Awful, awful naval battles......

[Warhammer3025]

Yea, i know i suck at naval battles but when my 3rd rates are unable to tear apart galleys after 2 raking passes then it gets rather old and annoying.

Also once you tech up to naval hospitals and build up a sizable battle fleet there isnt a point to fighting anymore since you'll be facing mostly crap brigs and sloops with the occasional trader so its autocalc all the way.

In the early game when everyone only has the initial starting ships it really does get quite annoying that my guys cant seem to do damage despite raking em multiple times whereas on a single fleeting pass the enemy is able to knock my ass down to the yellow. Does playing on H really give them that MUCH of a bonus

[Marquis of Roland]

Fluyts kill 4th rates dead. It seems that I'm losing about 1 ship a battle because somebody used papermache on the hull instead of wood...

Perhaps on VH battle difficulty, the enemy has a higher chance of a crazy kill shot? If that is what i'm dealing with, then

Yea on high difficulties you pretty much have to get in 3 or 4 broadsides for every one the AI gets in. Experience makes your reload time faster. I also notice they get higher percentage of "critical" hits (i.e. below the waterline, gunpowder magazine, etc.). Thus maneuverability is a bigger factor at H or VH. Even if you're ahead by 10 guns or so you still can't afford to go toe to toe with an equivalent class ship.

Fluyts do have an unusually strong hull. They're not very fast though so with a 5th or 6th rate you can outmaneuver it (or even a 4th rate). I once sunk a 4th rate in a 6th rate by outbroadsiding the AI 5 to 1 (I wanted to recreate HMS Lydia vs. the Trinidad lol).

BTW when you autocalc against weaker ships sometimes you'll still end up losing 20-30 men on a few of your ships (even ships of the line). If you play it out you might lose 4 or 5 men in your entire fleet, but it does get old lol.

[Karash]

I would just like to know why enemy surrendered ships (with masts) are not captured after the end of the battle. The post battle stuff, along with boarding seems really pathetic.

[sabana]

i agree

[sabana]

yes

[sabana]

aha

[Didz]

I have also made the mistake of taking on on a Fluyt with a Brig and getting my arse handed to me.

Mind you I realised I was in trouble right from the start. This so called Fluyt, had 42 guns on two guns decks and was manned by pirates. It actually looked like a 3rd Rate not a merchantman, and I sure as hell was not planning to try and board it.

I've actually fought against pirates in the service of Morrocco during my Ottoman camapign and their melee ability is amazing.

[antisocialmunky]

Fluyts are scary. Also, I would formally like to request a pirate mod where you get to play as the pirates. :)

[Rothe]

I wonder if the odd AI homing cannonballs are an effect of VH difficulty. I did not have this trouble with M/M (my test game) and H/H (my current game). I heard VH is giving AI units a large unit stat bonus, so I steered away from it.

I really hope they can make the AI better in hard games without giving unit stat bonuses (maybe some small morale boost could be ok).

[CavalryCmdr]

The AI arty (both land and sea) get some serious accuracy bonuses on hard and just plain silly on VH.

I've found manual broadsides to be much better at long range then close up, I've even had some luck with Sloops, bring them just within range of a manual broadside then skedaddle. Unfortunately mess up once and let the AI shoot back and it's pretty much over, and it takes forever for their pathetic fire-power to cause any notable damage.

The mechanics of sea battles is ok, IMO, but it almost seems as though once they got them working the way they wanted they never went back and "polished" it (including, most notable, unit balancing.) That being the case it would seem to indicate they just plain ran out of time.

[Jason X]

1) just to point out to all the people frustrated that they don't capture surrendered ships - the workaround is that if you continue the battle, you'll get them.

2) i am not very good at naval battles (play on H/H) but the key point in starting to enjoy them was not to bother with manual broadsides, or with brigs/sloops at all until i feel more confident in the combat system.

3) two groups of line astern seems manageable. the wind IS important enough to influence deployment and pre-engagement maneuvering, but i haven't worked out a quick way to reverse the line.

4) my first pass with the first group is always round shot - and depending on damage/guns left/enemy ship type i'll switch to chain and keep hammering with that until they have little maneuverability. only then switch to grape and board if you want. my last couple of battles was the first time i've successfully boarded whilst a battle was still going.

5) if outclassed, only use round shot.

there was a decent thread at twc (!) on naval tactics, but probably impossible to find now amongst all the rage and bluster, i have found it's been quite fun feeling my way through learning this stuff (no knowledge of naval battles at all)

[maestro]

I don't know what all the fuss is about - is it me or are most of you who are whinging about you never being able to hit ships and the like ..... simply doing it wrong?

I never have those kind of problems

Don't use broadsides unless you're very close and going broadside to a ship (d'uh) and if you really must go broadside to a ship - do it to a smaller ship. (I'd recommend just DON'T)
Always keep out of the enemy's arc of fire. Sounds obvious but you guys are whinging about the enemy having homing cannon balls. For one, they're not stupid enough to use broadsides at range and secondly - why the hell are you letting the enemy fire on you?
Don't click attack on enemy ships - they get confused and surely it's much better to do the manouvring yourself?
Use ALT-click to concentrate fire
Use chainshot - have you tried demasting an entire fleet? It's easier than you might think and then makes mopping them up a doddle.
All you have to do is position your ships where the enemy is in range and your gunners will take care of the rest. How hard can it be?

Honestly, I can't remember the last naval battle I lots, and I'm including taking on 4-5 galleons with a single Fluyt here. Tactics, tactics, tactics. I do get tired of people crying "brokend game" when in reality they're just no good at it.

Just my two cents

[Grumfoss]

Just to add another point, if you are trying to make a double line to increase your fire power.
To ease micromanagement, place your ships in the the correct positions and then select the whole fleet and create a single group. As long as you don't try to do really tight turns the dfleet will stay together quite well. This works better than having two individual groups.

Happy sailing

[crpcarrot]

I don't know what all the fuss is about - is it me or are most of you who are whinging about you never being able to hit ships and the like ..... simply doing it wrong?

I never have those kind of problems

Don't use broadsides unless you're very close and going broadside to a ship (d'uh) and if you really must go broadside to a ship - do it to a smaller ship. (I'd recommend just DON'T)
Always keep out of the enemy's arc of fire. Sounds obvious but you guys are whinging about the enemy having homing cannon balls. For one, they're not stupid enough to use broadsides at range and secondly - why the hell are you letting the enemy fire on you?
Don't click attack on enemy ships - they get confused and surely it's much better to do the manouvring yourself?
Use ALT-click to concentrate fire
Use chainshot - have you tried demasting an entire fleet? It's easier than you might think and then makes mopping them up a doddle.
All you have to do is position your ships where the enemy is in range and your gunners will take care of the rest. How hard can it be?

Honestly, I can't remember the last naval battle I lots, and I'm including taking on 4-5 galleons with a single Fluyt here. Tactics, tactics, tactics. I do get tired of people crying "brokend game" when in reality they're just no good at it.

Just my two cents

hehehe i so agree with your last comment. it seeme people would rather waste time typing a rant instead of trying to lear how things work. i'm not saying this game is perfect but maybe all if arnt just bugs. any everything is hard until how you learn how to do it.

back on topic i am no expert in naval battles but i do win most of the time but i dont expect to win with no casualties just cos my ship has x amount of guns more than the enemy.

what does Alt + click do?

[Didz]

Anyone who read C.S. Forester or Alexander Kent, will know that the best place to fire a broadside is into the enemies stern. Not only is it the weakest part of the ship, it also happenes to be where most of the officers stand and where the steering gear is located.

Of course being able to do that requires considerable seamenship and tactical awareness, but crossing an enemy stern and firing a boradside into it does work in ETW. And if the enemy ship is disabled then just sitting off their stern and firing boradside after broadside will eventually defeat any ship regardless of its relative size.

On a more expliotative note, I've noticed that in ship to ship actions the AI rarely thinks of changing tack in order to bring its other broadside to bear. Which means that if your clever enough you can almost double the weight of shot you fire at him simply by changing tack immediatley after unloading one broadside and reloading whilst you fire the other one.

[Grumfoss]

what does Alt + click do?

Pressing ALt+Right Click on an enemy ship makes the ship a priority target and all ships that have a firing arc on it will fire at it.

killing it off quicker

[Warhammer3025]

I need to watch some vids of the better naval commanders here. I mean for the life of me i just cant seem to win battles i should win or take casualties on cakewalks. I mean too many battles i've knocked enemy ships to the red zone on the hull and they still keep sailing confidence steady as can be (and sometimes i knock a hull ALL off and they're STILL AFLOAT returning accurate fire) while my pansies start surrendering or sinking the second they take a coupla cannonballs oftentimes when both sides hull are still GREEN. And no, i'm not gettign raked left and right, i cross the T on the AI plenty of times to little effect and when they get a hits on me and my guys are wavering on the brink of retreat or surrender.

I feel like i'm playing Rome naval battles again. Run away unless the odds are SERIOUSLY in my favor for a autocalc.

[HKDDJulker]

GAHHH


I Just played a naval battle during turn 1 or 2 of british grand campaign H/H. An allied dutch fleet attacks some pirates, and I decide to join the battle. This means the my ships (5th rate admiral, 6th rate, brig and 2 sloops) enter as reinforcements. My ships enter the map, and I immediately notice that each of my sloops, although they have never been in combat are down to 17/18 cannons, and 32/35 crew. Unfortunately, my admiral decided to enter the battle at the very bottom edge of the map, completely downwind, and so my ships aren't even halfway to the fight before its over. Whats more, as i'm watching my fleet sail ever so slowly towards the battle, I watch a sloop drop from 17 to 16 guns. ?!?!
End results: A Pirate Fluyt is running away, and their sloop has surrendered, while the dutch 5th rate is chasing the fluyt. I decided to click "continue the battle" to see if my sloops could possibly catch up with and then capture the fluyt before it escaped. A minute or two on 4x speed showed me that they would never catch the fluyt before it was gone, so I ended the battle manually. Post battle results show both of my sloops at 8/18 cannons, and almost no hull left. This is infuriating.

Turn 2, no combat, down 2 half ships. i'd love an explanation, but I'd prefer never have to deal with this silliness again.

I know others have experienced the same thing, this is my second time seeing it.

[Turbosatan]

A minute or two on 4x speed showed me that they would never catch the fluyt before it was gone, so I ended the battle manually. Post battle results show both of my sloops at 8/18 cannons, and almost no hull left. This is infuriating.

Turn 2, no combat, down 2 half ships. i'd love an explanation, but I'd prefer never have to deal with this silliness again.

I know others have experienced the same thing, this is my second time seeing it.

If I am reading you correctly, I can only echo what hundreds of others have said:

"Quitting the battle does incur penalties." Harsh but fair IMO. The way to prevent this -- if you cannot finish off the fleeing foe -- is to let the clock run down.

If you "continue the battle" then quit it (rather than letting the clock run down) you will incur penalties. I take it this is to stop people exploiting the game system somehow, or that CA just forgot to turn off the "penalty for quitting the battle" option for those encounters that the player has already won.

But again: you quit the battle before it ended & therefore incurred penalties. Why oh why would you assume that you would not incur a penalty?

[Didz]

I know others have experienced the same thing, this is my second time seeing it.

Can't say I've ever noticed this myself, though I haven't really been looking for it either.

Its difficult to see what justification there would be for cannons being destroyed before your ships had even been fired at. Storm damage might affect the sails or even the hull but not a cannon.

Other possibilities that spring to mind....(totally non-serious)

a) The crew threw it overboard to try and lighten the ship in the hope of catching that elusive flying fluyt.

b) The crew removed it from the broadside and levered it round to supplement the bow chasers in the hope the extra firepower might come in handy during a stern chase.

[HKDDJulker]

I guess I assumed that the penalties would make some sort of sense. Where is the logic in severely damaging 2 ships that had no hope of reaching combat?

Why would the penalty be anything else than not capturing the ship?

ugh. its only 2 sloops but damned if i can figure out why the player should be punished for not sitting on their thumbs for another 10 minutes while everyone flees upwind.

[Marquis of Roland]

That's why I never click continue no matter what lol

[Fisherking]

I always click continue! Never have a problem…I just know that it doesn’t end until the enemy is off the map and I am not quitting the battle early.

The continue is where you get most of the prize ships.

[Marquis of Roland]

Most times I'm lucky to find a teacup left floating in the water after a battle, let alone an actual ship...

Probably should lay off on the roundshot

[Didz]

I've been having quite good luck collecting free trade ships off the Dutch in my Spanish Campaign.

Obviously, not something to try in an evenly match fire fight. But if victory is more or less certain anyway I find using dismantling shot to the dismast the enemy ship and then switching to round shot and basically sailing back and forth across the bow or stern of the enemy ships until they strike will bag me the majority of their fleet as prizes.

I did try using grapeshot in the hope of limiting the damage I did to my prizes, but I found that the Dutch were quite happy to die as long as I didn't damage the paintwork, so I gave up using the grape and just resorted to blowing holes in them until they struck.

The trick I've found is to start the battle to windward of the enemy fleet and run down on them so that you can choose your angle of approach and make sure you cross their 'T' as you close. This inflicts maximum sail damage on their lead ships and your can then take down the others as they struggle to close the distance against the wind.

Once most of their masts are down slipping down to leeward will allow you the flexibility to choose the distance you want to engage them and you can easily wear-ship to sail back and forth across their bows as they try and close the range using handkerchiefs and bowspits.

If your clever and patient they rarely manage to get a shot off at you once their masts are down.

[Fisherking]

I do not often use British tactics of get close and hammer it out.

I like to take out sails.

I have even had some great victories just using a couple of sloops and perhaps a 6th rate. I find brigs weak and worthless. Sloops do a better job with fewer but stronger guns.

It usually goes better when the enemy has the wind and full sails. And I do place my ships in the corners and angle across. It works well.

When the follow the fast little ships, you can usually turn and get off a shot, then run a little and turn again.

They may try to get a shot at you but if you watch close you can usually escape without damage.

I have not gone against the Indiamen lately with just sloops and I think they may have beefed them up.

Before they were more like gnats and easily picked off by a frog on a log with a slingshot…

[Hosakawa Tito]

What I would like to see fixed is being able to give ship groups sail commands *full sail, half sail, etc..* instead of having to click on each individual ship in my line formation to make these changes. When I have the weather gage I want to slow my formation down when in position and firing range. The default setting for sails in the group is always full sail and can't be changed as a group. Makes larger naval battles a real click fest, and an eventual fur ball.

[Didz]

What I would like to see fixed is being able to give ship groups sail commands *full sail, half sail, etc..* instead of having to click on each individual ship in my line formation to make these changes.

I agree that needs to be sorted. But just for the record doesn;t it work if you just slow down the lead ship?

I would have thought that if the formation of the group is fixed then slowing the lead ship ought to cause all the others to slow down so as to maintain station on her. It seems to work that way for naturally faster ships in the formation, you can actually see them spilling wind to avoid losing station.

[Hosakawa Tito]

I agree that needs to be sorted. But just for the record doesn;t it work if you just slow down the lead ship?

I would have thought that if the formation of the group is fixed then slowing the lead ship ought to cause all the others to slow down so as to maintain station on her. It seems to work that way for naturally faster ships in the formation, you can actually see them spilling wind to avoid losing station.

I'm not sure about that, but it may work that way. However, it's not very intuitive. Group commands for speed, shot selection, etc... would be so much better. I generally try to group a mixed fleet with my ships of the line separate from 6th rates, brigs, and sloops. I'll use the heavy hitters to directly engage with roundshot and the others to cross the T astern, if possible, with chain shot to damage masts & sails and slow my opponent's ships of the line. Group commands that actually work would make the operation a whole lot smoother.

[Didz]

I'm not sure about that, but it may work that way. However, it's not very intuitive.

Agreed, it was one of the first things I noticed, and its annoying when you have the enemy fleet right where you want them but your fleet just keeps sailing past instead of slowing down and pwning them.