large Castles. In defence you can set up missiles (bows and crossbows) protected by the buildings inside the ring wall to create killing zones, that are designed to shoot the enemy in the back while the melee units engage them.

In attack they can be much fun too if you actually assault - the only problem being that waiting them out is vastly more efficient, since the AI usually retreats a full stack in the castle that means that they will fall in two years. He does however attack to reduce the garisson after losing the battle that makes waiting for him good and the need for assault sometimes inevitable.

Sieges in MTW are more important in the larger settings (LARGE and HUGE) because the overall armies around are smaller in numbers. This means that fronts cannot be always fully covered and you might want to use the retreat to castle option as often as its required, while having good small garissons in case the enemy assaults say a unit of spears and a unit of militia (to do pin and flank that can take out even enemy elite assault units like knights).

Vanilla MTW suffered from AI siege equipment spam as well. Ballista revolts or facing armies of trebuchets can be annoying.

This is a true problem BUT if you dissallow in vanilla ballistas as recruitable units at all and make catapults unavailable after the early era, and bombards in the late era - its isnt all that bad actually. Its a bit like peasants that the AI factions use - they seems a tremendous problem but actually they are a tweak away from solution (that is removing them as recruitable units).

If the AI has a couple catapults in its army stacks is ok by me - the problem is if he has a couple of units in his catapult/ballista stacks.

[caravel]

Perhaps our likes and dislikes come from different perspectives? As to why I dislike sieges:

1) AI units marching up and down in front of the gate and around the walls getting shot to pieces in the process.

2) Tower upgrades that actually shoot at your own walls/towers/gates.

3) Men cannot be deployed onto the walls as would have been the case historically, which means that most sieges tend to be boring affairs, involving laying out missile units to concentrate their fire on the breach/gate and lining up your defensive units in front of the breach/gate.

4) On the offchance that you have a decent number of units ready for a seige, the AI will probably wait to starve you out - which will probably only take a year...

5) If you have 10 peasants the siege will last years and the AI will most likely assault and kill off the garrison with ease after first doing #1 of course - and because you only had 10 peasants when fighting the siege you had no chance to even try #3. *

6) Siege equipment cannot move and there are no siege towers or ladders, because the walls cannot be mounted.



* Of course the ratio of food to men should be observed - and this would not be such an issue if MTW had 4 seasons like it's predecessor instead of years.

[PershsNhpios]

Those are all points which kept me auto-calculating sieges for one year of gameplay, Asai.

However, in XL and other modifications I have since decided to play out every major siege.
Except for in NTW, these are often the only times when I lose large numbers of men and I do enjoy playing the assaults from a low, distant perspective. Especially with gunpowder!

The annoyances of the rationing system creates some difficult situations for the player who wishes not to lose 250 men in an assault. This has lead me to some strange strategies, but I have overcome the problem.. even if ahistorically.

For example, in my NTW campaign I just attacked Denmark, where the English, instead of withdrawing, sent 500 men to defend against my 2800 or so.
They came to me on the field.. but I was prepared.

Even though they were on the end of the map, I surrounded them as much as possible with cavalry, bombarded them for half an hour on double-time, and then swooped in.
Not a man survived. I lost 9 men, and the Prefecture V (Citadel) almost survived intact.
I will never allow a siege against one man in Constantinople to happen again.

---

As for the equipment available in Vanilla, let me give my experiences - though admittedly many were in XL with the same units;

- I played RTW first of all.. And I loved using batteries of Ballistae, especially Onagers, (Til EB ruined my fun!) however I simply never grew attached to the Ballistae in MTW.
I remember training two so painfully for my first campaign as the French.
When the Aragonese came, I thought surely they were bound for failure due to my devastating artillery.

Every minute or so a couple of spears would be flung into a mass of Iberians, without noticeable effect.
I have never used Ballistae since.

-Catapults can be very effective with bridge defence! Certainly! Even if there is an area where the enemy must be channeled in order to reach your position, then is the Catapult also terrific!
But because early in the game of XL or Vanilla there tend to be few great armies, or at least few large garrisons, I have hardly used these for siege assaults.
And they are out of date for NTW..

-Trebuchets are only useful if one intends to fight siege battles, and they should never be used on a battlefield.
I have had some epic sieges with them in Milan and Venice when I had an overbearing Scottish Empire.

-Mangonels.. Well, I have never seen any advantage in bothering to build a Master Siege 'Shop for this weapon.. It seems inferior to the Trebuchet.

-Surprisingly, I have used the Bombard many times on the Russian Steppe to tear down Slavs in their hundreds, and I have never used it in a siege! Marvellous on the field, if you can predict the enemy movement.

-I hired an Organ gun long ago in a Sicilian Campaign for an attack against the Almohads.
The army was successful with few casualties all the way to Morocco, where they suffered defeat.
800 Berbers bore down on 300 Normans with an Organ gun.
I almost cried when I saw how weak the range was on the gun - maybe it would shoot out a little sign with, "BANG" written on it.

Swathes of Urban Militia made their way against my knights, and I was thinking only of my 350 Florins which I had paid out.
Then they came into range, just charging into the grey line, and I thought I would test this waste of money.

It killed 80 men in one blast - the entire Berber host routed.
I now have respect for that weapon, but I know not how to 'build' it.

-Serpentines I have never used, but after seeing two cause 33% casualties to my army once before they approached the enemy, I am willing to try them when I have XL again.

-Culverins and Demi-Culverins are my favourites. When I can afford them at last, I have four in every army, and usually a great siege-train including eight of them to follow conquering armies.
They are terrific for decimating enemy lines, especially if you are fighting in Russia or any flatland.

And I believe that the only siege weapons I have not used are the Siege Cannon, (Turkic) and the Mortar.

Can someone explain the difference in the Naptha weapon? It's use?

[caravel]

Can someone explain the difference in the Naptha weapon? It's use?

In vanilla MTW Naptha throwers are small teams carrying pots of greek fire. They're stupidly powerful incendiary weapons. If you can get a volley off at some low morale units it's pretty much instant rout. In XL I think they were replaced by the naptha catapults?

[Axalon]

As far as STW goes, I can get on very with Teppo (Arquebus/Musket) units. In MTW I prefer not to use any gunpowder and I don't use siege equipment at all. I feel that siege equipment ruined the game somewhat and that MTW's sieges are simply not that epic. This is the one thing that RTW/M2TW does vastly better than MTW. Vanilla MTW suffered from AI siege equipment spam as well. Ballista revolts or facing armies of trebuchets can be annoying.

Each man to his own path to bliss my friend, each man to his path... If Teppos works for you – then Teppos it is….

Sieges as a concept (including the machines) in MTW could probably have been better designed within the game-framework somehow (more similar to MTW2 would have definitely been nice), but it appears that we are pretty much stuck with the basic hard-coded model of it so there should be little flexibility there. Perhaps a new thread that open-mindedly discussed and explored what few potential and possible improvements, remedies and/or alterations that could be done is the thing to do here? Over at the Engineers guild?


- Cheers

[Fagar]

In vanilla MTW Naptha throwers are small teams carrying pots of greek fire. They're stupidly powerful incendiary weapons. If you can get a volley off at some low morale units it's pretty much instant rout. In XL I think they were replaced by the naptha catapults?

The Roman armies were terrified of Naptha in the day and rightly so.
It's ability for a small amount to cause horrific amounts of damage and the fanatical use of it by their enemies justified this.
I for one am not dissapointed by amount of damage it causes in MTW.

A naptha unit is reasonably hard to deploy correctly without lighting up your own troops so when this can be done successfully I am happy to see some good rewards.

I especially like launching a volley into mounted troops the kill ratio is sometimes spectacular, especially Hungarian horse archers that don't seem to skirmish when you march Naptha throwers at them!

[caravel]

Yes I quite like naptha throwers as well. In fact they're the only "siege equipment" that I do use.

[Roark]

-Mangonels.. Well, I have never seen any advantage in bothering to build a Master Siege 'Shop for this weapon.. It seems inferior to the Trebuchet.

It does? In which way???