Dressed in black, school, gun, you get it.

[Fragony]

I think it is because we are a generation raised by women, any sort aggression is a big no, we need to talk it out, but there is nothing bad about a good punch in the face. We are males, we hit eachother and walk away as friends.

[Fixiwee]

I think it is because we are a generation raised by women, any sort aggression is a big no, we need to talk it out, but there is nothing bad about a good punch in the face. We are males, we hit eachother and walk away as friends.

...and this is how I met Tyler Durden.

[Ronin]

...and this is how I met Tyler Durden.

remember the first rule....

[Husar]

If anyone is still interested, looks like this time the debate about bullying was a bit early, heard some minister on the radio and she said she didn't know where people got that from because for all she knows the guy wasn't being bullied.
Well, maybe he was just nuts, I guess nobody really knows at this point.

[Adrian II]

I think it is because we are a generation raised by women, any sort aggression is a big no, we need to talk it out, but there is nothing bad about a good punch in the face. We are males, we hit eachother and walk away as friends.

All generations were raised by women. Even mythical Hercules who killed, raped or plundered his way across half the ancient world had a loving mom. I fully agree with you that we shouldn't raise boys on so-called feminine values, but the fact that we do so presently provides no explanation for these terrible incidents.

The logic behind them is that the perpetrators do not value their own lives and take their own demise into account when they act, as was already pointed out above. If you don't value your own life, why should you value that of others?

Kids can be very lonely even in affluent, loving families. Most take well to such inner or outer solitude, but some develop violent fantasies or revenge and domination, particularly if these are being fed by adults who make them feel powerless, obsolete or unwanted.

If these fantasies are coupled with sexual lust during puberty, killing becomes, in their fantasies, an act of quasi-sexual fulfillment. Sexual 'slights' such as the ones this young fellow apparently perceived would only reinforce his lust for the act.

I didn't work this out for myself - it is the view of a brilliant Austrian detective and criminal 'profiler' named Thomas Müller, author of Bestie Mensch ('The Human Animal') and Gierige Bestie ('The Avid Animal').

[Fragony]

I dunno, but I think a complete lack of violence leads to such excesses such as this. It's either doing nothing or going all the way. Let kids fight, what is so wrong about it, an exchange of a few punches nobody dies, nobody gets really hurt. When I spawn offspring I'll tell them to grab a piece of wood and wrap it around the heads of the people picking on them. But that is so unacceptable nowadays.

[LittleGrizzly]

Im not sure about weapon blows to the head but i for one will certainly encourage my kid to go wild with anger and hurt anyone who try's that kind of crap on him...

[Adrian II]

I dunno, but I think a complete lack of violence leads to such excesses such as this. It's either doing nothing or going all the way. Let kids fight, what is so wrong about it, an exchange of a few punches nobody dies, nobody gets really hurt. When I spawn offspring I'll tell them to grab a piece of wood and wrap it around the heads of the people picking on them. But that is so unacceptable nowadays.

I have two kids, I taught them exactly what you said (and what we were told when we were young) and they are turning out wonderful, happy, well-mannered and nobody's fool. But this has nothing to do with the topic. It's a funny thing that almost nobody ever reacts when you refer to a smart, expert profiler's view such as Müllers. It implies that maybe we could do at least something to avoid some, even if not all, of these horrible incidents. How do you vet kids for dangerous violent fantasies? Most kids have violent fantasies in some form and they turn out fine regardless. And supposing that you could filter out such kids, how do you treat them? Give them treatments that isolate them even more and feed their fantasies? It's a tough one. I know you know and like A Clockwork Orange, Frag, so you should understand the paradox here, which is that anti-violent treatment could actually increase the violence in a kid's life in some way or other.

[Fragony]

Most kids have violent fantasies in some form and they turn out fine regardless. And supposing that you could filter out such kids, how do you treat them? Give them treatments that isolate them even more and feed their fantasies? It's a tough one.

Maybe violent games are a factor then here. No SM sex for the young. (and before you ask no I am not that violent)

[Andres]

Maybe violent games are a factor then here.

Yeah, just like property taxes

[Banquo's Ghost]

It's a funny thing that almost nobody ever reacts when you refer to a smart, expert profiler's view such as Müllers. It implies that maybe we could do at least something to avoid some, even if not all, of these horrible incidents. How do you vet kids for dangerous violent fantasies? Most kids have violent fantasies in some form and they turn out fine regardless. And supposing that you could filter out such kids, how do you treat them? Give them treatments that isolate them even more and feed their fantasies? It's a tough one. I know you know and like A Clockwork Orange, Frag, so you should understand the paradox here, which is that anti-violent treatment could actually increase the violence in a kid's life in some way or other.

My own view is that we need to implement military national service across Western countries. This should be focussed on discipline, service and hard physical experience. It would provide a environment for the exercise of violence and the techniques for its control. This should be for three years minimum, from ages 16 to 19. There should be few exceptions and no entitlement to state benefits like university until completed.

Your profiler's view seems to me to be sound. Many young men these days do seem to suffer from loneliness and a sense of abstraction from society. This is not helped by a significant confusion as to what actually makes a man in the 21st century. What can a youngster do these days to earn society's respect? Teenage males have always undergone this confusion as to their role in society, but it is exacerbated by the kind of "feminisation" that Fragony touched on. I would also argue that the easy consumer society we have developed is feminised - man is a provider, and that is undermined by just whipping out a credit card with no thought as to consequence.

I submit that service life, properly handled and implemented (many modern countries with national service have it as a kind of extended holiday camp, easily avoided or endured) would shape the young into positive men, confident of their role. There is a great deal of peace-keeping to be done in the world, so once trained, they could be deployed in all sorts of challenging environments. They would also learn to handle firearms with respect and understanding as to their impact and power. One does not need an empire for the young to enjoy the benefits of international service.

A man needs challenges (not necessarily violence) that gives him a sense of who he is, who he can be, and allow him to feel he has earned respect.

In addition (and I do not jest here) there should be military brothels available so they get laid early. The "mystery" of sex ensnares the young mind for far too long; nowadays enflamed by ubiquitous pornographic imagery that implies the nirvana is easily obtainable for all but the viewer. Let them get it out of their system in an impersonal, yet sympathetic and non-pressured environment. Then perhaps, they can move on to understand that love (not so easily purchased) and its responsibilities and joys are the true goal of a grown man.

[Louis VI the Fat]

My own view is that we need to implement military national service across Western countries. This should be focussed on discipline, service and hard physical experience.

Germany has compulsory military service for men. Germany has the most school shootings in Europe.
(Although school shootings still occur so infrequently that the statistical relevance is debatable)

We're back to blaming the usual suspects: guns, girls and gaming. Much easier than child psychology, isn't it.

Müller writes somewhere that in the course of his career he always encountered such resistance

I shall blissfully ignore Müller and move on to guns, girls and gaming.

Girls are important. I do not think the motivation of this shooter can ever be understood without bearing in mind that eight of the nine students and all three of the teachers he shot dead were female.

Guns are important too. Gun culture kills. I do not mean the availability or unavailability of guns itself. I mean gun culture at large. I myself would never go on a shooter spree like this. I could see myself do a lot of things, like crushing the skull of the next person to skip the line in front of me. But I would not put on a commando costume and enter a public building for a shooting spray. Simply, because I wouldn't - literally - want be caught dead looking like an imbecile like that. To me, he looks as ridiculous as a guy with lots of tattoos and a sleevless shirt exposing his beefed up biceps. Or as ridiculous as a man in a colonel uniform, a moustache, shining boots and reflexing sunglasses.

All three of these types look powerful, manly, 'in control' to some, in varying (sub)cultures. Ridiculous to others. In gun culture, the first type looks very impressive, cool, assertive. If the culture dissapears, so too do these shootings.

[Husar]

Your profiler's view seems to me to be sound. Many young men these days do seem to suffer from loneliness and a sense of abstraction from society. This is not helped by a significant confusion as to what actually makes a man in the 21st century. What can a youngster do these days to earn society's respect? Teenage males have always undergone this confusion as to their role in society, but it is exacerbated by the kind of "feminisation" that Fragony touched on. I would also argue that the easy consumer society we have developed is feminised - man is a provider, and that is undermined by just whipping out a credit card with no thought as to consequence.

Not like I feel I'm a woman trapped in a man's body but I do often feel like I cannot come up to the standards of most men. Somehow i seem natural very lazy and no matter how often I managed to break out of this, I always fall back into this lazyness. It's like I need someone to constantly kick me in the behind to make me keep going in many situations. I'm not very lazy at work where I can see the monetary benefits and feel obliged to do what I'm paid for, even if just because of empathy for my very nice boss. But once it gets to things like learning for university I slide back into this neverending lazyness.

It doesn't help that we had company bosses at highschool telling us about their super-high hiring standards which I feel I will never be able to meet. My lack of ability for physical labour makes lower jobs seem inaccessible as well so where exactly am I supposed to see myself in the future? I really don't know and it causes a fear in me that almost startles me which makes things even worse of course. Not like I want to be violent but since you mentioned it I wanted to get that out I guess.

I don't know where my lazyness comes from, it was always there I think but more importantly I don't know how to get rid of it. Sometimes I think maybe I should have tried to get into the army, that might have helped. Or I might have become lazy again afterwards.

[Fixiwee]

I dunno, but I think a complete lack of violence leads to such excesses such as this. It's either doing nothing or going all the way. Let kids fight, what is so wrong about it, an exchange of a few punches nobody dies, nobody gets really hurt. When I spawn offspring I'll tell them to grab a piece of wood and wrap it around the heads of the people picking on them. But that is so unacceptable nowadays.

In a civilized societey, isn't sport supposed to help maintain a balanced agression level?
Because I'm sceptic how your argument would maintain in environment with lower social standards where kids get bullied and beaten up (aka Chavs).

[Fragony]

In a civilized societey, isn't sport supposed to help maintain a balanced agression level?
Because I'm sceptic how your argument would maintain in environment with lower social standards where kids get bullied and beaten up (aka Chavs).

It's normal that kids get bullied and beaten up, there is such a thing as being overly protective. I am not a parent mind you, maybe I would think differently if it was my own kid but I doubt it. These things don't change, the office is just as cruel a place. What if there is no way out? You are supposed to solve it verbally, but there is a reason you are being picked on, you can't. Solving it semi-violently, a fight after school, will get you into trouble you are supposed to be above that. What to do? You are already confused because of your hormones kicking in. Things like sexual desire and violence shouldn't be surpressed, kids messing around or beating eachother up is perfectly innocent.