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Thread: The Shiny Mod (AKA: Adding some variety and general fixes)

  1. #1
    The Dam Dog Senior Member Sheogorath's Avatar
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    Default The Shiny Mod (AKA: Adding some variety and general fixes)

    Alright, so yes, the generic line infantry in the game do have stat variations between nations, BUT, and I think many agree with me, it's a bit disappointing that they're all the same. This, and a few other 'easy' fixes, I think, are well within the limits of our fabulous modding community out here.

    As I've said before, I have no particular computer-related modding skills. I would, however, be pleased to help out with the research a bit.

    So, getting into the details, I hereby propose the following:

    1. Creation of new skins/models for line infantry and guards, giving different ones to each nation. Uniforms should come from as early as possible initially. Re-name units in order to give yet more sense of variety (Lieb Guard, Old Guard, etc.)
    1a. Addition of technology to the tech tree which gives units new uniforms? That would be great, if possible. If not, consider unlocking new units as a means of updating uniforms. This is already somewhat in place with the Ottomans and the Nizam units, which are unlocked with the 'Western Drill' technology.
    Is it possible to disable outmoded units somehow? That might be worth investigating.

    2. Removal of grenadier and grenade launchers, creation of proper grenadier units (IE: Improved line infantry). Take away Grenzer's 'double barreled muskets'. Basically fix the 'silly' units.
    (NOTE: I, by no means, propose a %100 historical accuracy mod, but there is such a thing as going too far. I can deal with not having exactly the right uniform colors, and everybody wearing the same hat, and even the steamships, but, really, GRENADE LAUNCHERS? C'mon, people.)

    3. Fix Georgia and Dageistan's unit rosters. Possibly just give Dageistan some Ottoman units as a quick fix. It's silly that they use Western units.

    4. Throw in some more unique units. I'm sure it shouldn't be too difficult to come up with something for the United Provinces and Prussia. Each major faction should, IMO, have about the same number of units as the British.

    5. Possible research into Eastern navies and creation of Eastern ship models. I know the Ottomans adopted Western-style ship building, but they also maintained more traditional ships, and I'm pretty sure the Indian states didn't build ships of the line.
    5a. The naval units seem more or less good for now, but I think some improvements could be made, perhaps some minor model changes between nations to give ships a unique feel. As it is, I think the whole 'clone fleets' are a little odd).


    If people are willing to join in on this little project, great. I'm willing to take opinions on this and to make changes in accordance with what the people want.

    Keep in mind, once again, that this is NOT necessarily a historical accuracy mod. It is, if you will, a gameplay improvement mod. Certainly some changes will tend towards historical, but we should leave the %100 accuracy to the good folks at Empire Total Realism, which should be on its way shortly, if not already. While certain a-historical units which, in my opinion, break the 'feel' of the game (grenade launchers, once again ) will be taken out, some can remain, as long as they fit the 'feel', I'm fine with steamships, simply because they seem like they 'could have been'. Likewise Russia's 'Steltsy' unit.

    This may seem a bit schizophrenic, but I'm sure something can be worked out. We are, after all, here to have fun :P
    Tallyho lads, rape the houses and burn the women! Leave not a single potted plant alive! Full speed ahead and damn the cheesemongers!

  2. #2
    The Dam Dog Senior Member Sheogorath's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Shiny Mod (AKA: Adding some variety and general fixes)

    I know double posting is bad and all, but wow, 130 views and no replies.
    I'm a marketing genius!
    Now, if only I had a product
    Tallyho lads, rape the houses and burn the women! Leave not a single potted plant alive! Full speed ahead and damn the cheesemongers!

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    Undercover Lurker Member Mailman653's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Shiny Mod (AKA: Adding some variety and general fixes)

    I have noticed that there is a late British unit that wears shakos, maybe once the tools are out and if we can mod the models, maybe we can give other units shakos and have that early-mid 19th century look.

    But then there is the issue of the shared gloss.tga's and what not, it just seems difficult right now without the tools and knowing what we can and can't do. For instance I would love to see British artliery in blue coats not red, but unless I want cause every arty soldier in the game to have a white coat minus the British, it's not worth changing atm.
    Last edited by Mailman653; 03-10-2009 at 08:29.

  4. #4

    Default Re: The Shiny Mod (AKA: Adding some variety and general fixes)

    I have not got to the grenzers ingame yet, but they were historically equipped with double barreled muskets (one barrel rifled) and short pikes (to stabilise heavy musket and for self-defense). But only 2500 pieces of these "Doppelstutzen" were made and issued to grenzer sharpshooters. The weapon was used from 1768 to 1808, AFAIK.

    So it is historical weapon, but in the same sense as flaming pigs and screeching women...

    Concerning skins and realistic uniform details, I could gladly help with my limited knowledge of uniformology. I have my copy of Bleckwenn┤s Frederickian uniforms ready

  5. #5
    The Dam Dog Senior Member Sheogorath's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Shiny Mod (AKA: Adding some variety and general fixes)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mailman653 View Post
    I have noticed that there is a late British unit that wears shakos, maybe once the tools are out and if we can mod the models, maybe we can give other units shakos and have that early-mid 19th century look.

    But then there is the issue of the shared gloss.tga's and what not, it just seems difficult right now without the tools and knowing what we can and can't do. For instance I would love to see British artliery in blue coats not red, but unless I want cause every arty soldier in the game to have a white coat minus the British, it's not worth changing atm.
    Well, even if the colors cant be got just right, we can at least give them the right TYPE of uniforms, eh?

    And change the Spanish factions color. I'm all for distinctive colorings, but 'Piss Yellow' doesn't exactly appeal to my sense of military panache

    Quote Originally Posted by Laudon View Post
    I have not got to the grenzers ingame yet, but they were historically equipped with double barreled muskets (one barrel rifled) and short pikes (to stabilise heavy musket and for self-defense). But only 2500 pieces of these "Doppelstutzen" were made and issued to grenzer sharpshooters. The weapon was used from 1768 to 1808, AFAIK.

    So it is historical weapon, but in the same sense as flaming pigs and screeching women...

    Concerning skins and realistic uniform details, I could gladly help with my limited knowledge of uniformology. I have my copy of Bleckwenn┤s Frederickian uniforms ready
    Seems a bit pointless, even so >_>

    Maybe create a seperate unit for double-barreled grenzers, then. Apparently it IS possible to make it so only one of a unit can be recruited.

    Anyway, I'm sure we can come up with something good enough to appease the historian crowd while still being fairly possible.


    So, in terms of uniform structure, I'm thinking something like this:

    An 'early' set of fairly same-y uniforms (possibly based off of CA's default ones) which covers the period to 1750, since, as far as I can tell, the forums appear to have got it right that most people wore pretty much the same thing until that time.

    The 'middle' set, which would essentially be the 'evolved' form of the early uniforms, representing the era when the Prussian model was popular. Frederick the Great and all that jazz.

    The last set will be the late model Napoleonic/Pre-Napoleon era uniforms. Lots of nice straight lines and suchlike. Maybe we can talk to the fellows at LORDZ and see if they'll give us some advise on those.


    I also propose the following stat fixes:

    Make British infantry more expensive. As it is, they're only 80 more than Russian line, who are pretty much the worst European line infantry. I'd say double their price, initially. Also, give them a boost in upkeep cost as well. The British trained their infantry heavily in marksmanship, and bullets and gunpowder aren't free.
    Take their melee attack down to normal and give them a boost in accuracy, and maybe range.

    Decrease Prussian infantry's defense, increase their attack, accuracy and morale. Slight increase in price.

    Increase Russian infantry's morale, and increase their melee skills. It's hardly fair to the Russians to make their line infantry so terrible without giving any compensation. Possibly decrease their price/upkeep a bit as well.

    Are the Austrians and French alright as-is? Maybe increase the Frenchies cost/upkeep to represent the French tendency to overspend on shiny bits? Any French/Austrian specialists who care to comment?

    Increase artillery accuracy in general. Maybe the current settings are accurate, but really, it's only one shot out of 10 that actually kills more than one guy. It's kind of a downer :P

    Change all line infantry names to "(Country) Line Infantry", EX: British Line Infantry, French Line Infantry, etc.

    Unique names and stats for Guard units. Lifeguard for Russia, Footguard for the British, that sort of thing.

    Make grenadier units equivalent in size to line infantry, boost their melee ability (and maybe their accuracy, a little) and take away their grenades. Remove grenade launchers in countries that have them and replace with standard grenadiers as required.

    Do we take out puckle guns? I'm not sure on that one. They dont seem quite as totally silly as the grenade launchers, but they are a little out of place. Maybe just replace them with maxim guns or something. They'll fit in with the steam ships.

    That's just the initial list, of course. Trying not to get TOO ambitious here :P
    Tallyho lads, rape the houses and burn the women! Leave not a single potted plant alive! Full speed ahead and damn the cheesemongers!

  6. #6

    Default Re: The Shiny Mod (AKA: Adding some variety and general fixes)

    If the engine allows, there could be

    1)some new cathegories of units - for example prussian fusiliers (are they even ingame?, if not, CA have omitted almost half of Old Fritz┤s infantry) or austrian hungarian infantry (which should have greater melee skills then austrian german fusiliers, because hungarians were more fond of getting to hand to hand combat - ex. regiment Haller at Kolin shoot off their ammo and afterwards draw sabres -which only hungarians had- and charged the prussian line in spite of their fire).

    2)some special units which would be limited in numbers (famous regiments), for example prussian dragoon regiment Bayreuth (twice the number of men and elite) and hussar regiment Zieten (more elite and famous then even the "death heads", if only in the person of its inhaber, the "father of all prussian hussars").

    Are the Austrians and French alright as-is? Maybe increase the Frenchies cost/upkeep to represent the French tendency to overspend on shiny bits? Any French/Austrian specialists who care to comment?
    I would add to the list of inaccurancies to be removed the inclusion of "carabiniers" as some shooty cavalry. Real austrian carabiniers were elite squadrons of cuirassiers, often detached in amalgamated corps of super-heavy cavalry (the foot grenadiers were used likewise).

    Heh, I am glad the CA did not read about horse grenadiers - the elite squadrons of dragoons. I could imagine what would follow...

    The austrians definitely miss hungarian infantry and possibly SYW era grenzers (by the time of SYW the prussians were gaining the upper hand in the "kleine krieg" due to its superior hussars and "castration" of grenzers by austrian military reforms).

    On the other hand, austrians got lancer (uhlan) regiments only after dividing of Poland. The austrian lancers are more napoleonic, then SYW thing. The austrian army also had not any guard formations.

    The austrian army underwent major reform between Silesian wars and SYW and the austrian infantry was noted for its standing power ("These are not the old Austrians" said Frederick after Lobositz). The real reason which caused their loss in the SYW was not inferiority of their army (the Alte Fritz was soundly beaten more then once by them), but their f***ed economy, court intrique and diplomatic changes (especially the miracle of the House of Brandenburg).

    ***

    To end this monologue, I am able to supply data about SYW (especially austrian and prussian side, books by Bleckwenn, Pengel and Hurt, Duffy, Ospreys...) and napoleonic uniforms, army organization and campaigns, but I am unable to make new skins and to mod.

  7. #7
    The Dam Dog Senior Member Sheogorath's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Shiny Mod (AKA: Adding some variety and general fixes)

    -I believe all the major factions get light infantry, so it's just a matter of renaming them in a faction-appropriate manner, and maybe increasing their unit size.

    For the Hungarian units, perhaps just take the NTW approach and give the Austrians two sets of units? Austrian/Hungarian Line, Grenadiers, etc.?

    -Already noted the famous regiments :P
    Peraps we can get somebody to make a slightly-taller than normal model for Frederick the Great's giant grenadiers

    -We may just end up removing the ability of dragoons to shoot altogether...or perhaps have a 'late dragoon' unit which acts as medium cavalry, but is no longer armed with a carbine. I think that dragoons as mounted infantry pretty much dissapeared by the the mid-1700's, right?

    -Aye, I know of that.
    We'll definitely have to reform the cavalry rosters. As I recall, by the Napoleonic wars, the UK was pretty much the only country that DIDN'T have lancers of some sort.
    Cavalry, I think, may also need to be the primary subject of the uniform reform. I'm no big fan of them, but I know for certain that any decent cavalry commander of the era would roll over in his grave(s) if he saw the treatment they'd gotten in ETW.

    -So, perhaps we should Establish Austrian infantry as our 'baseline' average infantry? Give them the nice, round, stats and even price/upkeep, and judge other countries infantry stats as 'better' or 'worse' than theirs? That might make things a bit easier on the stats front.

    -Seems getting people with the appropriate l33t konputar skillz is the real challenge here :P
    Still, welcome aboard. Looks like we've got Central and Eastern Europe covered
    Tallyho lads, rape the houses and burn the women! Leave not a single potted plant alive! Full speed ahead and damn the cheesemongers!

  8. #8

    Default Re: The Shiny Mod (AKA: Adding some variety and general fixes)

    For the Hungarian units, perhaps just take the NTW approach and give the Austrians two sets of units? Austrian/Hungarian Line, Grenadiers, etc.?
    I agree.

    We may just end up removing the ability of dragoons to shoot altogether...or perhaps have a 'late dragoon' unit which acts as medium cavalry, but is no longer armed with a carbine. I think that dragoons as mounted infantry pretty much dissapeared by the the mid-1700's, right?
    I would remove ability to shoot from medium and heavy cavalry altogether and give it to the light cavalry. Although there probably were some instances of battle cavalry using their firearms in volley fire (this is true even for the napoleonic periods), main emphasis was at rapid charge with cold steel. Although all prussian cavalry were taught skirmishing drill (even cuirassiers), it was meant only for outpost duty.

    The idea with "late dragoons" is sound. ETW period is the time of gradual evolution from "almost 30YW tactics" to the "almost napoleonic tactics". I am no expert on Great northern war or any early 18 century conflicts, but i can see greater prevalence of cavalry fire (as a remnant of caracolle tactic) in the first half of the century.

    So, perhaps we should Establish Austrian infantry as our 'baseline' average infantry? Give them the nice, round, stats and even price/upkeep, and judge other countries infantry stats as 'better' or 'worse' than theirs? That might make things a bit easier on the stats front.
    Yeah, we would need some baseline to compare to. But we would need to take into account the effect of technology on the performance of combatants. For example ramrods (which are sadly missing from ETW technology tree) and the advantage of the prussian infantry (silesian wars period) equipped with iron ramrods against austrians with ramrods made form (easily breakable) wood.

  9. #9

    Default Re: The Shiny Mod (AKA: Adding some variety and general fixes)

    I have prepared some summary of prussian infantry in the SYW period.
    1) Musketeers, which should replace vanilla line infantry. There is not any logical system to the variations of prussian infantry uniforms from regiment to regiment (the devil is in the detail), so we would need probably to choose one regiment to represent all of prussian musketeers. The regiments differed in the position (and type) of lace on the coat, types of cuffs (prussian or swedish), color (and inclusion) of lapels, collar etc... Most prominent color of smallclothes (pants, waistcoat) was white or straw-yellow (differing from regiment to regiment), but there was also some rgt. with sulphur wellow and even orange or pink.

    Some examples:

    IR 1 Winterfeldt, from left to right grenadier (with musician┤s tricorne musketeer), NCO, officer, musician.


    IR 3 Anhalt-Dessau, later Kahlden


    IR 4 Kleist

    2) Fusiliers, which formed 16 regiments of infantry. They were established after conquering Silesia and recruited mainly from newly acquired territories. Alte Fritz believed, that they lack the loyalty and physical prowess of brandenburgers or pommeranians, but they served him just fine. They were issued with lighter muskets, but fought in identical manner to the rest of infantry. The small mitre cap ordinary fusiliers wore was probably meant as a form of morale support (to make them similar to the elite grenadiers).

    Fusilier regiment no. 36


    3) Grenadier battalions were filled with companies detached form their parent regiments, always two regiment to one battalion, on the campaign basis. So the grenadiers operating in one batallion wore different uniforms.

    4) Freicorps was prussian answer to threat of austrian light troops after the silesian wars. These individual formations were meant mainly for light infantry duty, but Frederick thought of them lowly (considering them the scum of the earth) and sometimes deployed them in battles like cannon fodder. Individual freicorpses often included their own cavalry or artillery or even jaegers. The uniform of most of freicorpses was similar to musketeers, but smallclothes were usually light blue, but there are numerous exotic variations (La Noble jaegers in green with kasquet, Green Kleist kroaten etc, etc...). They really should be ingame as principal prussian light troops.

    Example:
    Freicorps Du Verger (Quintus Icilius)


    5) Jaeger zu Fuss, armed with rifles, but I would limited them to one unit



    ***
    Ugh, long post. I would continue with militia and guards later.
    Last edited by Laudon; 03-14-2009 at 17:18. Reason: correcting some typing errors

  10. #10
    Undercover Lurker Member Mailman653's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Shiny Mod (AKA: Adding some variety and general fixes)

    Very nice color plates.

  11. #11

    Default Re: The Shiny Mod (AKA: Adding some variety and general fixes)

    They are from Hans Bleckwenn┤s Die friderizianischen uniformen, there are colour plates for all prussian military formations of the SYW period. If only similar work exist for Austria, but primary sources for austrian uniforms before 1762 regulations are scarce.

  12. #12

    Default Re: The Shiny Mod (AKA: Adding some variety and general fixes)

    To continue with the prussian infantry...

    6) Militia. We could replace ingame militia with garrison regiments, which were part of the army and sometimes operated alongside regular units in battle (although mainly in secondary theaters against Reichsarmee or in Ostprussia). The ingame militia is IMHO much closer to them then historically existing (territorially organized) Landmilitz, which was used mostly for garrisoning fortresses, for small actions against Swedes and Russians and for maning the Stettin flotilla.

    Garrison regiment no. 1


    7) The prussian guard was IR 15, whose inhaber (owner) was the King himself. This regiment more then deserve elite status. Although its first batallion was engaged only at Kolin, it fought very well (was thrice rodden over by cavalry, but always reformed and continued to fight). The 2nd and 3rd batallion fought at Rossbach, Leuthen (Leuthen church!), Hochkirk, Leignitz, Torgau and Burkersdorf.

    IR 15, 1st batallion (Leibgarde)


    IR 15, 2nd and 3rd batallion


    8) If we would include IR6, Grenadier garde (Potsdam giant grenadiers, detached from IR15 as a commemoration of Leib-regiment of Freidrich William, father of Alte Fritz), we should probably give them elite status too.



    ***
    I was thinking of regiments which Frederick formed from saxon POWs (pressed into service en masse), which were famous for disloyalty and desertion. If the engine allows, we could make prussian mission to annex Saxony which would reward player with several highly unreliable and expensive infantry regiments (and give austrian player some elite ex-saxon cavalry)

  13. #13
    The Dam Dog Senior Member Sheogorath's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Shiny Mod (AKA: Adding some variety and general fixes)

    Alright, so, the Prussian unit roster would look something like this, in regards to infantry:

    Infanterie

    Garrison Infantry (Miltia-type unit)

    Grenadiers (Heavy infantry)

    Guard (Elite infantry)

    Potsdam Grenadiers (Elite Guard unit)

    Fusilier (Maybe some kind of halfway-light infantry? Slightly better at shooting and a bit worse at melee.)

    Jaeger (Light infantry)

    Jaeger zu Fuzz (Elite light infantry)


    What about Prussian guard jaegers? They feature in NTW and are equipped with rifles. And extremely silly hats.

    As to Saxon infantry, why not just make them available to anybody who takes Saxony? It'd probably be much harder to make them faction AND region specific.
    Tallyho lads, rape the houses and burn the women! Leave not a single potted plant alive! Full speed ahead and damn the cheesemongers!

  14. #14
    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Shiny Mod (AKA: Adding some variety and general fixes)

    In about a week or so, I could provide some information on the Russians, Ottomans, and Mamluks, with plates and stuff. I'm sure that you could find the same info sooner, but just offering in case.

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
    If you should stand then who's to guide you?
    If I knew the way I would take you home."
    Grateful Dead, "Ripple"

  15. #15

    Default Re: The Shiny Mod (AKA: Adding some variety and general fixes)

    In about a week or so, I could provide some information on the Russians, Ottomans, and Mamluks, with plates and stuff. I'm sure that you could find the same info sooner, but just offering in case.
    Thank you for offer. My knowledge of Ottoman military is cursory at best.

    about prussian unit roster
    Yes, I agree with your suggestion.

    I was thinking about Frederick┤s rationale for establishing fusilier regiments and it occured to me that prussian player perhaps should be able to recruit musketeers in the core prussian territories only. In the newly accquired lands it is only fusiliers for him :-).

    The fusiliers could get slightly better loading times then musketeers (lighter and shorter muskets, but IMHO more as a gameplay then realistic feature) and weaker HtH stats (they were generally smaller men). Tactically, the fusiliers fought in the same way as musketeers and grenadiers.

    I would name prussian light infantry Freicorps and keep Foot Jaegers as separate unique unit (with long range and accurancy, but slower loading speed). In the SYW period, there were no guard jaegers, they are napoleonic think. Prussia have few of natural "light infantrymen" like hunters or wild frontier men of Austria┤s military border and light infantry was thought not gentemanly enough by Frederick to incorporate some of that "rabble" into the guard.

    The problem is, the ETW engine do not model light infantry way of fighting correctly. They would need more open formations (I am not thinking skirmishing screens made of alternating pairs of napoleonic light infantrymen here, but something less rigid then solid line of men), faster movement and better usage of cover... But ETW is not primarily about "kleine krieg", its main focus is on the field battle where lights were used mainly for holding broken or difficult ground.

    saxon infantry
    I have meant it more as an ingame joke. The saxon army was just fine, but they were caught by surprise by the prussians in 1756 and allowed themselves to be invested in the Pirna camp. Only some cavalry escaped and after surrender of the saxon army it continued to serve on the austrian side for the rest of the SYW (with very good service record). The fate of surrendered saxons was less then stellar, for the prussians made them to join their side (they simply transfered surrendered saxon regiments into their service), which stired up international outrage. The King soon regretted his rash decision, because these new regiment were more trouble, then utility.

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